My Dad was a tool & die maker and I guess I inherited some of his tinker thinking. I'm getting a 416 Rigby and wanted to come up with a light bullet for deer, varmint, and target. I know of the cast bullet route but was wondering if shaving some of the base of the 300 X is possible to get a light 250 gr performance bullet. Would there be enough base to keep everything together while in flight? Would there be enough to seat it properly in a Rigby case? Just one of those hmmm moments.

Don't know if my logic is correct but cutting down the weight of a 300 to a 250 or 225 would still be a heavy grain bullet when compared to a 30 cal. for deer, elk, or moose. With the Barnes, it seems there would still be enough length, especially since many say the Barnes is too long. I'm not sure of the internal design of the Barnes TSX or X to know if it's possible to remove weight from the base without impacting the structural design. Seems that a 225 or 250 could be a mild(er) recoil when shot at 2800 fps. I imagine with the case capacity, the light bullets could approach the 3000fps rate. Thought it would make the 416 Rigby an extremely versatile round used for flat shooting of pronghorn to elephant...

There are some pre-cut petals in those X-bullets. You wouldn't want to cut so far forward that the unfired bullet fell into 4 pieces or centrifugal force tore it apart when you shot it.

Outside of that, and having enough bearing surface and a cannelure in the right place and deburring your hacksaw marks off the base of the bullet, it sounds acceptable.

Someone in Cast Bullets or Bullet Making suggested paper patching jacketed bullets a while back. I wonder if you'd have much luck paper patching 0.410" diameter 41 Magnum handgun type bullets. They'd be right around bore diameter, I guess, and the paper could fill the grooves for you. The copper jacket would keep the barrel from leading up if your velocities were a little bit too much for the patch.

H. C.

Never trim the base of any jacketed bullet theres a good chance you will blow the core out .

and leave the jacket stuck in the barrel

[Barnes X has no jacket.]
So, I don't have a 416. It surprises me there's no lighter weight bullets. Do you have some way of cutting them straight and consistent one to the next? Otherwise you won't have a very accurate bullet regardless of how well you dress them. Unless you just like the X bullet, I'd suggest trying to swage a .411" bullet of appropriate size. That's a pretty small bump; should be ab;e to pull it off well.
Problem is, those .411's aren't much made for 3kfps that the Rigby is capable of, so you'd have to load it accordingly.
Besides, who says a 300g isn't a dandy of a varmint bullet? 300g Swift Scirroco @2900.... :P

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
[Barnes X has no jacket.]
So, I don't have a 416. It surprises me there's no lighter weight bullets. Do you have some way of cutting them straight and consistent one to the next? Otherwise you won't have a very accurate bullet regardless of how well you dress them. Unless you just like the X bullet, I'd suggest trying to swage a .411" bullet of appropriate size. That's a pretty small bump; should be ab;e to pull it off well.
Problem is, those .411's aren't much made for 3kfps that the Rigby is capable of, so you'd have to load it accordingly.
Besides, who says a 300g isn't a dandy of a varmint bullet? 300g Swift Scirroco @2900.... :P

so the barn's X is a turned based bullet then ..With no lead core inside?

Pure copper, stem to stern, IIRC. I don't know whether they cut them or swage them or squish-weld the copper powder grains together in a squishing die.

H. C.

quote:

Originally posted by HenryC470:
Pure copper, stem to stern, IIRC. I don't know whether they cut them or swage them or squish-weld the copper powder grains together in a squishing die.

H. C.

Copper Powder or tungstong powder would fall apart on impact .

Becarefull how much you remove you start messing the the baring surfice and the bullet become's impalanced. and will tumble....Key hole

Now, I think it was Richard Corbin that told me that a certain type of armor piercing bullets are made by pressing tungsten powder containing microcrystalline wax. Something like 0.3% or 1% or 3%, I forget the exact amount. I also forget whether the tungsten powder is just pressed together in a die or into a bullet jacket. Sounds frangible as heck to me. I figure the bullet's mode of fragmentation might have something to do with why it penetrates armor. DU works that way. The uranium metal fragments in a way that it always stays pointy at the tip. (Something about adiabatic shear bands). I know if you stand on sand and let waves wash over your feet, the sand washes away except in the middle of where you're standing on it. Maybe tungsten powder bullets press that little pile of tungsten very tightly on impact, and the pile of tungsten sloughs off at the edges of the front of the bullet, but not in the middle, so it is like a pointy little pile of powdered metal.

That's just a rationalization and embellishment of an imperfect recollection. Maybe Richard Corbin told me wrong. Maybe he told me something totally correct, and I'm remembering it wrong. A good trial lawyer could have me for lunch over this.

"You don't really remember anything, now do you Mr. Cabot? Hmmmmm?"

"Your Honor, can I go to the bathroom?"

H. C.

quote:

Now, I think it was Richard Corbin that told me that a certain type of armor piercing bullets are made by pressing tungsten powder containing microcrystalline wax. Something like 0.3% or 1% or 3%, I forget the exact amount. I also forget whether the tungsten powder is just pressed together in a die or into a bullet jacket

It was Darth Dave that told you that...

I talked to Richy today and in fact we did talk about Darth Dave's tooling...-->Evil Dave

Dave Has One eye ... oK ok thats not true but spread the romer anyway

Dave Corbin Sell's Powder's... Copper- Tungstong Etc ..
And yes these magic powder's do have wax as a binder .It help's hold the powder together when swaged---> Dave's Evil... ..

I meet Dave Before he fell to the dark side
in 1974. Before he became Darth Dave.
....

The Barnes bullets are swaged.

If so then there one or the other
drilled tipped then swaged ( soild rod stock)
Or Lead filled core's outside jacketed .

Why not end the speculation and conjecture by asking them directly?

1-800-574-9200
email@barnesbullets.com

"forward extrusion". there swaging a hole in the tip then forcing it closed via swaging.

You would have to cut it perfectly otherwise it would exit the barrel less than perfect much like a barrel with a poorly cut crown

IIRC Ken Waters used a 250 grain roundnose soft (by Colorado Custom Bullets maybe?) when developing his 416 Express on the 350 Rem Mag case. It didn't look a lot longer than it was wide but I imagine such a bullet would turn deer into venison right quick. Playing at shortening the 300 grain X-bullet sounds like an interesting challenge but it might be easier to put a 50 grain hollowpoint in a 300 grain cup and core softnose. Good hunting!

Cutting the base from about any bullet...
---= unbalanced = imbalanced Bullet

Found the Waters article I mentioned earlier. It was in Handloader #167 Jan-Feb 1994. The .416 250 grain roundnose was by Northern Precision. He used two semispitzer 300s in his test, one by Colorado, the other by Hawk. Still, if ever there was a bullet a fella might be able to chuck in a lathe and shorten successfully (accurately) from the tail end it's probably the X-bullet... Good hunting!

Paper patching of a .41 handgun bullet looks like it might be something to explore...

Anything under 300 is going to be so short you're gonna have a lot of jump to the rifiling.

Also, really sorry BC and SD. Those only matter some of the time, though.

Do you want the light bullet to jack up speed, reduce recoil or only just to tinker?

There are lots better ways to do the first two but if its the last one, go for it. The posters are right though, if you don't cut perfectly square bases you'll shoot all over the paper.

It's actually all three. I would like to tweak my 416 Rigby into an all around rifle. I'd like to get more speed but not go overboard on the recoil by cranking up the 300 grainers. I would like to get a flat shooting round for taking deer and pronghorn but don't need the heavy bullets. I do want to tinker to see if I could come up with a solution that would be fun to develop. In practicality I could bring out a 30-06 but it's the fun and challenge of discovery that makes me obsessed with this thought....

I have cut .411 300 grainers down to 240 grain. They shoot fine out of my pistol. Must be at least ten years ago or so that I started doing this. I tested them in water off the roof, and got a really nice expansion. A perfect X. I will look for the bullet and get pictures. [?] If I can find it. I made up a clamping [holding] jig, and can do 5 at a time. [cutting off the bases]

When shortening X-Bullets do you true the noses first, before upending the slugs in the jig to shorten them?

And please tell us more about the 41x240 Wby.

quote:

Originally posted by mb:
When shortening X-Bullets do you true the noses first, before upending the slugs in the jig to shorten them?

And please tell us more about the 41x240 Wby.

No, I have never trued the noses, didn't know of any problem with them!

The case is a blown out 240, shortened to 2.170. It will shoot a 300 grainer 2200 fps out of a 15" barrel. Sako bolt action pistol, pictures at:
Bruce's Hunting Page

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mb:
When shortening X-Bullets do you true the noses first, before upending the slugs in the jig to shorten them?QUOTE]

I just checked six 300 grainers and they only have .0015 TIR. Was ther a problem with quality on some? Mine seem to be fine. This box has the gold label, I have some with a yellow label on the box that are unopened.

quote:

I just checked six 300 grainers and they only have .0015 TIR. Was ther a problem with quality on some?

I recall a box of .308 180 gr XBTs I played with a decade or so ago had noses that were visibly, if only ever so slightly, uneven. I didn't measure the variation as it did not matter for my purposes but it seems to me such differences would be magnified when using a jig to shorten the bullets at the base. Glad QC is not an issue.


The 41x240 seems to offer 405 Winchester ballistics from a 308 length case, with no headspace issues, in a bolt action handgun. Do you know anyone who has tried it in a rifle? Has anyone done any pressure data? Good hunting!

mb,
I have only read 'reference' to the 41x240 used in rifles. [full lenght] I have never seen any published loading data.

I can duplicate 358 win loads out of the Barnes manual, with a 15" barrel, compared to the 26" on the 358.

The 240 was shot into water at 2320fps.

2.5" group at 150 yds. out of my 'handgun'

My best 3 shot groups at 100 are 1 1/4".

You and your danged pictures!! Your idea already made sense to my febrile brain, and the pics shoved me over the edge. Maybe I can devise a bullet stop in a rubber-flex collet and lathe turn the bases off. By setting a "stop" on one of the lathe ways, it should be dead simple to repeat lengths exactly from bullet-to-bullet, without even standing there reading a DRO on each one? I hope...maybe...?

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
You and your danged pictures!! Your idea already made sense to my febrile brain, and the pics shoved me over the edge. Maybe I can devise a bullet stop in a rubber-flex collet and lathe turn the bases off. By setting a "stop" on one of the lathe ways, it should be dead simple to repeat lengths exactly from bullet-to-bullet, without even standing there reading a DRO on each one? I hope...maybe...?

Keep me [us] posted with your results!

The 300 gr 416 bullet already is a "light/hi performance bullet". It is pretty flat shooting with noticeably lighter recoil. If you simply load the 300 gr bullet at starting loads it will be fine on thin skin critters and comfortable to shoot without having to alter the bullets. Good shoot'n

I'm all for making big bores more versatile by loading them with lighter bullets, and at less than full throttle velocity. That said, I really don't see the benefit of going lighter than 300 gr in a 40 caliber. The bullet will shed velocity quickly, and give up it's ability to penetrate. IMHO when using a 416 for smaller game, you have to either give up range or deal with full patch recoil, and I'd opt for a 325 gr @ 2500 as a good compromise of shootability and useful range.

There certainly is a time and place for small and medium bores, and me thinks this is one of them.

quote:

That said, I really don't see the benefit of going lighter than 300 gr in a 40 caliber

Yea, but it is fun to try new things!

A little more velosity and a little less arck, is a good thing for smaller thin skinned critters!