A Cautionary Tale -

Be careful leaving outgoing checks in your mailbox. Doesn't matter how big. A band of thieves swept through our neighborhood and one to the northwest of us, and stole mail from mailboxes. By the time it became apparent that checks hadn't arrived at their intended destination, the thieves had duplicated some checks, written them to themselves and cashed them. The first you'll become aware of the stolen identity is either a forged check appearing in your bank account or a detective from some police department calling you to tell you that you've been tagged.

At least one of the thieves was caught with stolen checks in his possession. That doesn't help you. You have to close your bank account, apply for refund of the forged check amounts, cancel any credit cards compromised, and re-establish all payment links to your new bank account.

You are stuck with about five days when you don't have access to cash.

At least three police jurisdictions were affected in our case.

In addition to creating "new" checks they can also "wash" your checks to convert them to their checks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check_washing Start at about the 2:20 mark in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gN8MHDWTB4

Take checks to a locked mail facility or to the Post Office, don't leave them in your mailbox if at all possible. Pay as much as possible online or through direct payment links. (This has been a Public Service Announcement. No charge.)

Some years ago, I took bills to a post office and used the drive-up box outside. I did notice something sticky as I put them in, but didn't make the connection. Someone was pouring sticky stuff inside, then coming back later to harvest envelopes from the inside slope. From inside the building it's hard to see whether a driver is putting stuff in or taking it out. I didn't lose much, but do not use outside boxes any longer for outgoing anything. As you note, I found out when a credit card bank called up to inquire about a washed check. If they hadn't tried to change the amount they would probably not have been caught at that point (maybe later?). The post office would not tell us who did the deed.

Our neighborhood has a box that was broken into multiple times, we got together and bought a better one that was harder to get into. Since then we've been left alone. Still I don't put outgoing mail in that box...

We always take our checks containing envelopes to the inside post office drop box.

"You have to close your bank account, apply for refund of the forged check amounts, cancel any credit cards compromised, and re-establish all payment links to your new bank account."

Been there, done that. Years ago, we had someone at WalMart take our check for payment and later use parts of it for forging checks. They had portions of about 5 different people's checks combined in their forged bad checks. We never mail anything from the house. It's taken to work to go out with the work mail or taken directly to the post office.

Another reason why I keep a P.O. Box. "They" can still get to you but it's much harder.

The ingenuity of crooks is always amazing. They are obviously smart and could make so much more money if they would apply themselves to something else. With no risk of prison time.

A lot of them don't even get prison time. They had a girl working at the local P.O. a few years ago that was filching credit card apps from folks mail + filling them out. She got fired but never prosecuted because her daddy had some clout.

Much easier to just pay bills at the bank.

Grizz

That wouldn't be easier for me. All my company checks are business-related + there are too many. I do use personal checks at the grocery store only, + not a credit card as I hate to buy something that will already be gone when I get the bill.

I haven’t used checks for years. (Business I understand) Haven’t been to a bank in years.
Debit cards are much easier. Everyone here must have an internet connection. I do all financial transactions online. Takes minutes. I don’t get wasting your time with checks and banks. And the mail, haven’t used that in a long time nor have I bought stamps.
You guys seem to be living in the past century. Technology is here, use it!

It is amazing you actually still have checks in the US. I had never even seen one before my first visit to the US in 1997 - in Germany they had already become extremely uncommon by that time.

A few years ago a customer sent a check to the business where I worked at that time. Several people from customer service and accounting stood in the hall, passing the check around and discussing what to do with it. They ended up calling the bank and asking how to cash it.

Michael, I freely admit to being a dinosaur. I was drug kicking + screaming into the 20th-century technology + here we are in the 21st. When I moved to this little rural community in 1970 we still had crank telephones + a diner in town with a jukebox that hadn't been changed since 1952. All my tooling in my metal shop (sans electric) is between 75 to 175 years old + works as well as the day it was made. It's a dying trade with modern mechanization however I can still build by hand what the computer driven machines cannot.

OK NC, You get a pass!

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
That wouldn't be easier for me. All my company checks are business-related + there are too many. I do use personal checks at the grocery store only, + not a credit card as I hate to buy something that will already be gone when I get the bill.

HUH???

You can pay at the grocery store with you checking account debit card. There is no bill. It's just like writing a check except --- no check. Your checking account is debited in the same manner as it would be if using a check.

No bill comes later.

You should not be using your debit card for anything except ATM withdrawls.
The rules and protections around debit card transactions are lest stringent and more complex than those around a credit card.
If someone makes a 1 million dollar transaction on you VISA card and you dispute it or identify it as fraud, your liability is Zero.
You might get by with that on your debit card but not after many months and a whole lot of grief, frozen accouts, etc.

If you care to look it up, Credit cards are governed largly by Reg Z while Debit cards are governed by Reg E. Very different. You are much better protected with a credit card.
I personally pay ALL my bills with my credit card (1.5% cash back) and pay only one bill brom my checking account monthly.
Saves a lot of grief, plus most Visa cards offer you a year end recap soo you can see where all your money went..

quote:

Originally posted by Pa.Frank:
You should not be using your debit card for anything except ATM withdrawls.

I'd have to strongly disagree with that.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Pa.Frank:
You should not be using your debit card for anything except ATM withdrawls.

I'd have to strongly disagree with that.

X2

I do have a 'restricted' and monitored credit cards for my employees. However, I still hate the fact that we are using them. However, due to the security of them, I do use them for business.

For personal use, I am fine 'risking' a debit card, or cash.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Pa.Frank:
You should not be using your debit card for anything except ATM withdrawls.

I'd have to strongly disagree with that.

Credit card banks typically charge around three percent for a transaction, debit cards are a half-percent. If it weren't for bad checks, they would be preferred.

I had an interesting experience yesterday.

I rewrote a property tax check (because the initial check was blocked when I closed my account) and hand-carried the new check to the post office.

I drove through the drop-box line. There were three big blue boxes, each with a slot staring at me. I pulled up to the farthest box and saw envelopes in the slot, staring back at me. I could have easily grabbed a handful.

I backed up to the middle box and saw nothing staring at me from the slot. So I dropped my tax envelope in. It didn't fall to the bottom. The corner of the envelope stared back at me from the slot.

Why doesn't the Post Office remove mail from those boxes three times a day instead of two during the holiday season? Instead they let mail fill the box and hang out the slot. Thanks for nothing!

Since cars were behind me, I drove around in a loop and got back in line. When I got back to the box, I reached in to retrieve my envelope, and instead pulled out someone else's utility bill.....no doubt with their check payment inside.

I then drove on to another city and walked into their tax office, and while standing in front of a nice lady, re-wrote two additional property tax checks. (Each one, like the other, with an additional $30 Returned Check Charge.) I don't know that lady, and have no idea whether she will handle the check properly, or use my banking information to steal my identity...again.

My belief is that it is virtually impossible to protect your financial information these days. A lot of it just depends on how lucky you are.

I hope you are lucky this holiday season.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:

A lot of them don't even get prison time. They had a girl working at the local P.O. a few years ago that was filching credit card apps from folks mail + filling them out. She got fired but never prosecuted because her daddy had some clout.

Only a few ever get caught and even fewer are ever charged with a crime. This largely because the banks seldom become involved in filing charges. Criminals know that the banks cover the losses and move on. It costs the bank more to prosecute than to write off the bad debt. The banks simply raise everyone's transaction fees to cover the losses. So at the end of the day, no one is prosecuted, the losses are covered, and all of us who use banks get to pay for the entire exercise. The criminals win...

I use PayPal for on-line purchases as you can control the balance. If it is hacked you can't lose but so much. The trick is keeping the balance low and adding when you intend to make a purchase. Option two is to take out a low balance credit card. All are protected. I still write checks for certain items, don't ask me why. Maybe holding on to a last vestige of the past.

Well, I'll still go with the vestiges of the past. When I started writing checks mucho years ago the bank folks couldn't comprehend that up to that point I just dealt in cash. Oh + FWIW, I used to wind my watch as well.

Paypal is a data security company, its 'bank-like' functions are sizzle on the steak.
I'm not aware that it's ever been hacked; no one gets credit card numbers.

I don't use Pay Pal due to the rumors that I have read that they are an anti-gun company + those I do not support. Do you have any information about the truth of that statement. I would hate to boycott a company that was inocent of that policy.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Pa.Frank:
You should not be using your debit card for anything except ATM withdrawls.

I'd have to strongly disagree with that.

You never explained WHY.

Here is the applicable verbiage from Reg Z (credit card) followed by the applicable verbiage for Reg E (debit cards). read em for yourself and decide which protects you more.

Reg Z:
(b) Liability of cardholder for unauthorized use. (1)(i) Definition of unauthorized use. For purposes of this section, the term “unauthorized use” means the use of a credit card by a person, other than the cardholder, who does not have actual, implied, or apparent authority for such use, and from which the cardholder receives no benefit.

(ii) Limitation on amount. The liability of a cardholder for unauthorized use of a credit card shall not exceed the lesser of $50 or the amount of money, property, labor, or services obtained by the unauthorized use before notification to the card issuer under paragraph (b)(3) of this section.

(2) Conditions of liability. A cardholder shall be liable for unauthorized use of a credit card only if:

(i) The credit card is an accepted credit card;

(ii) The card issuer has provided adequate notice of the cardholder's maximum potential liability and of means by which the card issuer may be notified of loss or theft of the card. The notice shall state that the cardholder's liability shall not exceed $50 (or any lesser amount) and that the cardholder may give oral or written notification, and shall describe a means of notification (for example, a telephone number, an address, or both); and

(iii) The card issuer has provided a means to identify the cardholder on the account or the authorized user of the card.

(3) Notification to card issuer. Notification to a card issuer is given when steps have been taken as may be reasonably required in the ordinary course of business to provide the card issuer with the pertinent information about the loss, theft, or possible unauthorized use of a credit card, regardless of whether any particular officer, employee, or agent of the card issuer does, in fact, receive the information. Notification may be given, at the option of the person giving it, in person, by telephone, or in writing. Notification in writing is considered given at the time of receipt or, whether or not received, at the expiration of the time ordinarily required for transmission, whichever is earlier.

(4) Effect of other applicable law or agreement. If state law or an agreement between a cardholder and the card issuer imposes lesser liability than that provided in this paragraph, the lesser liability shall govern.

(5) Business use of credit cards. If 10 or more credit cards are issued by one card issuer for use by the employees of an organization, this section does not prohibit the card issuer and the organization from agreeing to liability for unauthorized use without regard to this section. However, liability for unauthorized use may be imposed on an employee of the organization, by either the card issuer or the organization, only in accordance with this section.

Reg E:
(a) Conditions for liability. A consumer may be held liable, within the limitations described in paragraph (b) of this section, for an unauthorized electronic fund transfer involving the consumer's account only if the financial institution has provided the disclosures required by § 1005.7(b)(1), (2), and (3). If the unauthorized transfer involved an access device, it must be an accepted access device and the financial institution must have provided a means to identify the consumer to whom it was issued.

(b) Limitations on amount of liability. A consumer's liability for an unauthorized electronic fund transfer or a series of related unauthorized transfers shall be determined as follows:

(1) Timely notice given. If the consumer notifies the financial institution within two business days after learning of the loss or theft of the access device, the consumer's liability shall not exceed the lesser of $50 or the amount of unauthorized transfers that occur before notice to the financial institution.

(2) Timely notice not given. If the consumer fails to notify the financial institution within two business days after learning of the loss or theft of the access device, the consumer's liability shall not exceed the lesser of $500 or the sum of:

(i) $50 or the amount of unauthorized transfers that occur within the two business days, whichever is less; and

(ii) The amount of unauthorized transfers that occur after the close of two business days and before notice to the institution, provided the institution establishes that these transfers would not have occurred had the consumer notified the institution within that two-day period.

(3) Periodic statement; timely notice not given. A consumer must report an unauthorized electronic fund transfer that appears on a periodic statement within 60 days of the financial institution's transmittal of the statement to avoid liability for subsequent transfers. If the consumer fails to do so, the consumer's liability shall not exceed the amount of the unauthorized transfers that occur after the close of the 60 days and before notice to the institution, and that the institution establishes would not have occurred had the consumer notified the institution within the 60-day period. When an access device is involved in the unauthorized transfer, the consumer may be liable for other amounts set forth in paragraphs (b)(1) or (b)(2) of this section, as applicable.

(4) Extension of time limits. If the consumer's delay in notifying the financial institution was due to extenuating circumstances, the institution shall extend the times specified above to a reasonable period.

(5) Notice to financial institution. (i) Notice to a financial institution is given when a consumer takes steps reasonably necessary to provide the institution with the pertinent information, whether or not a particular employee or agent of the institution actually receives the information.

(ii) The consumer may notify the institution in person, by telephone, or in writing.

(iii) Written notice is considered given at the time the consumer mails the notice or delivers it for transmission to the institution by any other usual means. Notice may be considered constructively given when the institution becomes aware of circumstances leading to the reasonable belief that an unauthorized transfer to or from the consumer's account has been or may be made.

(6) Liability under state law or agreement. If state law or an agreement between the consumer and the financial institution imposes less liability than is provided by this section, the consumer's liability shall not exceed the amount imposed under the state law or agreement.

If you want to read the "official" Fed interpretations, here is the link to the Regs..
Federal Regulations

Frank,

I'm not sure you made a case at all in the above dissertation.

Us financial intermediation is very robust and sophisticated on the institutional level - repo markets, financial markets, intra-bank intermediation ect.

It is worse than third world on consumer level. I am trying to send $20 for a purchase on ar classified - will require a check, mailing ect.

Us consumers get raped by their banks on consumer banking.

If one is worried about financial fraud and identity theft my advice is

Join amazon prime - amazon has been the single best source for keeping a tab on my identity on dark web. You will also get free shipping, movies ect along the way. But if your email and password is on dark web - amazon will contact you.

Use a credit card with x limit for all purchases. Worst worst case x is at risk and you have federal law backing you up.

Get a Special Id from irs to file taxes.

I have structured my capital where 5-6 steps (7 people involved) and minimum one month lag before any funds can be transferred.

I also pay Costco $120 a year for a credit report service.

Also as a general rule - no government authority for funds will cold call you

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Frank,

I'm not sure you made a case at all in the above dissertation.

Todd,
I have worked under reg Z and Reg E oversight since their inception and have seen firsthand how it can affect an individual.
The point I attempted to make is that the rules surrounding Credit Card misuse or fraud (Reg Z) are very different from the rules governing Debit Card abuse or fraud. (reg E)
It is far more cumbersome and demanding on the consumer's part, to resolve an issue with a debit Card vs a Credit card.
The devil is in the details, and the banks, especially the big ones, know them all and take full advantage to protect themselves from losses, NOT US.

So you still have not explained why you disagree..

quote:

Originally posted by Pa.Frank:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Frank,

I'm not sure you made a case at all in the above dissertation.

Todd,
I have worked under reg Z and Reg E oversight since their inception and have seen firsthand how it can affect an individual.
The point I attempted to make is that the rules surrounding Credit Card misuse or fraud (Reg Z) are very different from the rules governing Debit Card abuse or fraud. (reg E)
It is far more cumbersome and demanding on the consumer's part, to resolve an issue with a debit Card vs a Credit card.
The devil is in the details, and the banks, especially the big ones, know them all and take full advantage to protect themselves from losses, NOT US.

So you still have not explained why you disagree..

OK, so you're focused on the repercussions of fraud or misuse. I get that. You said the Debit card should only be used for ATM withdrawals. Would you explain why? For instance, if I purchase something at Target or Wallmart, using my debit card, on a machine where I have to input my pin number, is that less secure than an ATM machine, especially in an establishment where the check out area is under video surveillance? I'm not asking to be snarky. I'm asking because you seem to know something I don't in this regard.

I actually check my online bank activity daily. Sometime more often than that. If something pops up as odd, I usually know about it pretty quickly.

About a year ago, one of my cards was compromised. I found 5 charges that totaled about $3,400. Called my bank. They refunded my money by the end of the business day, then went after the funds from the vendors. Whomever got my card details, purchased car insurance, made a car payment, and purchased some performance car parts with my card. That's the only time my debit card has been compromised and my bank handled it ASAP.

I've been using my debit card for most normal purchases like entertainment (meals, movies, etc), gas, groceries, and the like for more than 10 years now. When purchasing consumer goods, like a TV, etc. I'll run the card as a Credit instead of Debit. I'm under the impression buying consumer goods in this manner, running the card as a credit card, provides some additional protections in the event the item needs to be returned. Am I wrong on that?

Also, in the above described fraud instance, the bank canceled my card and printed a new one on the spot. I walked out the door with a new card in my wallet and the funds back in my account on the same day.

I guess every financial institution is different. Mine got new checks to us before funds had moved from the old account to the new, so the new checks weren't valid yet. Our old debit card was still good, but linked to the new account that didn't have funds yet, so it wasn't valid. The more layers of security you put in place, the harder it is for even you to unravel.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Pa.Frank:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Frank,

I'm not sure you made a case at all in the above dissertation.

Todd,
I have worked under reg Z and Reg E oversight since their inception and have seen firsthand how it can affect an individual.
The point I attempted to make is that the rules surrounding Credit Card misuse or fraud (Reg Z) are very different from the rules governing Debit Card abuse or fraud. (reg E)
It is far more cumbersome and demanding on the consumer's part, to resolve an issue with a debit Card vs a Credit card.
The devil is in the details, and the banks, especially the big ones, know them all and take full advantage to protect themselves from losses, NOT US.

So you still have not explained why you disagree..

OK, so you're focused on the repercussions of fraud or misuse. I get that. You said the Debit card should only be used for ATM withdrawals. Would you explain why? For instance, if I purchase something at Target or Wallmart, using my debit card, on a machine where I have to input my pin number, is that less secure than an ATM machine, especially in an establishment where the check out area is under video surveillance? I'm not asking to be snarky. I'm asking because you seem to know something I don't in this regard.

I actually check my online bank activity daily. Sometime more often than that. If something pops up as odd, I usually know about it pretty quickly.

About a year ago, one of my cards was compromised. I found 5 charges that totaled about $3,400. Called my bank. They refunded my money by the end of the business day, then went after the funds from the vendors. Whomever got my card details, purchased car insurance, made a car payment, and purchased some performance car parts with my card. That's the only time my debit card has been compromised and my bank handled it ASAP.

I've been using my debit card for most normal purchases like entertainment (meals, movies, etc), gas, groceries, and the like for more than 10 years now. When purchasing consumer goods, like a TV, etc. I'll run the card as a Credit instead of Debit. I'm under the impression buying consumer goods in this manner, running the card as a credit card, provides some additional protections in the event the item needs to be returned. Am I wrong on that?

Also, in the above described fraud instance, the bank canceled my card and printed a new one on the spot. I walked out the door with a new card in my wallet and the funds back in my account on the same day.

Todd,

The fact that they reacted to you with just a phone call is very telling. I'm guessing that you are dealing with a local bank, and not one of the big ones, and that you have had a long relationship with them. That is not the experience in the rest of the world. You would have been frozen and required to submit affidavits, etc and depending on the institution, it may take a month or more to get resolved. Also, WHERE you use your debit card really does matter... Target or Walmart are probably low risk because there is very little opportunity for a bad guy to install a skimmer into a card reader without collusion. Gas stations, fuel pumps, or free standing PRIVATELY OWNED ATM's are probably the most risky. But your experience with the $3400 fraud on your debit card is exactly how it would go down with a Credit card. The fact that you caught it quickly and your banking relationship was in your favor. Ask your banker next time your there.
Also the practice of checking your financial accounts on a daily basis is an excellent practice.(I do the same).

There is a video on YouTube by Frank Abagnale, who is still teaching at the FBI, that touches on this and explains it far better than I can... it's quite an interesting video, but long... nearly an hour.. but worth it.

Hey Todd,

I'd like to know how they resolved those fraud purchases on your card... since the guy made a car payment and bought insurance they should have easily been able to identify the bad guy. Was it someone that knew you? Lived nearby? and were charges filed?

quote:

Originally posted by Pa.Frank:
Hey Todd,

I'd like to know how they resolved those fraud purchases on your card... since the guy made a car payment and bought insurance they should have easily been able to identify the bad guy. Was it someone that knew you? Lived nearby? and were charges filed?

Like you, I was curious about how easy it would be to track down the perp. I would also think it to be an easy process in this case.


When I asked how they go about the process, they advised that they can't share any information regarding how they track these guys down when something like this happens. I guess they feel keeping the recovery process confidential helps prevent future fraud schemes. I have no idea how my card was compromised.

I can understand their keeping the "HOW TO" confidential... I work in the industry, and I can't find out either!

But I would think that since you were the victim, that they would need some kind of statement or complaint statement from you in order to pursue them in the courts..

If I discover any more info on this I'll let you know..

I use one of the largest U.S. financial institutions; 2.5 Trillion USD in assets. I was impressed that with all other layers of security, they also use (VR) Voice Recognition to ID the caller when talking by phone.

quote:

Originally posted by Pa.Frank:
I can understand their keeping the "HOW TO" confidential... I work in the industry, and I can't find out either!

But I would think that since you were the victim, that they would need some kind of statement or complaint statement from you in order to pursue them in the courts..

If I discover any more info on this I'll let you know..

I guess my disputing the charges sufficed for that requirement. IDK.

I use credit cards, as opposed to debit cards for two reasons. First is that in the event of fraud, the credit cards company handles it. When my debit card was compromised, the several hundred dollars was just gone for several weeks while they straightened out. I was a college student at the time and didn't exactly have a couple hundred dollars that could go missing. Second is rewards. I used my credit card for all of my day to day purchases. I pay my card off every month. No interest. Cash in my points for gift cards. Essentially free money. Yeah someones paying for it, but it isn't me. All of the small mom and pop stores I shop at around me, I try to use cash so they don't have to pay the fees.

I try to pay off my cards on a monthly basis as well. The credit card companies have a name for folks like us; "Deadbeats". Really. I do have one that I couldn't do that though. One of my machines went down + the replacement bearings + gears were $7000.00. I couldn't write a check for that amount so had to put it on a card. When machinery is down you have to get it back online regardless.