The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Other Topics Miscellaneous Topics Remington in trouble!!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Someone wiser than I blames it on Trump. When Obama was in and Hillary was running, decent Americans were scared shitless that the libs would take away gun rights. Now folks are fairly relaxed. Go figure.  There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Only years ago Remington swore they would never leave Ilion.They had been there since Jesus was a choir boy.Then they decided to move south,like most of the others + the clear thinking ones.This whole mess has goe into overdrive. I say again,if you are not an NRA member,you need to be.I know it sucks for folks to ask you for money;always has. Now it is important....again.OBTW,our governor Abbott has waived fees for open/concealed carry as it is unlawful for the government to fine you for a right. I like that. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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Remington loaded up with debt to buy the various arms manufacturers and sporting good makers they did. Now that decision is going to haunt them. They'll come up with the money, bankers and VCs have ways, until they don't. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Also, Americans are not buying the firearms that Remington makes. They are buying Ar15's and self defense handguns, at a price point that Remington cannot meet. I suspect that even that market will be saturated pretty soon, if not already Without a significant presence in the military marketplace I think that Remington may be the canary in the mine. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Doesn't the remmy parents own DPMS and Bushmaster, will they go down with the ship and drag Marlin too? | |||
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Remington was bought out by financial people who probably vote Democrat and write gun-control letters to newspaper editors on Sunday nights. Shooters are divided on the question of triggers and why they weren't improved when the cost was pennies; their support for Remington is somewhat limited. The financialization of the company will be its downfall just as it was for Dade-Behring when Mitt Romney's crappy friends bought that company. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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Anyone remember the game of RISK? We played that 24/7 in a house off campus in the early 70's. One got tired,someone else took the slot;that game went on for months,nonstop.THIS is not a game but the similaraties are too obvious to ignore. O.K. call it corporate greed/profit sharing et al. the end result is another firearms mfg. in trouble; thus no sales to the public.PLEASE stay with me on this as it is about our nation.JOBS,JOBS,JOBS. That is what we are talking about.What does everyone care about? A job.The left by their own agenda has severely hurt Americans in the work force + having nothing to do with laws or rights but only on what they want.I assume that this should go to the the political forum,however I don't deal with syphallitic ideas. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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You could probably substitute a bunch of other gun manufacturers' names into that story, too. I would imagine the business is down all over the place. No excuses for banking on the panic buying the Democrat threat caused, nor the normalization of the market following their losses. Sales are not "down"; they are where they should be when people aren't scared for endless legislation against firearms. I really, really like Remington, but they lost their way when they sold out to the VC some years ago. Corporate silliness at its finest. I will say, the market for the consumer this Xmas season is fantastic! They can't give this stuff away fast enough!! _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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It is call buying good companies taking out as much money as possible then cutting and running. Leaving the companies holding the bag. | |||
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Isn't that capitalism? "Remington was bought out by financial people who probably vote Democrat and write gun-control letters to newspaper editors on Sunday nights. " Got any evidence for that statement? Let's see, they buy a company and then try to drive it out of business losing their shirt in the process! That makes a lot of sense. How long can they keep doing this? A real recipe for financial success, right! Sorry, your statement is just complete BS. Added. I think that perhaps the market for AR15's and self defense handguns is saturated. Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Saturated or not,during the last administration I was at McBrides Gun Store in Austin + noticed a framed picture of Obama which caught my eye because I did'nt expect to see it there. On closer inspection there was a brass plaque on the frame that read "Gun Salesman Of The Year." Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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VCs borrow a ton of money through the victim company, jazz up the balance sheet best they can, and dump the bleeding carcass on investors who don't know. The recipe for financial success is getting your "management fees" and getting out before the bills come due. From the time DuPont dumped Remington, they've been in trouble and it might not end pretty. Wikipedia says Cerberus Capital owns Freedom Group (Bushmaster, Remington, DPMS, and Marlin) and wants to dump it. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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Remember what the Cerberus geniuses did when they bought Marlin and closed the New Haven plant? It screwed up the brand horribly for years. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Maybe, maybe not. The transition was a little rough as to be expected, but I'm reading about the "new" Marlins being better than the old. I think who it screwed up were Marlin fanatics who, like most of us, hate any kind of change. Probably like Lone Star, too. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Declining sales make it tough to pay the principal and interest on a $1/4 Billion. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Agreed TomP, but, having said that, the new investors (who don't know), could not be very smart, unless they went public again! So, the folks who get hurt are the employees, but that can'r be right because capitalism creates American jobs! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I went to the New Haven plant once to get a part for a friend's Marlin; I told the receptionist what I needed and five minutes later the guy who made them brought me two of them (the cartridge guide spring that goes on the Model 80). No charge. I bought two more Marlins in the intervening years, why not? As to the matter of VCs financializing otherwise good companies, look up what Mitt Romney's buddies did to Dade-Behring. It's not very nice. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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No | |||
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Oh??!! Isn't this the private ownership of the means of production. Isn't this ownership of the operation for profit? Isn't this capital accumulation? Isn't the decision making and investment determined by the owners of the operation? Please explain why this is NOT capitalism. I KNOW what you won't say: This is pure capitalism, but it is not in the best interests of the country and therefore must be regulated. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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There is a temptation to regulate damfools who abuse the system, but it might in the long run be better to let them run, and the general public recognize and shun them. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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I understand your point, but I am pretty sure they are not damnfools! It seems to me they are pretty smart. After all you don;t call Trump a damnfool, but he has filed for bankruptcy 3 or 4 times and stiffed other people as part of the process. Note that these people were not necessarily large corporations, but regular contractors who had provided goods and services for which they were not paid. So, these damnfools are just playing by the rules of the game. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Venture capital plunder of a firm is immoral. But having venture capital funds is also needed. Can we write a law to ban that behavior? Given that corporate pirates are usually significantly smarter than legislators they usually get around a law that is passed to deal with a moral outrage that is poorly written. Kinda like campaign finance laws. Would the cure be worse than the the disease in this situation? Moral and legal are different things; and it’s pretty difficult to legislate morality well. | |||
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I knew the Cerberus guy who came up with the idea to roll up firearms industry. He was a smart guy who liked guns. Sandy hook did them in. The investor base of cerbrus funds did not want their capital invested in a firearms firm. Entities were transferred out of funds into GP controlled entities. Cerberus has paid itself its capital over the years in special dividends and company level management fees. Trump did not help - democrats are better for gun sales. The reality also is way too many guns are in circulation. Normal wear and tear does not account for 1/10 of the guns sold today. Also a very small percentage of gun buyers buy most guns. Mike | |||
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Beretta, I posted this earlier in the thread. If Cerberus is trying to dump it's firearms business then some savvy gun enthusiast with money could probably buy them at a steal and make a killing! Not going to happen IMHO. The hunting market does not seem to be doing well, at least based on the numbers of hunting licenses being issued. Now, the prices of hunting rifles is coming down, but hunters don't tend to buy new rifles every year! So, that leaves the firearms enthusiasts like us who own a lot of firearms individually, and have the discretionary income to support that hobby. I would not own stock in a firearms manufacturer who make firearms strictly for the civilian market. Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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The military market is worse. Most gun manufactures supplying military weapons go bankrupt. HK for one. Why few defense manufactures play around in small arms - rifles and pistols. There is a reason - it is a sh@t product and. Usiness line. The gun industry in the aggregate was a joke. Few good gun guys (designers) know how to run a business. Look at bill ruger - terrible CEO of a public company. Gaston Glock who has become a billionaires has a run dis functional company. The glock handgun remarkable manufacturing cost has offset a corporate culture of corruption. Smith and Wesson has been a joke for years. Finally the gun business got rationalized and competetent management from outside gun industry took over. Cerberus view was to get into a sector that was fragmented and not well run. Roll it up, cut costs, create a scale company and go public. Problem is it never acquired a quality handgun firm and today's market is tacticool (non patented ar 15 based) and handguns. Also after sandy hook there is little public market appetite to fund firearms via ipos. A lot of institutions won't own gun manufactures. Mike | |||
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Mike, good points. How many times hast Colt gone BK? What about Winchester/USRA? The the consolidate and roll up has worked in many industries, but I think this may be the first major time for the firearm industry in the USA. Beretta has done it well with Sako, Benelli, and Uberti. Blazer is making a go at it. Speaking of Glock, I suggest reading the book titled as such. I picked it up at MIA during a layover coming from Argentina. I see Glocks as like hammers or screwdrivers, but I now own more Glocks than hammers. It’s quite the story. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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Beretta, I take your points, but from the consumer point of view I have to disagree with some of the names you mentioned. S&W. I own plenty of these including a Model 41, 629, 659 etc. All are quality products. Ruger. I own a Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44 mag. a Blackhawk in 45 Colt (both SS) and a Ruger 22lr/22mag. The Blackhawks are very nice guns. Now Ruger rifles are a different matter. I have yet to find one that shoots as well as a Remington, say. Glock. I own several, my favorite being the Glock 17L. I understand that you are talking about how the companies are run, but surely the products have to count for something? An interesting question would be: "How many countries have a thriving home grown firearms manufacturing industry, and where do they sell their products? Turkey does, primarily for export. France and Germany do, but I don't think the volume is that great is it? Italy, in the premier shotgun area. Brazil perhaps, for export? Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Product is kind of irrelevant. Beretta makes some very high end guns and loses money making them. They make enough on their on the run stuff, Glock makes a $60 gun and sell it for $300 - along the way it is the most dysfunctional billion dollar private company. Smith and Wesson has multi generational families working in its plants. I don't think even ford and gym have as long a line of families working for a product line as smith and Wesson - also why revolvers are kind of tough to bang out mass market. It's managements have been a collection of idiots. Bill ruger was a great gun designer. As CEO he was a micro manager - most likely even choosing the toilet paper the company bought. Guns are a irrelevant business relative to GDP - the death and destruction they create is not. There is no real consumer gun market outside the us. Why the hell the damn shot show is so big baffels my mind. A very big part of the gun industry is marketing image etc I hope consumers benefit. But the reality is also the modern firearm has reached in efficiency limit - nothing really new will happen for a while. Mike | |||
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Sounds like another "man will never fly" moment to me. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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In cartridge firearms it has - like HK CEO once told me "it's not like we make laser guns" Till the military side changes to alternative to metal enclosed cartridge and bullets become smart - all we are doing is playing around the perimeter. A 2017 blaser is not that different than a 1970 Remington 700. Same cannot be said about anything electronic. Mike | |||
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Well, of course, you are comparing an old technology to a developing technology. The river is never the same today as yesterday, we'll see. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Again, not sure I agree, Beretta. I think that Ruger's Precision Rifle is very interesting. My Canik TP9 SFX has a Glock style trigger with a very fast reset. Reflex sights mounted on the slide of a semi auto are also very interesting. I am mounting one on my Canik as I am writing this and look forward to trying it out. I have a couple of race guns with red dots mounted on the frame, but these seem much "cleaner". I have a Kimber in 38 Super with laser grips. Quite a nice setup. I think there are some interesting things happening in the firearms world, and will open the wallet when something that works interests me. Interestingly enough, they came out with caseless ammo (electric ignition) several years ago and it did not take off, presumably because the military did not adopt it. I see nothing new in the skeet world, although it would be nice if someone came up with a competitor to Evosign for a decent International Skeet stock setup! Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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