Bullets.com has the new March 4.5X Service Rifle scope on the market.

Any Idea on the cost? I put toether AR14A4s for clients for under a grand, and with irons they will clean a 600 yard target with any stiff 80 grain load. if the optic costs much more than a grand, I doubt many will find a home. Leupold is also marketing a HP Service rifle Optic through White oak, and it will be a decent optic.

Remember, Service rifle is not sniping, and the rules allow only up to a 4.5X 34 mm obj....

I follow the change quite closely on a dedicated HP forum, High master national level shooters claim a point or two, easeier hold due to one sighting plane, but no panacea for the average Expert or Master.

I have a Leupy FX 4x with M1 knobs and a target dot reticle and even at the reduced 300 yd 600 target, I still do better with irons-I personally think it is related to the now visible heart beat and wobble area whereas in prone sling supported with irons, rarely heart beat is noticed (unless I mislocated my sling on my support arm) and wobble is virtually nonexistent.

The optic rule change is to encourage tacticool type who know they cannot do it with irons to come and try, it won't add 10 or 20 points to a decent shooters scores-the evidence of good shooters experiments I believe are showing that rather decisively.

Service rifle in NRA and CMP competition is no more-the AR does not even have to look anything like an issue rifle-excepting that an A1 or A2 pistol grip MUST be used-how silly if you are allowing anything else, almost.

I have broken out the NM M1 and am planning to campaign with a real wood and steel issue pattern service rifle-in 30/06, now that my shoulder & back surgery recoveries are progressing well and I can actually get back into a slung up position.

Already, in match rifle completion, rarely does an optic sighted rifle win over an iron sighted one-that alone should tell us all something.

quote:

The optic rule change is to encourage tacticool type who know they cannot do it with irons to come and try

No the rule change was due to the fact that lot of the military rifle use in the real world now have optics on them.

PDog,

No. Absolutely not. NRA SR at Perry has dwindled to barely 100 shooters-while CMP SR is filling the ranges.

While I agree that optics are indeed becoming standard on us weapons and even nonstandardized assessories are soup du jour in many units, and escpecially in the MSR owning public, the SR rules change only serves to encourage the millions AR owners to try precision position shooting-they won't, don't and still will not-it is too hard for the average joe to hit a 1 MOA X ring or a 2 MOA 10 ring at 200, 300 and 600 yards.

I tried for years to recruit Soldiers, sailors and Marines at a major Army post to try- if it isn't large targets at close range an rapid fire with lots of movement, they won't try- More than one NCO or PO told me that after watching me put rounds in the standard SR target 10/ X ring at 200m standing at the POW range that it was just too hard to do. Optics from a sling won't make a difference- the basic understanding of how to shoot is missing- hence the large preferably humanoid any hit counts principle follows.

Good news is that Army is devising a new emphasis in rifle marksmanship- focus allegedly will be on basic skills and precision at range.

The NRA/CMP SR rule changes are driven at increasing attendance only, and the hope is optics will bring them in.

In fact, none of the issue optics are very useful as issued- as seem by the choices HP shooters are making in selecting optics.

Probably so far:

1. Leupy VX Hog or VX2 1-4s
2. Nikon 1-4
3. Vortex PST

NF, March etc will exceed the cost of all the rest of the shooting kit, rifle included, by a factor of 2 or 3x.

I think you will find the scopes listed are lacking. Cost?? If you are a serious shooter the cost of a March or NF is a small part of your expenses. It is a one time purchase and not like barrels and ammo and the multitude of other expenses. Bullets.com offers a 20% discount to past or present military and first responders.
I wouldn't take a knife to a gunfight.
This is my opinion.

A top flite NM capable AR SR with all the top name parts ( Krieger, Giesslle) etc will run about a grand.five, maybe a few bucks more if you want a G NM FF pic handguard, so a $2300 optic will buy you how many 10s and Xs?

However, a set of pinned rear sights and about 3500 quality reloads along with good practice will buy you a whole bunch- for the same dollar cost. It still is about the Indian, not so much about the arrow.

Butch, now I agree if you are shooting a T2K or a dedicated palma gun built on a boutique action, but for an AR SR, no.

Look at what sights/optics are used in LR at the nationals and international competitions- Irons win. ( and optics are used only in SF prone, with few exceptions;these will be used across the course).

My experience.

If you are playing the NM game. I can see you complaining about optics.

Really a weighted mouse gun use in shooting NM isn't very practical any ways.

Shooting bull eyes while standing on a wide open range is what it is.

I don't think many people stand around shooting in the open if some else is shooting back.

If you like playing the NM game so be but a lot of people are finding more practical practice a bit more relevant.

I understand what you are trying to say. SR is not my discipline. I don't know if the real reason is to attract more shooter or saying the military offers optics now and that is the reason for the change.
A lot of the good shooters are still thinking that the irons are the best. Time will tell. The Leupold has never tracked properly, the Trijicon and Vortex do not have the necessary features needed in a SR scope. They have not been amenable to the changes as to parallax adj, 1/4" moa clicks, and adjustable objective. I'm pretty sure I understand what makes a great SR rifle shoot.
There will be a learning curve to the scopes. Somebody needs to make a great set of mounts for them. You will find people that complain that at longer range standing the sight picture is moving. I think some will start leading their aiming point and shoot it like a shotgun. They will need to learn that movements happen with irons but not as evident. They will have to have a scope that tracks perfectly everytime for several years.
Have a wonderful day.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
If you are playing the NM game. I can see you complaining about optics.

Really a weighted mouse gun use in shooting NM isn't very practical any ways.

Shooting bull eyes while standing on a wide open range is what it is.

I don't think many people stand around shooting in the open if some else is shooting back.

If you like playing the NM game so be but a lot of people are finding more practical practice a bit more relevant.

PD Shooter, the military has gone to optics on their M16s. They are already set to shoot optics. You might get up to date on the subject of optics on the service rifles on the NM website and forums.
I didn't realize that the guys got shot at during the SR matches.
You need to understand that I have a very nice SR rifle, but I do not shoot SR. I'm just discussing what the SR shooters are doing at the present and it is open for discussion.
You might follow this: http://www.usrifleteams.com/fo....php?showtopic=30264
Or this: http://www.usrifleteams.com/fo....php?showtopic=31391
Remember, it means nothing to me as I shoot short range BR. I just think it is interesting.

quote:

PD Shooter, the military has gone to optics on their M16s. They are already set to shoot optics. You might get up to date on the subject of optics on the service rifles on the NM

Exactly that's why I don't understand HP objections.

Gaining a X or a point or two on the top end can be the different between winning or losing.

Okay, you guys are right. The US Army and Marine corps mount optics on issue carbines and rifles. M68 CCOs ( 3 MOA reddot sights and ACOGs, 4x ballistic M855 reticle, both have no effective solution for repeatable sight changes-the average 80 grain bullet needs 16-18 MOA of elev to reach 600 from 200).

Now, a tactial scope like the NF, March, Leupys etc are being used in HP competition, I doubt you'll find the AMU pr the USMC Rifle teams mounting ACOGs.....

What's the point?

BTW, My screen name means High Power master(NRA classification) so I have a bit of exp with the subject, and yes, I toted M16A1s, A2s, M4s and A$s during my 24 years of Infantry and Cbt Eng service. What HP does not equate very much to what a combat infantryman does, but the real skills obtained on the KD range at round targets makes a difference when having to make a hit under any conditions.

Some one once said- you can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight.

Plus, the thought behind SR shooting has been for nearly 100 years that a the rifle MUST be an "as issued designed gun", with mods adopted b the US military for NM types allowed. Now, the optics are not the issue for me, it is much more the platform allowance-as long is it is a M16 derivative it flies. Yeah, a bit of xenophobia on my part.

Finally, optics will not result in 500s (CMP) or 800s(NRA) anyway- we already do those on occasion ( the greats anyway) with poor old irons....

Certainly have no argument with you as I said I'm a bystander. I believe the AMU will be shooting NF scopes this year in SR. I make not a penny on this and will not make a cent. Shiraz Balolia who owns Grizzly and bullets.com is an old time friend. He is one of the top FClass shooters in the USA. We have helped each other out with different shooting things over the years. When the Texas guys said scopes were legal now for SR I put them together with Shiraz and that is how it happened with March scopes.
I'm working on an iron sighted Rolling Block now. I will build the sight bases this weekend. The Vaver sights allow me to screw different size apertures in both the front and back sights. About the only way that I might shoot over 50yds with iron sights. I have 5 or 6 mod37 Remington rimfires with iron sights, but can't hit the side of a barn. I just acquired a very very nice 1922M2 and I haven't shot it as I don't feel I can see well enough to hit anything.
What I'm saying is about what I know is happening, but don't know where it will lead.
I hope you have a wonderfgul weekend.

quote:

it

Same to you....

I struggle with irons vison wise now that I am well over 50 and struggle with sitting and standing and prone in a sling due to battle damage and arthritis.

This has been a very informative discussion. Thanks to all parties...

These days about all I shoot are live targets at unmarked yardages.


Rich