Hey guys,

If one was to make a tungsten core projectile along the lines of the discontinued Speer AGS solid, would you use a pure tungsten or a tungsten alloy.

From what I understand, pure tungsten (which I can get in an 8mm dia x 100mm long rod for a reasonably cheap price) is brittle, where tungsten carbide is much stronger. For the core of a bullet would a pure tungsten be a disadvantage if the projectile bent while passing through an animal (due to its brittleness), where a tungsten carbide might prevent this due to being stronger?

It's an idea I've got in my head at the moment, so bear with me on this.

How are you going to me the bullets with the core centered?

At least here in the US, you would have issues with the various laws regarding AP bullets if you are trying to sell them.

As I see it, the whole point of the use would be to make the bullet smaller/shorter.

The current “low density” copper based monometal flat meplat solids penetrate well enough in traditional dangerous game calibers to make trying to shorten the bullet (to improve stability, or increase velocity are the only real reasons I can think of) that I don’t really see the necessity.

As Saeed points out, getting it centered so it flies straight will be an issue- overcomeable, but undoubtedly leading to more expense. That’s my understanding as to why the AGS’s went away- too expensive and not offering substantial improvement over other designs.

Another point that I heard of re AGS’s was that the tungsten core separated and did not necessarily track in a straight line after impact.

If I wanted an AP projectile, the tungsten core idea is a good one, if expensive. I’m just not sure it’s advantages for hunting.

I don't know the answer to your question.

Maybe you can ask Speer?

The Speer tungsten solids were great bullets, great penetrators, but too complicated and expensive to make by half.

Monolithic solids equaled them in effectiveness, and were far less expensive to make and therefore buy.

That's why the Speers bit the dust.

How are you going to cut tungsten carbide? I see no advantage to just using a solid brass bullet, or even a steel core.
I would use DU; Depleted Uranium cores. That is what our tank SABOT rounds are made from. They will penetrate tank hulls and turrets. I can't tell you how much; although I know.

quote:

At least here in the US, you would have issues with the various laws regarding AP bullets if you are trying to sell them

Only handgun bullets.

Might reach out to Dave Corbin of swaging fame. Seems to me he and I chatted a bit about tungsten cores years ago in his office in White City, Oregon.

Didn’t Speer make some tungsten core bullets at one time or another?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
How are you going to me the bullets with the core centered?

So, how are you going to form and dimension the cores? tungsten carbide is up near diamond when it comes to hardness.

Grizz

Seems to me that one route is to fill your jacket to optimum level with tungsten dust, then compress heavily and form the jacket point.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

At least here in the US, you would have issues with the various laws regarding AP bullets if you are trying to sell them

Only handgun bullets.

Until ATF uses the presence of hand cannon pistols to ban them (again)…

If we know why you want a Tungsten core for, we might be able to help.

With modern copper and brass bullets, one can get all the penetration desired for hunting.

I think some FN armor piercing bullets use a steel core inside a lead and copper jacket.

It seems like I've seen tungsten shotgun ammo on the shelf at the LGS. It would work well as a bullet material just because of its density. I think the main drawback is the cost (more expensive than lead). I wonder what DU goes for these days. It seems like gold would work pretty good for bullets too.

I believe that the most important reason for replacing tungsten with DU in tank ammo (and other ammo too) was availability of cheap DU. DU was also used for balancing planes (Boeing 747 for example). But DU, what I know a very little, has some advantages over tungsten/tungsten carbide: It is pyrophoric, so it started to burn on impact spontaneously and DU core or sabot flechette can be made to be self sharpening on impact.

Jiri

The Speer AGS 500 gr.was probably tailor made for the 458 Win Mag.
Very easy to load that bullet to it desired velocity with the short projectile. 2200 FPS is easy with no powder compression at suggested AOL.
I have about 75 of those in my stash.
The bullet is just a hair longer than a 450 gr. Swift.
500 AGS tungsten core 1.320"
450 A Frame Swift 1.310"

EZ

Not that it will or should ever happen, but I wonder if a depleted uranium core solid bullet could be made and at what cost?

Whether ammunition loaded with such bullets would make it through airport security is another question entirely.

Well, I guarantee that I wouldn’t eat anything shot with one, and I’d be hunting in full MOPP gear if I was shooting it!

Shooting DU ammo does not require any special precautions; we are not exposed to any radiation from the DU projectile. At the target, that is another story, but that is from hitting steel; not meat. It would just punch a little hole in meat.
Now, when you machine DU, you have to take precautions not to breath the dust, and wear film badges.

The only time I have seen an advantage to tungsten core was shooting a steel plate.

1 inch thick.

Shot it with many different bullets in many different calibers.

Not a single one went through.

Except the Speer Tungsten Core 375 caliber.

The Tungsten core went through, not the whole bullet.

For hunting, copper and brass do well enough.

I shot an elephant in the head with a Barnes Super Solid brass bullet, 400 grains 416 caliber in a 416 Rigby Improved my friend Dwight Scott built for me.

I recovered that bullet, intact.

Just for fun, I turned that same bullet down to 375 caliber, and used it the following year to shoot another elephant in my 375/404.

Again, brained, but sadly the bullet went completely through.

One bullet.

Two calibers.

Two elephants.

If I had recovered it I would have used it again!

For density tungsten is a lot denser than tungsten carbide.
But carbide is easier to find.
Where I used to work (made ejection seats, small solid rocket motors and pyros for military) we were talking bullets with a guy from an Army lab. They were trying to make improved 30 caliber AP bullets for sniper anti material use. Said they machined a blank to make the bullet from twice as long as finished bullet. Hole for the tungsten penetrator was cut with a reamer matching the insert shape with just a couple thousandths press.
Back into lathe to machine outside, extra length gives something to hang on to with lathe.
He said it works but takes forever