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AMERICAN RIFLEMAN GUN TESTS the National Rifle Association, (NRA) publishes a magazine, “American Rifleman”, with the results of gun and ammunition tests. These tests include smallest group size, largest group size and average group size for sets of five, 5-shot groups. (Group Size is the distance between centers of the two furthest-apart holes in the target.) The expected ratio of (largest group size) / (smallest group size), varies with the number of shots per group, and the number of groups per set. The American Rifleman sets have five shots per group and five groups per set; and the expected ratio of (largest group size) / (smallest group size) is 1.91. (See “5 GROUP SIZE RATIOS”, EXCEL.) The calculated ratio for the 251 American Rifleman tests is 1.57. This calculated ratio is extremely unlikely; and strongly suggests that many of the test results were untrue. The ratio for any individual test can vary widely, but the average ratio for 251 tests will be close to the expected ratio, and almost always LARGER than the expected ratio. Records of my own shooting, International Benchrest Shooters, (IBS) 2017 National Match, Cast Bullet Association, (CBA), National Matches in 2015, and some of Larry Landercasper’s results; 1011 sets, all average averages of the ratio of (largest group size) / (smallest group size) GREATER than the expected ratio. The analysis of the NRA data shows that that data, largest group size, smallest group size and average group size, do not “go together”; thus the conclusion that many of the NRA test results are untrue. References available on request: “LARGEST OVER SMALLEST”, EXCEL “5 GROUP SIZE RATIOS”, EXCEL ‘NRA DATA”, EXCEL See also: “On the Extreme Individuals and the Range of Samples Taken from a Normal Population” L. H. C. Tippett Biometrika, Vol. 17, No. 3/4 (Dec., 1925), pp. 364-387 Table X Joseph Brennan joeb33050@yahoo.com joe b. | ||
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Sorry Joe, but I do not understand this statement! Are you saying that the tester was lying? Without getting into the weeds, I DO look carefully at the AR test results, and find the testing methodology of 5, 5 shot groups to be good enough from my perspective, which, is ;"Do I want to consider buying this firearm". Even firearms in the "target" category seem to give quite realistic, as opposed to, "gun writer", results. I don't look at 'expected results" I look at actual results ie. on any given day, if I took this rifle out to shoot, what would be a reasonable expectation. I am NOT interested in buying a rifle that once in it's lifetime, shot "in the one's". Just my 2 cents, Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Why I Shoot blasers  Mike | |||
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"Why I Shoot blasers" Have they ever reviewed Blasers? Interestingly enough I clearly remember an AR review of a Tikka M65 in 300WM, probably about 30 years ago. On the strength of that review I bought the same rifle, AND the same scope that they tested it with, a Hakko. I still have the rifle and scope! Very accurate and a pleasure to shoot. Now, my Blaser has 3 barrels: 300WM, 375 H&H, and 7mm RM. It shoots "lights out" with all three barrels! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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The one major leap in logic is that if you buy one of the firearms tested that it will do the same. Two completely different pieces of equipment that we hope will perform to the same level. Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits | |||
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Not really a leap in logic, TC. It is a new fangled thing called manufacturing. If people ordered a Honda and received a Ford, Honda would be out of business VERY quickly. This manufacturing idea means that when I see someone driving a 2005 Lexus SC330, I can say "We have the same car"! This does not mean that the two vehicles look the same. they may be different colors, but it does mean that they "perform to the same level". Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Rifle barrels are interesting creatures. It depends on how one defined expected performance. Even with blaser barrels I have seen some shoot .75 moa and others .20 moa. My shooting in 100 fold more inconsistent than Blaser barrels so it is kind of irrelevant. Mike | |||
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You can do what you wish. As far as I am concerned, for our tests, 5, 5-shot groups are good enough! I am not going to get into guessing games by using a computer software!  | |||
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If the groups follow 'normal' distribution the ratio of largest to average seems to be about 1.73 for 5 shot groups. What use this is I have no idea. C.G.B. | |||
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If want a true "real world" test of accuracy then try following. It takes good gear to an inch/ Put up target and fire a shot from a clean cold barrel. Wait 10 minutes or so then fire another shot. Wait a few hours and then fire another shot with cold hard fouling. That is 3 shots but more to go.  Wait a couple of days or a week and put the target back up. Fire a shot without having cleaned the barrel. Alternatively clean the barrel after the first day's shooting and how you would clean in the field. Wait a few hours and fire another shot from a cold fouled barrel. That is 5 shots. It is a very tough test. For starters some rifle will have bedding or scope or mount issues and often the first couple of shots is like pushing something into a corner so the next 5 shots in a row go well. The above testing system brings out any such faults. | |||
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Somebody is lying at AR, hence the mathematically impossible long term reports. joe b. | |||
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Sorry but not true, this business of "performing to the same level". Take for example guitars. In fact, take 6 "identical" Gibson Les Paul Customs and line them up. Have a guitarist play each "identical" instrument. There will be one or two that really connects to the player. Why? They are all the same make and model. But within this "new fangled thing called manufacturing", there are slight differences that produce synergies greater than the sum of the parts on some individual pieces and less than the sum of all parts on others. The same applies to the same make and model rifles / barrels. For that matter, same make and model ammo. Differences in powder lot can have significant variations. I think that's the point TCLouis was trying to make. (For some reason I keep thinking about those Telsa Model 3's built in the parking lot tent! LOL ) Regardless of how tight the Quality Control process is in narrowing these differences, they will continue to exist none the less. Some companies are better at minimizing these differences than others. You Blaser guys tout accuracy of the rifles as being a key factor in their appeal. I say they need something to offset their horribly ugly appearance. Kind of like an ugly gal having a nice personality to make up for the lack of visual appeal to the opposite sex! lol. Different interests I suppose as I really don't care about the difference between a 1 MOA rifle and a .5 MOA rifle. Both are plenty accurate enough to place a bullet in the right spot on an animal at normal hunting distances. For that matter, "normal hunting distances" is subjective. Especially for DG, I don't care about shooting more than 50 yards, 100 at the very most. Other species, short of something like sheep hunting where terrain can be a limiting factor, 2 or 3 hundred yards on a whitetail, elk, kudu, etc, is reaching out there for my wheelhouse. But to each his own.  | |||
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God you are a Luddite  Everyone who is anyone knows Tesla and Blaser are the future  Mike | |||
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Right!  But like I've told you many times Mike, when it comes to rifles, guitars, and cars, I'm not interested in "the future". I'm interested in vintage gear. Nostalgia man.  I mentioned this in another topic but I had a 2002 Viper (stick shift and clutch) and 2007 Ferrari 599 (F1 Paddle Shift) at the same time a couple of years ago. I sold the Ferrari and doubt I'll ever sell the Viper. The F car was by far the superior sports car. Faster, more comfortable, more refined, easier to drive hard on the tract, etc. But in the end, it just didn't feel special when you got in it. It was soft unless you pushed it really really hard at which point it would shine. The Viper on the other hand ... Well, it's just a knuckle dragging beast. Cramped, loud, rumbles and shakes, you feel every thing on the road through the steering wheel, all the traction control is in your right foot and how you coordinate that right foot with the left while shifting. Heel/Toe technique downshifting and slowing into a turn. That sort of thing. Just a more engaging experience over all, even though it's a couple of seconds slower around the track. Yep, vintage all the way!!! Missed you at DSC! | |||
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It’s called being a Luddite Would have been good to meet up at dsc. On being old and vintage and Luddite - the 300 H&H. The admiral/subsailor74 loaded your 300h&h load and in my ruger Number 1 300h&h it shoots a ragged hole. Very impressed. Mike | |||
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