Just think, if the internet was here 50-60 yrs ago....
Kabob would be arguing, " All the paleontologists say dinosaurs have two brains, one for the front half of the body, and one for the rear half."
"This new data that they have one, just doesnt count, I know!"
Hard to believe he's twice divorced and has few friends isnt it.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Yep thats understandable. Im cautious too.

What I find interesting about the submission I linked too, is the idea that the warming is the cause of the carbon, not the other way around. It doesn't mean we are not suffering climate change but it potentially means it is part of a natural event.

That ME reacted how he did gives a view of those who promote the science when it suits them. And provides some insight into what we can expect should this paper go further.

If the temperature is rising, causing an increase in carbon dioxide, what is causing the temperature increase?

It's not increased solar output:

Link

The combustion of fossil fuels [coal, oil oil products] in addition to yielding carbon dioxide and other toxic gases also produces tremendous amounts of heat which has to go somewhere. A point many fail to see or mention. Human and animal respiration and metabolic processes also provide carbon dioxide and considerable heat.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
ME is totally non-persuadable from his belief…I mean totally.

I have argued with him countless times from a basis of fact and you can’t budge him. He is the most steadfast in his beliefs of any poster here.

Hence the reason I rarely engage anymore.

Some of you use the word "belief". Do you do that just to annoy me? I think the reason you use that word is that's all you have to relate to, and you project it. I think some people are deficient in the distinction of belief requiring proof and belief that shuns proof utilizing faith as the bridge. That's the difference in science and religion, respectively.

All any of you have to do to convince me of your views, or belief, is to prove it, or offer convincing proof or evidence. It's that simple. I'm totally open minded that way.

As to my views, I have offered proof to the extent it exists.

I reserve the word "belief" to be associated with "faith". So, instead I use the words views, or opinion, or trust,

Always remember the quote from the Bible:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." That may be the ultimate appeal to authority fallacy.

So faith has nothing to do with science.

On other topics Kabob, I have offered proof you were wrong. Most times you double down because you cant admit to being wrong.
In a very few, you have admitted you were wrong. Open minded...... not at all.

quote:

All any of you have to do to convince me of your views, or belief, is to prove it, or offer convincing proof or evidence. It's that simple. I'm totally open minded that way.

Hitchens's razor is an epistemological razor that serves as a general rule for rejecting certain knowledge claims. It states "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." The razor was created by and named after author and journalist Christopher Hitchens (1949–2011).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...0(1949%E2%80%932011).

https://thinkinsights.net/strategy/hitchens-razor/

and all the scientists said the sun was shutting down helium production in the mid 60's.

so we responded.

then the ozone was getting ate away and stripped off.
so we responded.

then carbon dioxide was raising the temperatures and there was absolute proof all the ice was melting and the seas were rising.
so Joe and his buddy Obama responded by buying beach front houses.

I'm freezing my ass off at near 20 below today.
guess what?
f-em bring it on.

I'm sorry it's you Lamar, but we had that weather the first 3 wks of the month. We are in a warm stretch, up to freezing now. Strange how if the west is cold or dry or whatever, the far northeast is the opposite and vise versa.
Kabob was telling/linking how climate change had caused pockets of trees were dying. I told him not to forget invasive insects. He didnt believe it.
I gave him a list, and where to read up on the emerald ash borer predicted to destroy the entire ash tree population. He just doubled down on climate links, and would not recognize invasives. His science only beliefs.

TB40, you're so full of chit.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/lo...5WRBJXGM4WV45AJ4V6U/

Growing ghost forests full of dead trees are harbingers of the threat of rising saltwater

https://www.theguardian.com/us...er-mississippi-river

Saltwater threat to Louisiana drinking water to grow across US, experts warn

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/ghost-forest.html

What is a ghost forest?

https://athensscienceobserver....-forests-of-georgia/

THE UNDEAD GHOST FORESTS OF GEORGIA

https://www.fs.usda.gov/inside...haunt-atlantic-coast

Ghost forests haunt Atlantic Coast

=============================================

The last trip I did to and from Alaska, on the return trip I started taking pictures of forests or sections with beetle kill trees. I noticed large swaths in Canada, BC and Alberta. That has been going on for several years. Lots of fuel for fires as we saw last summer. Spruce beetle kill in SE and central AK has been ongoing for several years too.

All the way south I noticed lots of beetle kill spruce and pine, surrounded by willow and aspen in the west. As I got further south there were dying and dead pines all over. Lots of still standing dead pines. Some area had no pines left alive, the trunks still standing, surrounded by hardwoods.

The family property where I live in Georgia had over 150 acres of pine. We harvested them early because of so much loss from beetles.

Zombie Forests:

https://www.npr.org/2023/03/13...evada-zombie-forests

Climate is changing too quickly for the Sierra Nevada's 'zombie forests'
MARCH 13, 20235:06 AM ET
HEARD ON ALL THINGS CONSIDERED

https://www.smithsonianmag.com...-for-long-180981773/

California’s ‘Zombie Forests’ Are Cheating Death—but Maybe Not for Long
A fifth of conifer forests in the state’s Sierra Nevada mountains are stranded in unsuitably warm conditions

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I'm sorry it's you Lamar, but we had that weather the first 3 wks of the month. We are in a warm stretch, up to freezing now. Strange how if the west is cold or dry or whatever, the far northeast is the opposite and vise versa.

Weather now is an el nino pattern. The past three years was a la nina.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I'm sorry it's you Lamar, but we had that weather the first 3 wks of the month. We are in a warm stretch, up to freezing now. Strange how if the west is cold or dry or whatever, the far northeast is the opposite and vise versa.
Kabob was telling/linking how climate change had caused pockets of trees were dying. I told him not to forget invasive insects. He didnt believe it.
I gave him a list, and where to read up on the emerald ash borer predicted to destroy the entire ash tree population. He just doubled down on climate links, and would not recognize invasives. His science only beliefs.

It is not anyone’s singular weather that is the judge. We have been over 60 for two weeks. This is after 2 weeks in the high teens-twenties. That is the extreme. It is why we are having a reason with ticks. Overall we’re warm weather. For the last 3 years it has touched 70 multiple times as late as February with record rainfall after long periods of drought.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
and all the scientists said the sun was shutting down helium production in the mid 60's.

so we responded.

then the ozone was getting ate away and stripped off.
so we responded.

then carbon dioxide was raising the temperatures and there was absolute proof all the ice was melting and the seas were rising.
so Joe and his buddy Obama responded by buying beach front houses.

I'm freezing my ass off at near 20 below today.
guess what?
f-em bring it on.

Surely ME will provide 'science' to support the wealthy politicians living in fancy coastal areas despite the rise of the oceans?

I know, I know, Kabob.
Invasive insects dont kill trees, only climate change can do that. It's just what you said last time. There is never multiple things going on at once, with you, it's only your version.
Heym, you can be such an ignorant little twit.
My post to Lamar had nothing to do with climate change.
It had to do with when we have nice weather stretches, the northwest gets shit. When we have shit weather, they have nice weather. It has been that way as long as I have been alive. The same weather pattern does not extend coast to coast, north to south, all at the same time.
Go play with your dolls or something junior.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
Surely ME will provide 'science' to support the wealthy politicians living in fancy coastal areas despite the rise of the oceans?

They have a backdoor plan:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/mone...er-banks/ar-AA1jg7JT

Why did the National Park Service buy threatened oceanfront homes on the Outer Banks?
Story by Gareth McGrath, USA TODAY NETWORK • 1mo

====================================================

If you can't link and read this article, let me know and I'll cut and paste the whole thing. I think this answers your question, Ann.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/0...h-house-erosion.html

We Will All End Up Paying for Someone Else’s Beach House
Aug. 8, 2022

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
They have a backdoor plan:

Have you ever considered that your heroes are not heroic? That they in fact love pulling the wool over easily led heads like yours?

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I know, I know, Kabob.
Invasive insects dont kill trees, only climate change can do that. It's just what you said last time. There is never multiple things going on at once, with you, it's only your version.

You just love making up stuff.

Anyway:

https://storyateverycorner.com...festation-in-jasper/

https://www.nationalparkstrave...n-pine-beetle-threat

Jasper National Park Tackles Mountain Pine Beetle Threat
Share
By Jennifer Bain - February 22nd, 2021


https://globalnews.ca/news/935...e-beetle-population/

Mountain pine beetle population decimated in Jasper National Park after consecutive deep freezes
By Scott Hayes, Local Journalism Initiative Reporter Jasper Fitzhugh
Posted December 16, 2022 5:52 pm
Updated December 16, 2022 6:18 pm

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
They have a backdoor plan:

Have you ever considered that your heroes are not heroic? That they in fact love pulling the wool over easily led heads like yours?

First - they are not my heroes.

At least they claim to listen to the same science I do.

And yes, I see their hypocrisy.

The hypocrisy and the science are different things. I can separate the two because I want to and see the need. You can't or won't separate the two concepts because you also want to and see the need.

So, what "needs" separate us?

I have a need to establish a semblance of reality in facts and evidence, which is what I can trust.

You have a need to find your reality in something different than I do, which is hard for me to define. That's why I use the words faith and belief.

Anyway, it's a constant affirmation game that we both play, using different means.

The endeavor of real science is the closest it gets for me in the reality game.

There is a big-picture thing over-riding the whole climate science denial narratives. The hypocrisy is just a part of it, the jets and beach-front mansions, which BTW are owned by those representing the spectrum of political affiliation, not just Dems. So, in a way it's hypocritical to single out climate activists. If the bail-out scheme is to work, where the TP foots the bill, it won't be sorted by political affiliation.

For all these climate science denial conspiracy theories to work as a whole would mean that climate scientists and activists all over the world would have to be in cahoots in promoting lies under the cover of science. And there would have to be a reason, collectively. I don't see that as reality at all.

Climate science deniers don't acknowledge that. Instead, they nit-pick aspects as though it affirms a belief, while ignoring the big picture and the big message from climate scientists.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I'm sorry it's you Lamar, but we had that weather the first 3 wks of the month. We are in a warm stretch, up to freezing now. Strange how if the west is cold or dry or whatever, the far northeast is the opposite and vise versa.
Kabob was telling/linking how climate change had caused pockets of trees were dying. I told him not to forget invasive insects. He didnt believe it.
I gave him a list, and where to read up on the emerald ash borer predicted to destroy the entire ash tree population. He just doubled down on climate links, and would not recognize invasives. His science only beliefs.

It is not anyone’s singular weather that is the judge. We have been over 60 for two weeks. This is after 2 weeks in the high teens-twenties. That is the extreme. It is why we are having a reason with ticks. Overall we’re warm weather. For the last 3 years it has touched 70 multiple times as late as February with record rainfall after long periods of drought.

My wife's lived here on and off since about 1963, has a passing familiarity with the weather. Riverside was historically knows for its citrus groves and its polluting smudge pots that were to keep the citrus from freezing. Smudge pots are now sold for antiques and we haven't had a killing frost in about ten years. We commonly have tomato plants winter over outside and produce the next spring. Downtown on Magnolia Avenue is one of the original two seedless orange trees grown by Eliza Tibbetts in 1873. It's now tented to keep out invasive insects.

And Mars has warmed somewhat since 1970, atmosphere is mostly CO2 but not much of it...

Why can you not admit there is more than one thing going on at the same time Kabob?
Climate change can be one, never denied it. You deny any other effects.
Gypsy months have been here 100 yrs.
chestnut blight, from jap chestnut trees 100 yrs ago.
Dutch elm disease 100 yrs now
Beech leaf disease
All are "man" introduced, all from long before climate change. All having an impact, along with climate change. You are the one making shit up, by only addressing your science.
I'm happy to say, stream restoration will be discussed in our state legislature when they start up next session.
I took historic pictures to an open meeting at the capitol, and current photos. Along with changes to roads. Kabob, you would only call it bullying in that thread, and find things to be critical about. Never allowing the good it would do, as you are a do-nothing whinner instead of a doer.
Of course, money will be the driver of what does or does not happen. But they agreed, something should be done, even if it's a small start, on the worst streams/rivers.
I can see big picture, and see what can be done, locally, and state level, to help in anyway possible.
You can only follow, you are not a leader.

How do you reconcile your proposed view, and make statement such as -

quote:

There must be a lot of money available for such research. Scientists need a paycheck too. Controversy pays, don't you agree?

When dismissing info you dont like.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Why can you not admit there is more than one thing going on at the same time Kabob?
Climate change can be one, never denied it. You deny any other effects.
Gypsy months have been here 100 yrs.
chestnut blight, from jap chestnut trees 100 yrs ago.
Dutch elm disease 100 yrs now
Beech leaf disease
All are "man" introduced, all from long before climate change. All having an impact, along with climate change. You are the one making shit up, by only addressing your science.
I'm happy to say, stream restoration will be discussed in our state legislature when they start up next session.
I took historic pictures to an open meeting at the capitol, and current photos. Along with changes to roads. Kabob, you would only call it bullying in that thread, and find things to be critical about. Never allowing the good it would do, as you are a do-nothing whinner instead of a doer.
Of course, money will be the driver of what does or does not happen. But they agreed, something should be done, even if it's a small start, on the worst streams/rivers.
I can see big picture, and see what can be done, locally, and state level, to help in anyway possible.
You can only follow, you are not a leader.

Yeah I think the point that gets me, is I have never denied climate change. I have got into some pretty serious arguments on here supporting it. But I can be open too new information at least until its proven incorrect. As far as I can tell despite MES claims, the initial paper has been re researched and published in the Royal british society'e journal As part of a paper determining if a data analysiss and gathering method is correct and useful, and they have come out and said the only thing they see is that the result is more positive than initially reported.

None of that says we should not be doing our bit to limit our carbon emissions, and there are plenty of god reasons to do so. But understanding the whole picture of what is driving climate change, including natural phenomenon is damned important and we do science a disservice if we close our eyes too the natural processes going on alongside our own.

Shanks, that is a point I am continually trying to make. Lets not get bogged down in the one and only.
Fossil fuel, carbon and so on.
That is only one piece of what we should be looking at to keep the lands and waters healthy.
I try to impress on landowners where I am to do some logging. Diversity is key to a healthy woodland. Leave some of those big old trees, they are the best seed producers, even if they will never make a saw log. Leave some dead and dying trees. Woodpeckers make holes in them, that make nests for other birds, that eat pests that attack the trees. It is harder for invasives like qypsy moth caterpillars to damage a whole woodlot, if it is intermixed with species they dont eat. Pine blister rust trees should be cut and removed, even if it's only a few trees. No economically, it's not worth it, but the pine stand is as a whole.
So much that can be done like the impervious surface law I helped get passed 7-8 yrs ago.
All these things can and do make a difference, so why not address them?

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Why can you not admit there is more than one thing going on at the same time Kabob?

Why do you keep insisting that sentence is true, along with your other BS? You word it as a question, but it's loaded.

Why should I listen to you when you lie like that?

I shouldn't have to read your chit and sort out the real from the made up.

Maybe some of the stuff you say and think has good basis, but you mix in stuff that just ain't true.

It's easier to just dismiss all of it as BS.

Another alarmist article/video, which agrees with Attenborough:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/weat...f328e80ea3b02d&ei=60

Scientist issues ‘aggressive’ warning about looming crisis threatening mankind: ‘We have a small window’
Story by Ben Raker • 1d

So you are unable to support things you agree with separately? I can sort your bullshit and agree with some things within your links.
That you are unable to, says a good deal about you, and nothing else.
It's why you can only follow your beliefs about things.

I didn't say I was unable to sort your BS. I said I didn't want to go to the trouble.

One example is your last post. There's nothing to sort out. It's all BS.

And it's making it personal.

And it has nothing to do with the OP premise and title.

It's your very own squirrely chit. Etc.

I'm not too worried about the cold.

it gets cold here every winter, that's the way it works when you live in the mountains.

some years we get 8-9 foot of snow, and some we only get 4-6 here in the valley.
they get more up on the mountain tops though... a lot more.

so just today a planet scientist was explaining the relationship between water [funny he called it water rain because on some planets it's stuff like Iron or helium or whatever]
and carbon and how an active living planet needs the water to lubricate the inner workings of the planet.
you know like plate tectonics.

but the biggest thing he was talking about was how the water rain scrubbed the carbon out of the air, keeping the carbon dioxide from building up in the atmosphere.

it seems to hold it down in the 300 PPM area as long as it rains or snows or is cold enough to freeze the water in the air trapping the carbon pulling it down to the ground where it is recycled into the system.

I guess that's why I can see all the way to all the mountains around here.

Apparently that's why the seas are a carbon trap. And when they warm they don't trap as much and maybe release some stored.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/weat...1c06fa9f636c6a&ei=15

Alaska's Arctic Rivers Turning Alarmingly Bright Orange Color, Raising Fears of Ecosystem Disaster
Story by Todd Betzold • 6h

https://www.msn.com/en-us/heal...dc57e04097c53b&ei=84

Zombie deer disease is a 'slow moving disaster'. Why scientists say humans should 'be prepared'.
Story by Sara Chernikoff, USA TODAY • 5h

https://www.msn.com/en-us/weat...80016a1a3577c9&ei=78

Climate change may lead to the collapse of civilization
Story by Joyce Sundy • 21h

Well Kabob lets look at things.
when I told of going to state capitol to talk and show pictures in hopes of stream restoration, to the open meeting....
Did you ask questions? Like, how many miles of work needs to be done, how much will it cost, what are the temps of the flat water compared to the deep water?
No, none of that. You only attacked me personally for bringing it to their attention.
You think your the Greta Thunberg of ARPF. Or maybe you have the hots for her? Whatever it is, your ego is so fragile as to be seen as the climate champion, you attack someone who does more than link articles. Go back and read your posts, and you will see, you acted like an ass.
So, your whine of me attacking you, and not staying on topic falls on deaf ears.
Maybe you change your ways, and it will come back around??

I'm not looking at anything with you.

Liars aren't worth the time. In your case I'm sure you do it to draw attention and for relevance, when you really have nothing to contribute to the conversation.

I'm done with you. Just responding to you causes me to feel dirty, letting you drag me down to your level. I kick myself for it. I'm a better man than that.

In other words, you dont want to see I'm right.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
How do you reconcile your proposed view, and make statement such as -

quote:

There must be a lot of money available for such research. Scientists need a paycheck too. Controversy pays, don't you agree?

When dismissing info you dont like.

You know, I seriously am interested in a reply too this. My reason- when I debate I focus on whats known and what information presents a picture of the facts. I never make illusions too other interferences.
This statement comes across as a weak off the ball effort to discredit information. Something Id expect to see you claim your opponent of doing.

From respect, I'll answer.

By "proposed view" I'm assuming to are referring to the "science" abstract and article you linked.

And I didn't just dismiss it. I debunked it. Need I repeat myself, since one may assume you didn't understand that the first time? So, it has practically nothing to do with whether I like it or not. It is partially true, but conflicts with other science findings. As I understand it, your article says rising CO2 is an effect of warming rather than a cause. Scientists have said over and over that rising CO2 is a cause of warming, which in turn is an effect, then an additional cause. Your article appears to be not the whole truth, designed that way for a reason, and much of it has already been studied.

Just let me know if you need more explanation for my view on it.

As to my sarcastic comment - Deniers have claimed they do it for the money, so I just affirmed.

Why would suppose climate scientists come up with a study concluding CO2 is an effect of warming unidirectionally?

And moreover, why would you believe it and keep harping about it when I've shown you how it's flawed in the conclusions.

ME, You didnt debunk it. You found opinions on the issue that agreed with your own.

I posted the original paper, then when you challenged that I posted a completely different paper that used the original as part of a completely different study, the side effect of it being that it confirmed the original. The last study being published after the day of your criticisms. Whats more, there is a further paper available that did set out to debunk the original, yet ended up confirming it as well, yet still the scientists involved came to the conclusion that it was a timeframe error.

BY proposed view, i meant your statement that controversy pays. Irony does not display well in this format. Not as easy to decipher as hypocrisy.

As too harping about it and why I beleive it.

Im not harping about it. Im focussing on your inability to understand a proper position on science and how shallow your belief system is when information that contradicts what you think is presented. You see, I dont beleive the papers presented. Remember I have always said I can see the grey areas. I simply dont discount the papers information and treat them as a possibility that is worth looking further into as there seems to be something interesting going on.
I am open too the idea that our warming might be partially at least, of natural process alongside our own processes.
Categorically condemning such an idea because it threatens your political position is a misuse of science.

I'm a plus 1 on your post Shanks.
Maybe you have to live and work the land for years to understand things like what you said.
I know the legislators I talked to, it never entered their minds to see stream damage as multiple causes.
Oh, shanks, just to share with you....
Why I would drive 2 hours to present my info to a bunch of stuffed shirts? Because I can score a couple free pens left on the tables when people leave.

I rest my case I made above.

Hence the reason I have just quit engaging…it is an exercise in futility.

The best reason not to stop engaging at all is that if you do so, the opponents and more meaningfully, the disinterested, feel you have agreed with the opposition and have lost the debate.

I certainly don’t see any real proof that AGW inthe form of CO2 emissions, is the sole, or even the main cause of what we are seeing.

I don’t doubt there are changes… but it’s way too simplistic to say it’s all carbon.

Way too many other items that can be problematic- many of which are human generated or exacerbated.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I'm a plus 1 on your post Shanks.
Maybe you have to live and work the land for years to understand things like what you said.
I know the legislators I talked to, it never entered their minds to see stream damage as multiple causes.
Oh, shanks, just to share with you....
Why I would drive 2 hours to present my info to a bunch of stuffed shirts? Because I can score a couple free pens left on the tables when people leave.

Haha, Down here we don't call them stuffed shirts. we call them shiny arse's, due to the amount of polishing thier chairs give thier trousers.

I just do not know why the basic concept that science is simply the best information available at the time, bu that that can change, is so hard too grasp.
That to hold that concept you must be open to new information and that does not mean you must jump on a result immediately as the truth, but that you should be prepared to consider it and where it may lead.

To be fair though I did not post that initial paper to get into a discussion on climate change. I am mischecvious and I partly posted it knowing what reaction Id get while also being interested enough in its possibility to see it as a worthwhile topic of discussion. we are all old friends and I know where to jostle for a reaction.


My sense of humour is such that I chuckle at the thought of posting articles such as this.

https://cowboystatedaily.com/2...orados-wolf-release/