Thanks again Bernie,

these will be rifle bullets... jumping through all the legal hoops to own a pistol in Australia is just way too much effort...

Here is my latest .308 bullet designs.


145gr (L) and 138gr right


.300 Wby Mag and .308 Win



The 145gr version is generally unsuitable for the .308 due to the ogive shape (results in short OAL). It works much better in the Weatherby due to the freebore.

The bullets are designed very specifically for deer sized game at short to intermideate ranges. The light weight and large hollowpoint cavity should produce good results on thin skinned game up to 200lbs.

Range test and on game performance tests to follow.

Nice Work!!

You should try some very streamlined 300 grain .308 bullets. If they shot, and their BC was out of this world, you could make a killing on them with the "tacticool" shooters.

That would be one looong bullet. Well over 2 inches. You would need a super fast twist barrel (probably 1/7 or more) to stabilize something like that. Not to mention the ammount of space it would eat up in your case even with a .30-378 or .300 RUM.

By the way I range tested the bullets on Sunday and got some very good results. 3/4" groups in the Weatherby (Vanguard) and 1-1/4" in the Savage 10 (mostly my fault). In any case I will hopefully be able to report on terminal performance on game next month after my trip to Utah.

Those tacticool folks would love to ream their throats out to save case capacity. You could have much the same niche market as Wildcat bullets.

I was unable to test these on game as no opportunity presented itself to do so during my hunt in Utah. Water testing is planned for April when I have access to a private range. Other bullet designs for .44 and .357 mag will also be tested.

Here are sectioned views of the above bullets.

Why would one need an FFL to distribute machined pieces of copper? They are not cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeMichalski:
Why would one need an FFL to distribute machined pieces of copper? They are not cartridges.

To distribute (sell) ammunition or components of ammunition you wouldn't need an FFL. If you manufacture ammunition or it's components including primers, cartridge cases, projectiles, etc. - you'll need and FFL-6.

I was going to say myself, it is a ammo component for a rifle. You would have to have more then a tax ID for that. Hell you need to have your FFL to sell silencers for paintball guns. Because apparently you can use them as effectively as on paintball guns.......
Think of it this way. Just another way to tap the change out of our piggy banks!

I was looking at the C&R licence and saw this, may be of intrest to you if you want to make and sell.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ff...ffl_types.htm#type06

Copy and pasted as fallows;

Type 06 -


MANUFACTURER OF AMMUNITION FOR FIREARMS
other than ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition.

18 U.S.C 923(a)(1)(C)

Fee:
$ 30.00 for three (3) years.

Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

The link should take you to the site so you can down load the forms you need.

GOOD LUCK
James
PS I'll take some 6.5mm(.264) or .308cal bullets to try out on some good Maine Wild Game!
....and paper/steel targets

quote:

Originally posted by bernieb90:
I was unable to test these on game as no opportunity presented itself to do so during my hunt in Utah. Water testing is planned for April when I have access to a private range. Other bullet designs for .44 and .357 mag will also be tested.

Here are sectioned views of the above bullets.

Bernie, what's the diameter of your hollow point on the MZ??

Have you tried any from brass yet?

It is .201 (#7) drill bit. I use a split point 135 degree cobalt bit to get a sligtly flatter angle on the bottom.

Bernie,

Please check your PM's.

Thanks.

amazing how they expand with those light score lines.

Do you broach them in on the machine or by hand afterwards?

Since I only made a small quantity I did it by "hand". I put the bullets in a manual lathe with a collet and drove the punch in using the tailstock that way I could get a very consistant depth to the cuts.

Expansion should occur with or without the cuts for the most part, but the cuts ensure the expansion is symetrical thus keeping the bullet on track, and making penetration, and expansion predictable. The cuts do reduce the ammount of energy needed to tear the wall of the cavity by creating a significant stress concentration. This is a somilar concept to creasing a piece of paper and tearing along the crease.

I will try firing one without the cuts into water to see what that looks like. It should still expand, but the expansion will be based on random failure locations around the cavity.

Bernie, think brass would react the same way? or be too hard?

Al,
Brass it generally too brittle to be used in expanding bullet construction. The only application of brass I have seen with expanding bullets is in Remington's Golden Saber. However the brass is a very thin, and is optimized for ductility.

Typically non-expanding solids that are to be used for dangerous game are made from brass or bronze.

I was just curious, I seen this site afterwards and they use brass, but they are a different design and use a full hex.

http://www.lehighbullets.com/index.html

Here is my latest bullet design. Again it is a lightweight .308 130gr. The predicted BC is .400 so it should fly pretty well. Muzzle velocity in a .308 Win should be about 3000 fps with proper powder selection.

Nice work, Steve! I hadn't read this thread as it was titled for MZ but I see it entails more.

Keep up the good work and good luck!

get a chance to shoot them yet?

These are getting much better!

Great job, I v been keeping a eye on the thread sense it started. I like what I see, I also would be inline to buy bullets, .308 and .264 calibers.
I wish I lived closer so I could swing by and pick at your head and maybe exchange ideas.

Starting Precision Machining in the fall.
http://www.kvcc.me.edu/pmt/
Cant wait to try my hand a such projects! But first a good education inline.

I finally got to shoot these bullets this past weekend.

Test media: Water (in 2.5, and 1 gal jugs)
Test firearm: Savage 10 .308 Win.



Unfired, 2945 fps, 2190 fps

Bullet was sprayed with HBN (Hexaxonal Boron Nitride in order to deduce pressure, and reduce copper fouling. Fouling appeared to be minimal.

I also tested the older hollowpoint design as well.


MV 2832 fps

Overall I would say it went well. I had some accuracy issues, but I may have some damage on the crown of the gun, and I still need to do a but of dialing in as far as the bullet jump goes (right now it is too much).

Future projects may include, 7mm Rem Mag, 30-30 and .44 mag.

Two alloys of copper were listed as being used for this application. Are there others that are "soft and squishy" (relatively speaking)?

Has anyone tried common pistol calibers in copper? In this application extreme accuracy is not an issue as it would be for close range shooting.

For whatever reason has anyone considered drilling a hole through the base to insert a weight-adding lead core? I'm guessing some mad reloader is sweating out copper bullet ballistics based on aerodynamics & weight.

Pure copper tends to be more ductile than copper alloys. Water is a very harsh media to fire bullets into especially at high velocity. Actual performance will probably somewhere in between the two samples especially when shots are taken from 100-300yds.

Pistol bullets will behave similar to the muzzleloader bullet. Copper bullets are capable of excelent accuracy when you find the right load. The 145gr bullet shown on the other page will group into 3/4" consistantly from my friends .300 Wby Mag.

We tried making small caliber bullets on our CNC lathe - 22 and 24 caliber.

It is quite a job, and we had to give up after a while.

Making larger caliber bulets, on the other hand, like 375 and over, seems to be much easier for us.

Accuracy wise, our lathe turned bullets have better accuracy than nay of the punched bullets we can but for the larger calibers.

The accuracy of modern high speed turning machine tools should produce bullets far more precise than anything thing bench rest shooters are currently using.
What I seem to be hearing is the bench rest shooters want the manufacturers to prove the bullets work. My view, knowing the precision of the bullets, is they will work but they will require development by the bench resters themselves. Benchresters are so conservative and stuck in a rut that they expect someone else to do their development for them before they will change.
Once they figure out they can shoot better with machined bullets they will need to find a way to use a fully machined case and get rid of that variable too.

Look
My home made bullet

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
FFL - 6 License to manufacture Ammunition of the non-military type.

Loaded ammunition yes but just bullets I don't believe you need any license to manufacture/sell or we wouldn't HAVE any bullets because of the cost.

quote:

Originally posted by Tazman1602:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
FFL - 6 License to manufacture Ammunition of the non-military type.

Loaded ammunition yes but just bullets I don't believe you need any license to manufacture/sell or we wouldn't HAVE any bullets because of the cost.

Belief is useful in Church - the BATFE requires a license to manufacture and sell BULLETS.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

FFL - 6 License to manufacture Ammunition of the non-military type.

Belief is useful in Church - the BATFE requires a license to manufacture and sell BULLETS.

I absolutely stand corrected in my statement. I still can't believe it, that you have to comply with BATF and ITAR regs and all the taxes involved to sell cast bullets but it is true. Should have put my brain in gear before I opened my mouth. I still can't believe it but have confirmed it's the truth....

Strange but true. Refer to GCA 1968 for specific language.

sr4759,
I'm amazed at what comes out of your mouth sometimes.
Butch