I like diversity in my investments - cash, stocks, bonds, real estate, bullion, firearms ammunition, food, water.

I know which I prefer as far as bullion, but what is your choice, and why?

George

Question:
Which do you prefer for long-term investment?

Choices:
Coins minted by a government (Eagles, Maple Leaves)
Rounds minted by reputable companies (e.g. APMEX)

 

George - I voted for coins for a couple of reasons:

1. There is a market for coins selling to collectors which, over time, may well surpass the value of their weight in precious metal, and

2. If TSHTF, and you need to trade bullion for goods, there s no arguing with some dumb dink about whether it really is gold or sliver if it's minted by a gov'ment. Rounds will be faked by everybody and his brother's dog. Folks will try to fake coins too but is a lot harder to do a decent job of that.

I associate my self with everything AC said--

Coins for me.

Although, the rise and fall can be devastating if you buy in at the wrong time.

Last year about this time, a local guy was buying gold coins at $1700 +/- per ounce. I went buy his shop yesterday, and his sign said $1270 per.

If there is a serious depression who would want to sell coins for paper money?

I will stick with real estate for now.

Rich

Rounds reloaded by me in my garage. You can't shoot coins.....

While I don't prefer either choice for precious metals investing, I chose rounds for the simple reason that the premiums are usually substantially less than the equivalent in coins (which many gov issued bullion "coins" are not really, wanna spend a one ounce US gold coin for $100).

When and if precious metals go really high because of inflation, the premiums for the coins will shrink dramatically, so, IMO, you will get more bang for your bucks buying rounds.

Note, that the above comments refer to investing, not survivalist type situations.

In addition, if you're really going to invest in physical precious metals, I'd recommend bars, again, more ounces for your bucks usually.

In survivalist situations, I recommend US 90% dimes, quarters, and halves. If for some reason, you thought you would use/need gold for survival uses, then I would recommend the "coins" and the widely recognized ones, such as US, Krugers, or Maple leafs in various sizes.

quote:

Originally posted

In addition, if you're really going to invest in physical precious metals, I'd recommend bars, again, more ounces for your bucks usually.

In survivalist situations, I recommend US 90% dimes, quarters, and halves. If for some reason, you thought you would use/need gold for survival uses, then I would recommend the "coins" and the widely recognized ones, such as US, Krugers, or Maple leafs in various sizes.

Agree as to bars...except I'd buy both 10 & 100 oz. bars. When it gets to selling, there are lots of folks out there who can afford to buy 10 oz. bars from you who can not afford 100 oz. size, especially if values continue to escalate.

Likewise, I'd recommend full 1 oz. coins for investment (like Krugerrands) and very small coins ($5 & $10 face value) for survivalist purposes. Not only are the small coins easier to hide from governments and other predators, if you take one to do a trade and are robbed instead, at least you haven't lost a large chunk of your stash.

(I don't think the world is about to come to that, but lots of "survival-investors" do...)

I been investing in other precious metal blued, stainless, ammo and easier to sell.

Well, firearms are fine, but they are kind of hard to divide up if you want to pay/buy with a small amount of money/value. In addition, carrying any serious value of firearms is difficult to say the least. In contrast, current values of gold, a million dollars worth weighs about 53 pound avoirdupois, not something you can put in your pocket, but damn sure easier to handle than the equivalent in firearms (let's say a 1000 at $1000 each).

Ammo and components are easy to divide up and in time of crisis maybe a bit easier to get rid of.

One has to find some one would wants your gold or silver bullion.

I watched two guys try and buy some guns at a gun show with silver and gold coins no one was taking them. The two precious metal dealers there were trying to take them for 30% under spot.

The people that walked in with guns for sale didn't have a problem walking out with cash.

The last I saw the guys with the metal didn't walk out with any guns.

There are times where more practical things have more value.

quote:

I watched two guys try and buy some guns at a gun show with silver and gold coins no one was taking them. The two precious metal dealers there were trying to take them for 30% under spot.

Assuming they were good coins, then there was an amazing display of ignorance and/or greed at that gun show.

Gold and Silver have been a recognized medium of exchange for thousands of years. A fair to middling track record.

As I said, nothing wrong with guns and ammo, but they ain't easy to transport.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

I watched two guys try and buy some guns at a gun show with silver and gold coins no one was taking them. The two precious metal dealers there were trying to take them for 30% under spot.

Assuming they were good coins, then there was an amazing display of ignorance and/or greed at that coin show.

Gold and Silver have been a recognized medium of exchange for thousands of years. A fair to middling track record.

As I said, nothing wrong with guns and ammo, but they ain't easy to transport.

Amen Gatogordo.

Everything has its time and use. And all wise investors recognize that and mix their investments accordingly.

The original poster's question was not whether he should invest in gold & silver, but which is best for long-term purposes, coins or rounds?

As the thread has already been been hijacked, I'll say this...

1. No long term investment is by itself a no-lose commodity.

2. Relying on one thing, such as guns and ammo, is often less then sterling bright.(pun intended) First off, the number of enemies coming to one's "door" may be absolutely such that the "Defender" (and his family) will be executed on the spot if he even displays any firarms, let alone tries to use them. If an investor in those goods doesn't mind falling on his sword, well it takes all kinds, but I would hardly bestow the title of "survivalist" on him.

3. Arms & ammo are among the most difficult metallic possessions there are to hide in this modern hi-tech world, other than vehicles.

4. Coins are somewhat easier because of their smaller mass.

5. One needs to take a look at real life if they are planning for survival in times of social breakdown. A good example for urban dwellers is Mogadishu. The biggest threat to dwellers there was and still is, organized gangs. If you and your neighbors are ALL heavily armed and willing to risk your lives for each other, together, some of you may have a chance.

Alone and apparently unarmed you may have a very small chance as you are no perceived threat. Armed and acting alone or in a small group, you are dead meat.

6. Anyway, this imaginative prediction of the future is mostly hyperbole, boogey-man dreams; any stockpiling of arms & ammo is mostly childish posing.

It is NOT an effective, well planned, fall-back position for the times which are much more likely o occur.

A wise investor will foresee many different stages of "troubles", and will prepare himself with a rational plan first for the most likely, not the least likely.

Naturally, a complete plan will deal with descending levels of social livability.

Having said all that, we all die. Why not live the times we have now as well as possible, without putting ourselves in shackles to future possibilities that most likely we wouldn't even want to endure and survive?

My question had to do with whether coins or rounds were better, i.e., less likely to lose value based on whether they were government-minted or privately-minted.

SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, and zombie scenarios were not mentioned.

While I acknowledge that counterfeiting of coins is not unheard of, would a buyer/seller be more likely to trust one over the other.

I do not buy investment grade firearms; I use them for hunting and enjoyment; However, I do not usually buy junk. I do not want to take a beating in a sale or exchange when I tire of a gun or find it duplicative.

While I do not engage in profiteering, ammunition can return a nice profit if it becomes scarce.

I thank those who answered my question.

George

George-

I have several close acquaintances who own pawn shop/coin store/gold & silver exchanges in three states.

You'd be amazed at how frequently transient (non local) sellers of bars and rounds try to pass off as pure silver bullion items which are everything but that.

Very seldom does anyone try to sell a phony silver or gold coin to them, though there are a fair number of faked "rare" nickels and pennies out there. If you have the tools and expertise to test rounds and can do so before you pay, thn you are almost as safe with them as with coins...but not quite.

With rounds, I also recommend buying ONLY those from nationally known and respected private mints. They are sealed individually into plastic packets and are stamped with coin-like features and precision. And only buy from known sellers.

Some of the better nationally recognized bullion mints are/were
-Wall Street Mint
-Royal Canadian Mint (both .9999 and .9995 grades)
-Sunshine Minting
-Johnson Matthey
-Engelhard
-Handy & Harman

You should note that bars and rounds are much like coins in that they also carry various premiums based on things related to collectability like
-how many are made by that mint per year
-whether the mint is still producing bullion at all
-Rarity,
-how they are packaged, and
-collector or investor demand

Thank you.

My favorite silver coins are the American Eagle and Canadian Maple Leaf coins.

Beside their intrinsic value, they are attractive, too.

George

Coins are better than rounds, but neither would be my choice.

O.K. I see both sides + agree.But let us get back to universal topics. Value for value.That is the heart of the trade system before John Company or Jan Companie ever existed. Ammo works great on a local level;gold + silver are a grand thing.....but who is gonna make change? I'm not leaving anything on the table; are you?

A good friend, now deceased, traded, sold, cashed out all of his stocks and bonds over a 20 - 30 year period and bought gold coins and ingots. He would save money from his retirement and Soc. Security, etc and buy bags of silver coins and more gold.
All the metal, etc was stored at home in huge bankers safe, so that when he died his one and only daughter could just go to his house and pick up the metal and take it to her house and vault.
T his death he had a 15 year old Volvo, his house and personal property.
Not much for the tax man to work with.

Jim

Well, if he died in the last few years unless he had at least $5,000,000 worth, there wouldn't have been anything for the tax man to "work" with, at least on a Federal level, because there wouldn't have been any taxes owed.

In addition, if, as you indicate, his daughter didn't go thru probate with the metal, then she would not have received the stepped up value basis. When and if she goes to sell, she might have a capital gains issue.

I'm not an accountant but often people climb a tree to avoid an issue that would not have been a problem if they stayed on the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
O.K. I see both sides + agree.But let us get back to universal topics. Value for value.That is the heart of the trade system before John Company or Jan Companie ever existed. Ammo works great on a local level;gold + silver are a grand thing.....but who is gonna make change? I'm not leaving anything on the table; are you?

That is why you have a supply of silver dimes, etc.....again, gold and silver are and have been a universally accepted store of value. What if the seller of what you want doesn't want your ammo, or doesn't like your valuation of it? Same situation, forget change, now whacha gonna do?
In fact, in difficult situations, most buyers ALWAYS pay more because they want what the seller has.....I've heard of bottles of scotch selling for outrageous amounts in war zones, for example.

Now that the topic has come up, a LARGE supply of good bonded whisky or scotch might be a great survival store of value, if you could protect it and if you don't have to move.

Back in the days when America ran on gold & silver coins people used a knife and pieces of coins to not leave anything on the table. Check out where the expressions "two bits" , "four bits", and six bits"came from.

All of this is related to the "bit"...a U.S. coin which was worth 12.5 cents. When that disappeared, a quarter or a dime were the only really close approximates left...the dime was known as a "short bit" (not quite as much value as a true bit). When people would lay a quarter on the counter to pay for something normally worth one bit, the seller would often then give them a dime as change...making them pay what was called a "long bit".

Anyway on the frontier or in rural areas where a lot of coinage just wasn't available, A knife and a silver quarter or half dollar, or even a silver dollar could be and frequently was used to produce accepted "bits".

There is no reason that could not work again if needed.

Before America existed,the Carribean hosted the Spanish then English." The pieces of 8" that we hear of are coin sections that can be broken off in 8 pieces. With all due respect, financial change not important,in times of need + hunger,2 rounds of 22 LR is a better barter item than a troy oz.As an aside;my ex. once had a black friend who was in the Watts riots.When all the looting was going on all his buddies were stealing stereos,T.V.'s,etc. He was looting toilet paper + kotex.All the bucks made fun of him the first week.Not after that. The women in the community knew what he had. Foresight is all I'm advocating.As all good financial advisors will tell you,don't put all your eggs in one basket.I recommend both.No matter what happens in the intrem,gold + silver will always bring a decent return.Those .22 rounds might allow you to see it.

Today, Ammunition, or even pistols and "assault rifles" might be a better investment than gold and silver.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Today, Ammunition, or even pistols and "assault rifles" might be a better investment than gold and silver.

I consider that speculation, not investment.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Today, Ammunition, or even pistols and "assault rifles" might be a better investment than gold and silver.

I consider that speculation, not investment.

George

Well, if you buy new at a good price, or used at a good price, then the chances of actually losing money are fairly slim since labor and production costs continue to climb all the time, which translates into higher prices new and used. OTOH, it is unlikely that such an "investment" or speculation will really leap in value.

Compared to gold and silver I actually think firearms MIGHT be a better "investment" for a couple of reasons. First the downside is very limited with firearms bought correctly. Compared to gold and silver which not long ago were well below $10/oz for silver and $800/oz for gold, there is some significant downside POTENTIAL in both. It may not happen, but it certainly could.
In addition, there is the nagging detail of reporting requirements for precious metal sales over a certain amount. That amount could be lowered. Of course, countering these quibbles is the not at all unreal possibility of a government grab of certain types of firearms, a la Connecticut and California.

Don't get me wrong, I like gold and silver at these levels, but the key word is "like", not love. As a matter of fact, I converted almost all of my precious metals holdings over the last couple of years to other areas of investing.

Once again, I agree with Gatogordo. I have completely divested myself of precious metals, though it wouldn't have hurt to hang onto a few Krugerrands and maybe 200 ounces of silver as a small part of my portfolio.

Anyway, what I see Gg saying is that every large investment should be made with specific goals. If you buy anything that costs a lot, set the margin you want to profit by and let that determine when you will sell.

When it has gained that much profit, get rid of at least enough of it to regain your initial investment...after that you are playing with someone else's dimes for however long the rest of the time you hold it.

NO one can buy at the bottom price and sell at the top price of market swings, because no one has the ability to tell where the absolute bottoms and absolute tops will be in ANY kind of market.

The secret to doing well financially (other than miraculous good luck) is to buy cheap and sell when you have a profit...and keep your eyes and mind open for what you will invest in next.


If you start with $100, make $7 on it, then take the $7 and invest it in something else which looks good, bit by bit, repeated enough times, you will be financially independent and secure.

Of course, you really should CYA to start with by investing your original $100 in several different "baskets" not put all of your eggs in just one basket. Otherwise you may lose $7 or more instead of gaining. And as everyone knows, if you sell for less than you paid, you CAN'T make it up on either "churn" or volume.

For many years after it was legal I collected gold coins. I did it for the coin value not the gold value. At one time I had a complete set of British Soveriegns and made considerable on them when I sold them as a set for their coin collector value. I had Hungarian Kronas, Swiss Helvetias,Mexican Pesos, French and other lesser known at the time gold coins.Then I got to collecting silver 1oz ingots with some very pretty ones which I still have, Haven't bought anything in years though I think gold is a fair investment I prefer stocks or bonds for investment.

I would have said guns aren't much of an investment, but I paid $100 for a new Remington Model 600 in .308 Win, in the mid-60s. I notice they go for around $1,300 today.

Gold was $35.12 an ounce then. It's now $1,329, about the same as the Model 600.

Silver was around $1.28 an ounce in the mid-60s. It is around $21.25 today. (If you bought silver along with the Hunt brothers in 1980, the price hit $49.45 an ounce, but of course if you had, you wouldn't be reading this. You would have already swallowed the end of your shotgun long ago.)

Whatever the investment; timing is everything.

Stocks, coins, and baseball cards have one thing in common. You buy the right one, you can really ring the bell. Pick the wrong one and you'll be lucky to ever get your head above water.

I don't have another 50 years to wait. I'll stay with real estate and stocks.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
I would have said guns aren't much of an investment, but I paid $100 for a new Remington Model 600 in .308 Win, in the mid-60s. I notice they go for around $1,300 today.

Gold was $35.12 an ounce then. It's now $1,329, about the same as the Model 600.

Silver was around $1.28 an ounce in the mid-60s. It is around $21.25 today. (If you bought silver along with the Hunt brothers in 1980, the price hit $49.45 an ounce, but of course if you had, you wouldn't be reading this. You would have already swallowed the end of your shotgun long ago.)

Yes, inflation (reduction in the value of the dollar) has caused every thing to sell for vastly more these days.

Whatever the investment; timing is everything.

Stocks, coins, and baseball cards have one thing in common. You buy the right one, you can really ring the bell. Pick the wrong one and you'll be lucky to ever get your head above water.

I don't have another 50 years to wait. I'll stay with real estate and stocks.

One big advantage to investment grade stocks is that they pay dividends while being held unsold. Neither guns, rounds, gold, or much of anything else does that. But then, stocks carry more risk too.

One of the advantages of decades of investment experience is that if he/she watches and learns from what has happened before, they learn to recognize the signs of market changes. That won't allow them to reliably predict when market changes will occur, but it does enable them to recognized immediately when the changes are occurring and they can buy or sell (as appropriate) earlier.