I am developing loads for my national match M1A and AR. Both have national match style peep sights.

I have developed loads for accuracy mostly with scoped rifles. To do this, I have tweaked several variables (powder, bullet mass, OAL, etc.) and observed the group size. This is a fairly simple process with a scope.

I am not exactly sure how to do this with an open sight rifle. It is harder to have a precise point of aim at 100 yards with peep sights, and in my opinion, it makes tweaking a load more difficult.

Surely, many in this forum have dealt with this. Could anyone provide some direction on this?

Thanks.

When I was shooting my Supermatch M1A in competition, I bought a scope mount so I could put a 10x Leupold on it,for the purpose of evaluating small variations in my loads. Often, with a good match rifle, you need to shoot 200 yds from a rest in order to realisitcally determine the BEST combination. I can't speak for others, but I need a scope to do that efficiently.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Edwards:
When I was shooting my Supermatch M1A in competition, I bought a scope mount so I could put a 10x Leupold on it,for the purpose of evaluating small variations in my loads. Often, with a good match rifle, you need to shoot 200 yds from a rest in order to realisitcally determine the BEST combination. I can't speak for others, but I need a scope to do that efficiently.

Agreed! I did the same for my Colt HBAR and M1. MY match load for the AR was 69 SMK and 25.5 WW748 as I recollect (could have been Varget, have to check)! Don't think the scope changes anything.
Peter.

Not match guns but....my Winchesters all have reciever sights and all shoot cast bullets. I use the same process that I use for my scoped rifles with one exception.
I start my testing at 50 yards to get the rifle on paper, then move to 100 yards, then out to 200 yards.
It's worked for 45-70, 30-06, 405 Winchester and will work for 375 Whelen when it gets back from the gunsmith.

Jim

WindLogik,
Pretty much the same way for either rifle but I think you maybe reinventing the wheel.

Check out White Oak Precision for some of your questions, http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/info-reloading.htm

The National Match Forum will answer more, http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?&CODE=00 (Login required, join the forum we'll see you there.)

German Salazar has more long range info than you'll read in a night, http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/

Sniper's Hide has a lot of good reloading info, not just loads but good how to.

What Sam said seems proper to me. As for precise sighting point w/ peep sights(NM or otherwise) I think you will find the groups/accuracy will be quite good. I am assuming your are going to use these rifles in Match shooting, Across the Course, etc. 2,3 & 600yds and a suggestion would be to take a 6 o'clock hold on the bullseye(pumpkin on a post) and you can vary the sight picture by seeing a slight line of white above the post or no white(flat tire image) or a center of mass. Depends on what your eyes works best on, varies from shooter to shooter. I prefer the line of white approach for that lets me check to see if right or left hold is lined up and adjust elevation accoringly. For load testing, bench shooting is fine, but once in sling/position it becomes a whole different set of variables. An old saying, but "it's not the wand, but the magician"

When I used to shoot alot of comp.we would always do ourfinal testing at 300yds go to range with your new load 10 or 20 rds each tweeked up and down 2-3 10ths shoot your groups and will see which one your rifle likes then buy enough powder to last the barrels life

many,many years ago when I first started shooting apre64 win m70 in 30-06 I wrote to them and asked if they had any suggestions for target loads. Basically I was told that you did not need the larger bullets to shoot 300mtrs. So I used the sierra 125 spitzer flatbottom bullet. powder charges ranged from 40 grains and not to exceed 43 grains. I loaded aquantity of this ammunition using WWII o6' brass and dupont 4895. As was my usual shooting wasn;t that great I was very suprised that most shots could have been covered by a half dollar. Recoil was pleasentandd shooting ammo does not have to be expensive.125 sierrs spitzers and modest charges of 4895 and WWII era cases.
On targets at two hundred yards I would say that at leoast 90% of those 125 spitzers could be counted on being in the ten ring or at worst the ring outside the ten ring. I've used this load many times to load up abatch of practice ammo and helps refine techniques. You owe it to yourself to try this out.You do not need full bore ammumition to shoot the 300 meter tragets. Try it and you may be pleasntly suprised.Frrank

Also if not useing optics you can try the ladder system. take a target and reverse it so the bull does not face outwards.With a magic marker a straight line from top to bottom.start at the top and draw a straight line from top to bottom. as you start shooting with your lower powered ammo and increase your elevation .When you a are done
you should be able to see the various groupings you shot. Somewhere along that line there should be one or two groups that are tighter than all the rest.Those are the loads that you should be rfining to get better accuracy.
Frank

As far as testing for AR SRs goes- why waste ammo? 24 to 24.5 grains of Varget, RL15, N140, etc and any 75-77 grin BTHP at mag length will clean any target aT ANY LINE.

42 grn of the same for any 155-175 in the 308 M1 or M1A will do the same.

I'm with HPMaster on this. There are standard loads for ARs, Garands, M1As and bolt guns that just plain work for high power competition. The X-ring is about 1 MOA and the ten ring is 2 MOA. Wringing that last tenth of an inch off your group size isn't worth the time and barrel wear. Remember, in most cases an entire team uses the same load. They don't work up individual loads for each shooter.

Good wind doping and position development are worth more effort.

For my bolt gun in .308, 42 grains of 4064 with a 168 grain Match King worked just fine, and 46 grains of Varget with the 155 works in my Palma gun out to 1000 yards. My AR loads are similar to the ones he mentioned.

High Power Master
Long Range High Master

Any feedback on how the load development worked out?

For AR-15 Service Rifle competition at 200 and 300 yards, I use 77 grain Sierra MatchKings (SMK) over 24.0 grains of RL-15, and seat them to the max length that will feed through the magazines. I use 80 grain SMK's over the same 24.0 grains of RL-15 for the 600 yard line, but I seat the bullets .015-.020" off the lands. These cartridges are too long to feed through the mags, but I load them single shot with a sled. 600 yard firing is slow fire prone, so there is plenty of time to single-load bullets. Hope this helps. Regards, Bill Thibeault, NRA High Power Expert "Across the Course."

I am reading, with some difficulty due to the bouncing around nature of the articles; on what Salazar actually shoots in his 30-06's with the 180gr Sierra MK's.

Did anybody get that data?

thanks,

Rich