https://www.bloomberg.com/opin...war-3-niall-ferguson

I guess the only opinion I'd voice regarding the article would be my support for the unceasing diplomacy aimed at Vlad and Russia. It seems important to me to not allow Russia to simply fall apart and fail. I think it prudent to have on offer a diverse portfolio of safety nets and bailouts.

Yes, I agree, a very interesting and informative article.

I think this is one of those world events where one's gut intuition is the thing. That's because we really are so uninformed, and also, it's so difficult to measure human behavior on this scale based on our own individually.

Personally, I think that the fact that this situation exists, is cause to think the worst may happen. Who figured it could get this bad?

I think history is repeating itself, yet the consequences could be much worse than all previous conflicts combined.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opin...war-3-niall-ferguson

I guess the only opinion I'd voice regarding the article would be my support for the unceasing diplomacy aimed at Vlad and Russia. It seems important to me to not allow Russia to simply fall apart and fail. I think it prudent to have on offer a diverse portfolio of safety nets and bailouts.

So, what appeasement, pacification, prize, would be sufficient for a monster?

===============================================

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...4f3aa3bfa08db365bb9a

There’s a way to end Putin for good
Opinion by Yulia Latynina, opinion contributor

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

So, what appeasement, pacification, prize, would be sufficient for a monster?

Oh Mother Fucker! ( With love!)

Who the fuck cares?!?!?!?!

America is $ billions into the hostilities in Ukraine, what dollar value do we put on peace? America spends $60 billion annually for our nuclear weapons program, what dollar value do we put on peace?
https://www.cbo.gov/publicatio...240#:~:text=By%20CBO's%20estimate%2C%20the%20amounts,2030%20period%2C%20%24102%20billion%20more

America spent $trillions in the Gulf Wars, and the Vietnam War cost the United States $1 trillion.
https://www.thebalancemoney.co...billion%20per%20year.

Rather than spend blood and treasure in destruction, it maybe an idea worth entertaining to invest in the preservation of the blood if not the treasure. I'd happily pay off Vlad to secure his nukes. I'd happily pay off Vlad to disembark in Dubai for a retirement in his sandy, sweaty Villa.

Vlad has lost his invasion, that's not a question. The dilemma for tomorrow is how much longer do we all risk the senseless loss of life?

How will you convince Vlad he wont leave a legacy similar to Peter the great. Can he be bought out of that notion?

Yes, the article is interesting.

I don't know how to placate Putin without sending a message to the world that aggression against other countries will be rewarded.

Screw Putin. Let him fail. Maybe a replacement by the Russians themselves will leave someone rational in charge.

Mean while Iran has sent warships into the south pacific. Should we invite them in for a warm cup of tea and tell them all is ok, we dont want no trouble, do what you want?

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Mean while Iran has sent warships into the south pacific. Should we invite them in for a warm cup of tea and tell them all is ok, we dont want no trouble, do what you want?

What's this "we"? and who in the frig is concerned with Iran?
America has been running off Iranian canoes for decades.

You Kiwis better man up a little.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Yes, the article is interesting.

I don't know how to placate Putin without sending a message to the world that aggression against other countries will be rewarded.

Screw Putin. Let him fail. Maybe a replacement by the Russians themselves will leave someone rational in charge.

Has never been a reward, rather, an exit.

Vlad has lost, not disputable.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Yes, the article is interesting.

I don't know how to placate Putin without sending a message to the world that aggression against other countries will be rewarded.

Screw Putin. Let him fail. Maybe a replacement by the Russians themselves will leave someone rational in charge.

Leaving 6k nukes to a "maybe" seems flawed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...he%20United%20States'%201%2C644.

How about pursuing a managerial interest?

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Mean while Iran has sent warships into the south pacific. Should we invite them in for a warm cup of tea and tell them all is ok, we dont want no trouble, do what you want?

What's this "we"? and who in the frig is concerned with Iran?
America has been running off Iranian canoes for decades.

You Kiwis better man up a little.

irans got 85 million people we have 5. We will have to man up alot

The other side is that by putting everything into a anti-Russian basket, we are enabling the chicoms.

Frankly, while Putin is certainly a concern short term, he is not the concern long term. Even if Russia absolutely conquered Ukraine and decided to make it a province of Russia, it will cost them a lot of resources just to continue internal security. FFS, they had actual Nazis running around in the 1950's that they had not been able to subdue despite Soviet era economic size and Stalinist willingness to utilize any means necessary to subdue Ukraine, it didn't "take."

We are once again fighting banana republic wars while ignoring the impending colossus (then, Germany/Japan; now China as far as a serious existential threat.)

As to the Iranians, until they get nukes, they are at best a second rate regional power. They could play pirate and affect commerce in the pacific rim, but they have no chance of invading Australia or New Zealand even minus US/UK involvement as long as they even pay minimal attention to self defense. I know Australia has a small but effective navy, and adequate ground forces to stop any Iranian incursion. Enough to protect their trade routes? No.

New Zealand? I don't know. The ANZAC's proved they can fight, but the current government seems too inclined to carp that the US is being too domineering and that by being nice everyone will leave them alone.

You do need to up your self defense capabilities there... you do have a great moat and rugged terrain, so you don't need a huge investment... but if we get occupied with our own messes, you had better be able to make the chicoms and whoever think you are not worth the effort it would take to take over.

Covid showed how messed up everyone can get from a nontraditional war... and as mentioned above, no one seems to want to admit just how culpable the chicoms are with this, even if it was not deliberate - which seems at least debatable at this point.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Mean while Iran has sent warships into the south pacific. Should we invite them in for a warm cup of tea and tell them all is ok, we dont want no trouble, do what you want?

What's this "we"? and who in the frig is concerned with Iran?
America has been running off Iranian canoes for decades.

You Kiwis better man up a little.

irans got 85 million people we have 5. We will have to man up alot

Oh bullshit. A) whether I like it or not Uncle Sam remains foaming at the mouth to run off to, ( for example,) New Zealand to fight Islamists in the Southern Hemisphere, and more importantly, B) 85 million tent making, camel breakin, girl cousin humping, sword swinging Persians that never could figger how to fire a T-62 tank ain't gonna cross the wide and far sea to hunt Chamois.

What went wrong in nz had its genesis in ww2. We lost more men per capita than any on the other allied nations, and it hurt us. 25 - 30 years later and we were still asking why we should die for northern hemisphere problems, when the nuclear issue became a political football with nuclear testing in the pacific. The anti war sentiment morphed into anti nuclear, and so we alienated ourselves from our traditional partners- the ones we had died for and with. That mix of antiwar, and nuke, has continued with our left wing govts, and we are drastically underfunded. But it doesn't help when the US wont let us sell our airplanes or other old equipment. We do really need to get back on side with our allies and invest in our armed forces again. But it will be a hard sell.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Mean while Iran has sent warships into the south pacific. Should we invite them in for a warm cup of tea and tell them all is ok, we dont want no trouble, do what you want?

What's this "we"? and who in the frig is concerned with Iran?
America has been running off Iranian canoes for decades.

You Kiwis better man up a little.

irans got 85 million people we have 5. We will have to man up alot

Oh bullshit. A) whether I like it or not Uncle Sam remains foaming at the mouth to run off to, ( for example,) New Zealand to fight Islamists in the Southern Hemisphere, and more importantly, B) 85 million tent making, camel breakin, girl cousin humping, sword swinging Persians that never could figger how to fire a T-62 tank ain't gonna cross the wide and far sea to hunt Chamois.

I know, Im making an allegory too the current circumstance in Ukraine. Fact is if we had a land border with Iran we would stand no chance. We will rely on super powers to keep us safe. Why are iranian ships in our neighbourhood? it has nothing to do with us, they are there to rub your noses in it is why.

PS DoC, You dont think Iran talked with russia and China before sending those ships down here?

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Mean while Iran has sent warships into the south pacific. Should we invite them in for a warm cup of tea and tell them all is ok, we dont want no trouble, do what you want?

What's this "we"? and who in the frig is concerned with Iran?
America has been running off Iranian canoes for decades.

You Kiwis better man up a little.

irans got 85 million people we have 5. We will have to man up alot

Oh bullshit. A) whether I like it or not Uncle Sam remains foaming at the mouth to run off to, ( for example,) New Zealand to fight Islamists in the Southern Hemisphere, and more importantly, B) 85 million tent making, camel breakin, girl cousin humping, sword swinging Persians that never could figger how to fire a T-62 tank ain't gonna cross the wide and far sea to hunt Chamois.

I know, Im making an allegory too the current circumstance in Ukraine. Fact is if we had a land border with Iran we would stand no chance. We will rely on super powers to keep us safe. Why are iranian ships in our neighbourhood? it has nothing to do with us, they are there to rub your noses in it is why.

Hey Man,....... seriously,.....

Iran ain't gonna nothing ever for no reason. The lack of interest America has had for the well-being of Iran has exponentially decreased every day since November 4th 1979.

"The more you fuck around, the more you'll find out." applies more to Persia than any other culture on earth. My Dad repeatedly suggested a " glass parking lot" clear back in the 1980s. I concur.

Why are they there Scott? we actually get on with them not too badly. They have no interests here, they have no beef with us. They are there because you cant stop them.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Why are they there Scott? we actually get on with them not too badly. They have no interests here, they have no beef with us. They are there because you cant stop them.

"Can't" why would we? The Iranian Canoes will paddle where the Iranian Canoes do and who cares?
Completely ridiculous.

I think you are missing the point in your superiority.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

So, what appeasement, pacification, prize, would be sufficient for a monster?

Oh Mother Fucker! ( With love!)

Who the fuck cares?!?!?!?!

America is $ billions into the hostilities in Ukraine, what dollar value do we put on peace? America spends $60 billion annually for our nuclear weapons program, what dollar value do we put on peace?
https://www.cbo.gov/publicatio...240#:~:text=By%20CBO's%20estimate%2C%20the%20amounts,2030%20period%2C%20%24102%20billion%20more

America spent $trillions in the Gulf Wars, and the Vietnam War cost the United States $1 trillion.
https://www.thebalancemoney.co...billion%20per%20year.

Rather than spend blood and treasure in destruction, it maybe an idea worth entertaining to invest in the preservation of the blood if not the treasure. I'd happily pay off Vlad to secure his nukes. I'd happily pay off Vlad to disembark in Dubai for a retirement in his sandy, sweaty Villa.

Vlad has lost his invasion, that's not a question. The dilemma for tomorrow is how much longer do we all risk the senseless loss of life?

Neville Chamberlain would be so proud of you Scott.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

So, what appeasement, pacification, prize, would be sufficient for a monster?

Oh Mother Fucker! ( With love!)

Who the fuck cares?!?!?!?!

America is $ billions into the hostilities in Ukraine, what dollar value do we put on peace? America spends $60 billion annually for our nuclear weapons program, what dollar value do we put on peace?
https://www.cbo.gov/publicatio...240#:~:text=By%20CBO's%20estimate%2C%20the%20amounts,2030%20period%2C%20%24102%20billion%20more

America spent $trillions in the Gulf Wars, and the Vietnam War cost the United States $1 trillion.
https://www.thebalancemoney.co...billion%20per%20year.

Rather than spend blood and treasure in destruction, it maybe an idea worth entertaining to invest in the preservation of the blood if not the treasure. I'd happily pay off Vlad to secure his nukes. I'd happily pay off Vlad to disembark in Dubai for a retirement in his sandy, sweaty Villa.

Vlad has lost his invasion, that's not a question. The dilemma for tomorrow is how much longer do we all risk the senseless loss of life?

Neville Chamberlain would be so proud of you Scott.

Spoken like a true chicken hawk.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

So, what appeasement, pacification, prize, would be sufficient for a monster?

Oh Mother Fucker! ( With love!)

Who the fuck cares?!?!?!?!

America is $ billions into the hostilities in Ukraine, what dollar value do we put on peace? America spends $60 billion annually for our nuclear weapons program, what dollar value do we put on peace?
https://www.cbo.gov/publicatio...240#:~:text=By%20CBO's%20estimate%2C%20the%20amounts,2030%20period%2C%20%24102%20billion%20more

America spent $trillions in the Gulf Wars, and the Vietnam War cost the United States $1 trillion.
https://www.thebalancemoney.co...billion%20per%20year.

Rather than spend blood and treasure in destruction, it maybe an idea worth entertaining to invest in the preservation of the blood if not the treasure. I'd happily pay off Vlad to secure his nukes. I'd happily pay off Vlad to disembark in Dubai for a retirement in his sandy, sweaty Villa.

Vlad has lost his invasion, that's not a question. The dilemma for tomorrow is how much longer do we all risk the senseless loss of life?

Neville Chamberlain would be so proud of you Scott.

Spoken like a true chicken hawk.

You never did explain how your "airy words" differ from mine.

There is not much to admire in your kneel down for Putin stance. We are getting a pretty darn good bargain so far, how many American lives have been lost? Or maybe you are just eager to live like a good comrade.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Yes, the article is interesting.

I don't know how to placate Putin without sending a message to the world that aggression against other countries will be rewarded.

Screw Putin. Let him fail. Maybe a replacement by the Russians themselves will leave someone rational in charge.

Has never been a reward, rather, an exit.

Vlad has lost, not disputable.

If he loses, it will be because he decides to lose. Russian mobilization that would eventually result in the total destruction of Ukraine is simply a matter of Russian will. If the Russians decide, it will happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Yes, the article is interesting.

I don't know how to placate Putin without sending a message to the world that aggression against other countries will be rewarded.

Screw Putin. Let him fail. Maybe a replacement by the Russians themselves will leave someone rational in charge.

Has never been a reward, rather, an exit.

Vlad has lost, not disputable.

If he loses, it will be because he decides to lose. Russian mobilization that would eventually result in the total destruction of Ukraine is simply a matter of Russian will. If the Russians decide, it will happen.

More precisely if the Russian people are willing to pay the price of victory, they will win, barring other nations actually willing to fight getting involved.

I don’t disagree with helping Ukraine, but I don’t agree with Biden’s blank check approach.

Weapons and training, great. Food and supplies, great.

Cash… not so much.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

So, what appeasement, pacification, prize, would be sufficient for a monster?

Oh Mother Fucker! ( With love!)

Who the fuck cares?!?!?!?!

America is $ billions into the hostilities in Ukraine, what dollar value do we put on peace? America spends $60 billion annually for our nuclear weapons program, what dollar value do we put on peace?
https://www.cbo.gov/publicatio...240#:~:text=By%20CBO's%20estimate%2C%20the%20amounts,2030%20period%2C%20%24102%20billion%20more

America spent $trillions in the Gulf Wars, and the Vietnam War cost the United States $1 trillion.
https://www.thebalancemoney.co...billion%20per%20year.

Rather than spend blood and treasure in destruction, it maybe an idea worth entertaining to invest in the preservation of the blood if not the treasure. I'd happily pay off Vlad to secure his nukes. I'd happily pay off Vlad to disembark in Dubai for a retirement in his sandy, sweaty Villa.

Vlad has lost his invasion, that's not a question. The dilemma for tomorrow is how much longer do we all risk the senseless loss of life?

Neville Chamberlain would be so proud of you Scott.

Spoken like a true chicken hawk.

You never did explain how your "airy words" differ from mine.

There is not much to admire in your kneel down for Putin stance. We are getting a pretty darn good bargain so far, how many American lives have been lost? Or maybe you are just eager to live like a good comrade.

I had hoped you'd brighten up a bit but I can see my patience was wasted.

Easy part first. I've never suggested kneeling, bowing, giving up or knuckling under to Putin. I'd ask how dumb do you have to be to surrender to the defeated, but then you are the shining example. Vlad has been beaten any way anyone can look at it and yer still all sweaty about being a "good comrade". Damn you are dumb.

Since the outset I have remained skeptical about Vlads capacity to anything and I have expressed very reasonable concern about the Russian nuke stockpile, apparently about 6k of them. The blathering idiots here that think it right to assign blame or disavow responsibility obviously have no idea what a loose nuke or a dozen of them can do. If your so fucking retarded that you think blaming Vlad for a loose nuke ending up in a container ship in Boston or across our open border in Topeka I wish I could say you deserve the fallout, but you wouldn't be there alone so I guess not.

Due in no small part to our obvious history I have very much resisted the rush to conflict and war. We see here in another topic there's now a defense being made of our war in Iraq. Sorry to say that's very believable since we just don't seem to learn. Your neanderthal mug should be front and center there.

Me? Do I want to fight on a foreign shore in a conflict that poses no threat to my life or liberty? Absolutely not. I hold chicken hawks like you in particular distain because you certainly won't either, you'll happily beat the drum for others to die for your politics and lucky for America, write your check to the IRS in support.

Plain enough or should I write in crayon?

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:


Plain enough or should I write in crayon?

Got it


Vlad is far from beaten, read up on Russian history, he has millions of expendable men and all the time in the world, years if need be. The longer this drags out, the more people die the more it benefits the Russians. Your fear of the Russian State collapsing or of a nuke in Topeka seems more than a little unlikely. What seems more likely is if we do not support Ukraine and Russia wins, which they will without our support, then rogue states like North Korea will be embolden and become even more aggressive, as will the Russians.

Damn you sure are dumb to bet on the long odds.

oh...and your words, a bit airy tonight.

Do we have a history im unaware of of nukes going astray? It seems to me that any nation or failed state prepared to sell them might just as easily be the target of those same nukes should that happen?

We shouldn't bow and scrape to Putin just because he's got nukes.

Lots of countries have nukes. We can't roll over to all of them and expect the world to remain the kind of place we want to live.

Support Ukraine!

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Do we have a history im unaware of of nukes going astray? It seems to me that any nation or failed state prepared to sell them might just as easily be the target of those same nukes should that happen?

Reeeeeeaaaaalllly not what I said, but don't let me stop you from joining the hysterics.

If I can help you along, Boogie Monster Vlad is everywhere!

Hmm, nit sure where you are coming from.

I dont see him as a boogie monster- I would have thought that was your position with your deference too him. I see him as weak and eminently beatable as long as the west has a little bit of backbone and as long as Ukraine is willing, which it seems to be.

If I read you wrong then sorry, I just dont understand what you could seriously mean otherwise by pay Vlad to secure his nukes? This idea seems risable. I mean who's going to pay him anything in trust and who would expect him to hand them over. Not happening no matter how much you dream.

It's like it's this shocking newsflash that we have to use a buyout to get the dictators to boogie.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi

But yeah! It's bowing and scraping! Hard for me to believe the repetitive stupidity.

Buy him out? He's already the richest man in the world.

He doesn't care about money anymore. He wants more power, not less.

It's a pipe dream, Scott.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
It's like it's this shocking newsflash that we have to use a buyout to get the dictators to boogie.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi


But yeah! It's bowing and scraping! Hard for me to believe the repetitive stupidity.

Hard for me to believe you live in a world where you think it is possible that Putin will quietly go away if we pay him enough.




Come back to the real world Scott, fantasy land should have been left in your teens.

I mean just think for one second. if he leaves power hes a dead man. He's made too many enemys and killed too many people to be safe anywhere- even the kremlin. Just look at how he empties rooms before he enters and has actors playing civilians and his staged events. He knows one mistake and hes a goner, so why would he abdicate his power and trust others to look after him.

Certainly not an option if it isn't offered?

Never know if you don't try?

I guess I should consider myself lucky to have all these Putin experts than know and can adamantly assure us what vlad thinks and will do before he does it.

The certainly of the Boulderites, the Kiwis and Kentuckians is comforting.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Certainly not an option if it isn't offered?

Never know if you don't try?

I guess I should consider myself lucky to have all these Putin experts than know and can adamantly assure us what vlad thinks and will do before he does it.

The certainly of the Boulderites, the Kiwis and Kentuckians is comforting.

Seems like someone is attempting to talk to to Putin regularly to me, Erdogan a couple of days ago. Putin does not want to end this war, that is clear.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...to-budge/ar-AA160UXT

quote:

Never know if you don't try?

Fortunately, there are many things we don't need to try to know they're a bad idea.

I don't need to try jumping off a tall building to know it would kill me.

I don't need to try petting a wild animal in a trap to know it would bite me.

And we don't need to offer Putin a trillion bucks--if you think one trillion would be enough--to know he's not going away quietly.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Certainly not an option if it isn't offered?

Never know if you don't try?

I guess I should consider myself lucky to have all these Putin experts than know and can adamantly assure us what vlad thinks and will do before he does it.

The certainly of the Boulderites, the Kiwis and Kentuckians is comforting.

Seems like someone is attempting to talk to to Putin regularly to me, Erdogan a couple of days ago. Putin does not want to end this war, that is clear.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...to-budge/ar-AA160UXT

Great! I'm glad the effort is being made.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Never know if you don't try?

Fortunately, there are many things we don't need to try to know they're a bad idea.

I don't need to try jumping off a tall building to know it would kill me.

I don't need to try petting a wild animal in a trap to know it would bite me.

And we don't need to offer Putin a trillion bucks--if you think one trillion would be enough--to know he's not going away quietly.

Why only a trillion? Five wouldn't be better? Ten? Be conservative and offer a half or quarter trillion?

Iraq and Afghanistan cost,

https://www.brown.edu/news/2021-09-01/costsofwar

$8trillion, but hey! No nukes there!

If you're just going to make shit up Roland why not throw in some alien invasion or asteroid strike?