A recent discussion here on AR caused me to pause for a moment and offer up the following for discussion.

Upon graduation from high school in 1967 I enrolled in the school of hard knocks. It was not by choice. I had no where else to go. I had no money and few options. There was no where to turn for help. It was a difficult time.

I took employment at fast food, retail, and construction. I prouldly served in the Marines.

I eventually went on to earn undergraduate and advanced degrees, as well as certificates, from California State University, UCLA, and USC. In the end I achieved a modest level of success.

When I finally got near the top of the ladder I was climbing I found the others around me to be pretty much evenly leveled out among those with experience such as mine, and those who had gone directly to university.

There were the "Blue Bloods" and then there were the "...others." We sat together in the boardroom every Thursday, side by side. And there was the everpresent bias about which school we went to.

There were two striking differences between the two groups though. First, my group was a few years older. Secondly, we seemed, at least to me, to be more confident, both personally and professionally. We were more at ease with ourselves, unafraid, relaxed, willing to take risks. I don't know how else to say it, except that there was just something different between the two types.

I'd like to offer an opinion as to which group was the most effective during my time, but I won't. To be honest, both types did pretty well. But since I was part of one, it would be dishonest to pass judgement on the other.

So I'll beg your comments.

Setting aside for a moment the need for specific training in science, law, medicine or other highly specialized pursuits, what are your toughts about the relative merits of life experience and formal education, and military service, as they relate to professional success? Certainly there is a proper balance.

What kind of leaders should we be looking for today?

Best to you all.......TWL

I'd suggest those with military service. The hardest thing to acquire, in my humble opinion, is discipline.

The military provides that, along with the need for teamwork, and perseverance under pressure.

Once you have been shot at, nothing else will faze you.

quote:

I'd suggest those with military service. The hardest thing to acquire, in my humble opinion, is discipline.

The military provides that, along with the need for teamwork, and perseverance under pressure.

In my experience ex-military make good employees..........

Military service followed by, and during, a college education. My advice to my grandsons is to
go to college after high school and enroll in ROTC with a plan to enter the service for a term after
graduation.

Every kid needs to try to find the right fit in life. Get as much formal education as possible is the best start.

If the military works for you, or provides a safety net because you can't for some reason get the formal education, and don't have the experience to get a job with a future, join the military. Have some ambition. Work your way up, don't accept being a "grunt" in everything you do in life. I've seen military service have a 180 degree effect on some people's life; went in as a wandering soul, and came out an adult.

My experience is that for many young people, their plan to get from Point-A to Point-B doesn't end-up at Point-B. That's life. Be ready to step through when a door opens, even if it's not the one you expected, or thought you wanted.

A formal education is nothing to be ashamed of, nor is the lack of a formal education. It is the lack of trying to better yourself, or your life that is the shame. At the end of your life you won't have bitching rights. You are responsible for what happened to you. You are what limited you. I've known a number of people that just couldn't get out of their own way, and that's why they never got what they wanted in life. Others you could hand the key to a better future and they would be too dumb to take it.

Neither a formal education nor the military will be able to save a fool.

I was fortunate enough to get a college education. I attended Gunsmith school and continued to a four year college and graduated with a BS. I got my first job as a result of a co-op program with a major manufacturer. I was then drafted and served 2 years on active duty and 4 in the reserves. I returned to the job I held before I was drafted and had continouous employement till I retired. I can say with surety all the jobs I held were directly a result of having a BS degree though absolutely none were in the area of my degree field. I would not have had them offered had I not had the degree. As to the impact of military service,it is exactly what YOU make of it. I remember an occurance of a person with a degree and his feelings of being drafted and his feeling that he wouldn't do anything because the NCO's were less qualified (in education) than he was. He had a Masters degree. As a result he shaved as he was required to and his uniforms were atrocious and his boots never polished as a result he was constantly picked for KP,guard duty (and when on guard routinely failed inspection and was given other menial dities as punishment) and was consistantly picked for any dirty detail. On the other hand I made every effort to have a perfect uniform and took great pride in my spit shined boots (In fact I bought Corcoran Jump Boots for a better appearance) and when I was on guard I was regularly picked as supernimery meaning I was a spare and didn't have to walk guard unless there was a problem. Because of this I had a steady string of 3-day passes and was even selected battalion soldier of the month once (failed the competition for post soldier of the month). So I really think the military is what YOU make of it. In my working life I always remembered what my Father told me ' Make money for the person hiring you and you will always have a job - you have to remember that a person or company is in business to make money not jobs'. I paid attention to that rule and was constantly employed throughout my working life and during that period the large companies I worked for closed the place I worked on two occaisons but kept me and found a position for me. Your work ethic like any other of your ethics is yours and yours alone to form. My Father was insistent on a College education ( he had a correspondence school degree) he said a person with an engineering degree made the best service station attendants as they understood what they were doing.

I think our generation has dropped the ball in some respects. My grandfather's and my father's generation took great pride in seeing that their children had all the opportunities for a better, easier life than they had. If they could get their children, or at least one of their children a college education, that was a stunning achievement for those parents, and they were rightfully proud. In many third world countries that mentality still exists.

I'm afraid my generation in the U.S. may be the first selfish generation that feels better about themselves if their children are less successful than they are. Why else would people still question the value of a higher education?

The bar in the real world keeps getting raised. Whereas a Bachelors degree used to get all the doors to open, it takes a Masters degree these days.

My education involved nothing more than barely squeaking by and graduating from High School. I look at this whole subject from a different POV.

If an individual did go to college and earned a degree in the/a field that helped the be successful in their working life, that is great. What I question however are those individuals, and I have met and know/known quite a few, that graduated HS and the began collecting degrees in all manners of esoteric areas that rarely if ever benefitted them in the work place.

I was one of the last people hired as a keeper at the Fort Worth Zoo that did not have a college degree of any kind. I worked there for almost 25 years, retiring in 2006. During that time I had people that I supervised that had one or more degrees, and they were cleaning up after animals just like me, but because the premise of needing a College degree had been pushed on these people so much that their BA in English Literature even though worked for really was not doing them any good as compared to say a degree in accounting or one of the biological fields.

It has always bothered me that society began placing so much value on having a college degree that it did not matter what field of study the degree was in, even if it was something that had/has no practical application in the real world work place. Many times, because I was in a supervisory position, I sat in on interviews and reviewed job applications. On many occasions, people that were better qualified due to actual experience were passed over in favor of someone with a degree, simply because the people doing the hiring had college degrees.

Actual/practical real world experience/knowledge/ability did not matter to those doing the hiring. Hiring another college graduate was all that mattered even though the position being filled consisted of feeding animals and cleaning up after them.

I have always felt, that regardless of the number of degrees a person has collected during their life, filling out an application and listing your latest position for the past however long consisted of being a Fecal Relocation Expert at a zoo is not going to look real impressive. JMO.

I saw all kinds of prejudice from all directions. Graduate engineers wouldn't wear a class ring or acknowledge they had a degree if they were working in the field in the late 60s, early 70s. Most rig hands didn't have degrees and made life miserable for those that did.

In the late 70s, early 80s boom, people with masters degrees, but no experience in the industry were brought in to run companies because they had a Masters in Business. We took a brow beating in the board room from a rookie with a Masters that was our new CFO. He described how poorly we ran our business, with too much money in the bank, and no leverage in the street. Said we ran the company like it was owned by widows and orphans. He took a 50 year old, financially sound company and bankrupted it in less than five years.

The best teams I ever saw, were built with degreed people and experienced people without degrees, listening to each other and respecting what the other brought to the table.

The guy that gave me my break didn't have a degree, fought in WWII, worked his way up from worm, and became our VP. He respected people with a degree, if they had an equal amount of common sense. I think he hired me because I told him I didn't have the experience I thought I needed for the job, nor the equipment knowledge. He told me he had a boatload of people with equipment knowledge, and people with experience, but they weren't willing to accept progress and change. I got the job.

It takes all types.

I think the point got across when I fired a hammer-headed, 6'7" drilling superintendent that had thirty years of experience with the company, but a history of creating trouble. He immediately drove 600 miles to tell my boss what had happened to him. My boss told him he shouldn't have wasted his time; he should have been looking for a job, and sent him on his way.

Very broadly speaking, I've heard people complain about schools no longer teaching latin and now focusing on remedial english, in the next sentence, deride the scholars for not being able to drive a nail.

Which do you want?

Education is vital. Formal, "school of hard knocks", street savy, apprenticeship, whatever. I've encouraged my kids to excellence and the analogy I use is, "Why be a pilot when you can be a commercial pilot, why be a commercial pilot when you could be a fighter pilot, why be a fighter pilot when you could be an astronaut?" Keep working, keep trying, keep challenging yourself. As that applies to education, I'd happily pay for a phd in underwater basket weaving if it challenged the student, if it was going to make them a better person, if under water basket weaving was going to advance our culture or society.

The cure for cancer, AIDS, nuclear holocaust and religious bigotry ain't gonna get found by a society that sez, "To heck with it,.........good enough!" When we're on our back in the ER looking up thru the haze of our gigantic heart attack, do you want to see doctors and nurses looking down at you who've graduated from John Hopkins at the top of their class with undergrad work in history and latin or do you want to see coorespondense school grads?

Our education system is the guarantee of our future salvation or destruction. Maybe we won't last past this generation but I'd like to think in my senior years I've some assistance beyond a cosmetology school certificate holder.

As to a practical education, well thats really up to the individual families. My kids know how to start a chainsaw, operate the snow plow, fillet a salmon and drive a nail. One is pre med, the other is pre law. The third is back in prison and although he knows how to drive nails he obviously can't handle basic arithmatic.

Urban families have limited opportunities to learn how to drive a tractor or butcher a cow. books/ computer screens are whats available in the city and in many cases the only opportunity to learn. The minority of us that live in "the sticks," have diverse education opportunities not practical in New York.

Great response Kensco, and you made the point I was unable to. It does take all kinds and people working for the same company have to liosten to each other and respect each other for their knowledge/ability.

My family was VERY, VERY poor financially when I was young. My father, a Comanche Indian, found it almost impossible to find a job in white society to support himself and his extended family. But my mother taught me to read by the time I was 3, and better yet, gave me a love of learning. I can tell you from almost 80 years of experience that BOTH book learning and work experience are very important in making one's self the best life possible, and everyone everywhere should try to accumulate all they can of ALL kinds of knowledge. . A person who thinks he or she has nothing of practical value left to learn in either area is truly ignorant. One can never tell which bit of knowledge may make life easier or better for them in the future.

When I was 5, I entered grade school, and by the time I was 7 was in the third grade (I skipped 2nd grade). Was reading at a level where I knew and understood books such as Alice in Wonderland - Through the looking Glass, all of Dicken's works, most of Victor Hugo's, Kafka, and lots of other allegorical classics.

By the time I was 9, I was in middle school. About the same time, I pretty much put homework and completing assignments on hold. I had discovered the joys of earning a regular income, sports, cars, and girls, not necessarily in that order. So, I got A's in the subjects I liked and C-'s in those I didn't enjoy but had to take anyway. I still loved learning, so I read every chemistry, aeronautics, astronomy, physics, logic, geology, and outdoor adventure book in the San Jose public library by the time I was 12 (and was making black powder, nitroglycerine, and other stuff in my home lab I bought the equipment and chemicals for. Lucky I didn't kill all of us, as I had not yet learned I was only mortal.) I also carried two paper routes (one morning, one evening), picked prunes, apricots, and cherries 7 days a week during the summers, and when 12, began working every evening six days a week as a two-cycle engine repairman trainee and then journeyman. Friday nights I would go to a dance at St. Patrick's church.

In high school I continued working, and added the swim team and football team, guitar and trumpet lessons to my already overcrowded schedule and designed the cover for the high school yearbook each year. Graduated when I was 15, but was in the lower third of my class academically.

Still managed to get accepted at San Jose Sate University due to extremely high SAT scores; majored in bacteriology. Had to drop out without taking my term finals at the end of my first year though, due to very severe family problems at home. My grades were good, because I enjoyed my subjects, so even though I didn't get to take my finals, I got a C average for the term.

Left home on my own at 16 and went to the L.A. area looking for work to support myself. No one there would hire 16 year-olds as apprentices or into any other regular-paying job, so I became a homeless street person in Watts. With no food, no shelter, and no medical care, I almost starved to death. Sold my car and rifle, the only things I owned, to buy food. Lost 60 pounds in 6 months.

Finally, in desperation, I went to the local military recruiting office. Wanted to join the Air Force, but was in too poor physical condition to be accepted by ANY branch. So I literally begged the Army recruiter to take me, to save my life. He relented and I was on my way to Fort Ord. Then Ft. Lewis, Camp Gordon (now Fort Gordon), and military police school.

Ended up stationed in the Pacific Theatre, for three hitches. Was going to be a "lifer RA" and they were cutting orders for me to go to Ft. Rucker to learn to be a "chopper" driver, but instead I got air evac'd back stateside and spent 3 months in Tripler Army Hospital enroute and another 3 months in Letterman Army Hospital upon arrival back in CONUS...was medically disabled out (60% service-connected disability), so went back to San Jose. Still had a hell of a time finding a job. Nobody wanted a disabled vet. Did brief stints as an assistant manager (spelled "Jo-boy") in a paint store, drove a delivery route for a commercial linen supply company, and worked two years as a part time fork-lift driver, and full time fruit trying technician for Sunsweet.

Wanted to be a Sheriff's Deputy though, so took every qualifying exam of all the counties around the area. And, lo and behold, Sheriff John A. Luccetti hired me on my birthday as a Deputy in San Benito County.

Soon after starting work there, I was assigned to permanent Evening Shift duties. As I had nothing to do in the days and was living alone in a one-room apartment rented for $25 per month, I started as a full time day student at San Benito College, two blocks from my room. Got straight A's for two years, majoring in Economics. Then one of my professors talked me into applying for a scholarship to his alma mater, Stanford University in Palo Alto. So I did. Whaddya know, I received a full boat paid-in-cash scholarship for college...room, board, books, etc. So I quit my job as a Deputy and went to Stanford full time. Also still worked full time...first as a cop, then as a Captain (Deputy Chief) on the fire department. There at Stanford I met my first wife, an heiress to a fortune, of the large German timber company doing business in the U.S. under the name Weyr------.

We married, had two kids, and moved to Oregon, where we both also received degrees with GPAs above 3.8., She in the then-new field of Computer Science, and I in a dual major of public administration and pre-law, with completed minors in geology, paleontology, Chinese history, and English poetry. And I still continued to work at various jobs while at U of Oregon...was actually the foreman of the fire crew which fought what was up until then the largest forest fire in Oregon history...the Ox-Bow fire.

After graduation from Oregon, was offered a bunch of fine fellowships to other Universities...Yale, Colgate, M.I.T., Oklahoma, Texas, and a bunch of others. Chose Oklahoma for two reasons...after the 2 radically-oriented west coast universities, I wanted to go to one which was arch conservative to achieve a better-rounded formal education, and two, they offered me more cash money for being a student than three year-experienced professional iron ringers ( engineers) were earning for working full-time. Heck, at OU, I drove a brand new E-Jag as a grad-student with two kids and a wife pursuing more of her graduate studies as a full-time student!

My first job after I finally finished my formal degree-related education was as a civilian employee of the Navy Department at Keyport Naval Torpedo Station on Puget Sound. My second job was as the Asst. City Manager of a medium to fairly large size city in Oregon. I wrote City Ordinances, oversaw the Police and Fire Departments, and wrote all of the Mayor's speeches, handled all the city's press relationships, as well as prepared policy papers for City Council use.

Then I got recruited by the the Province of Alberta, Canada, taking on major projects for the Premier, Mr. E. Manning (and later, Premier Harry Strom). Projects included straightening out administration of a 1,100-bed psych hospital, examining and redoing provincial policy regards the employment and compensation of all appointed members of all provincial boards and commissions, re-writing the provincial pension act, establishing a new branch of government with 1,800 employees and becoming its' first Executive director, and setting up a mandatory binding arbitration system for all disciplined or fired provincial lawyers, doctors, CPAs, and other professionals, which genuinely safeguarded both the government's interests and the employees' interests. For two years I ran that arbitration system, and am happy to report that ALL cases were amicably settled between government and employees, with not a single one leading to ANY resulting lawsuits.

Taught Business Administration and Public Administration full time two years at the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology in Edmonton.


Then moved to the next Province over, where I was the Director of Personnel Services and Staff Training for the whole provincial government. After several years there, went back to Alberta to try out my skills in private industry, among other things writing the master manpower plan for building the Alaska Highway Gas Pipeline, and then becoming a Director of a privately owned (no publicly traded shares)consortium of 10 of Canada's largest companies, in the oil & gas, pipeline, heavy construction, engineering consulting, coal mining, electrical generation and transmission, and railway equipment designing and manufacturing industries, etc.

In 1982, moved back to the 'States.

Became the director of a Credit Union, an Employee Relations person for American Express, and the General Employment Manager for a major hospital chain.

Then, at age 52, I kissed the world of work goodbye because along the way I had always saved 1/3 of my monthly income every month and taught myself how to safely and productively invest the principal and yields. Didn't need more money or corporate politics. Retired to hunting, fishing, and building FAST road cars in Oregon...on a beautiful acreage with our own wells, barn, machine shop, riding arena, orchard, and pastures on Zane Grey's favorite salmon, trout, small mouth bass, and steelhead river, and also took up competitive cast bullet benchrest shooting.

The benchrest shooting was a "natural", as I had taken up competitive high power shooting when in Canada, and made the Canadian International Palma Team by the end of my second year. Shot in the New Zealand National Matches and the 1979 Palma Match at Trentham, Upper Hutt, NZ. Wrote a few articles from time to time...with some appearing in Rifle Magazine, the American Rifleman, Precision Shooting, and Shooter's News, among others. Never became a "staff writer" for any of them except Shooter's News, as I simply didn't have the time, and did not want to write about things assigned to me by someone else. Wrote only about my personal interests in the shooting sports, if and when I wanted to. Also was a licensed guide in Alberta. Was lucky enough to win the U.S. CBA Grand National Championship in 1997, and set a 10-shot group national record in '98 which still stands.

So this has been a long-winded story, but it describes a long beautiful life made possible by hard work and every kind of learning...books, work experience, thoughtful in-depth discussions with the pros on both theory and practical how-to's, and the occasional mentor.

I hope it wasn't too boring. And I apologize for all the typos...never got around to taking touch-typing in school.

Many Thanks for sharing that AC. I have for a long time maintained that anyone that says they have learned it all, really hasn't. I learn something new everyday. How or when that new knowledge will be useful for me, I cannot say but at least I have it. Really great post AC.

I find this a very interesting thread and while I had intended to respond more to the OP I have to take a moment to comment on Alberta Canucks posting. I think we should count ourselves lucky that there men of your generation and accomplishments that take the time to share their experiences and wisdom with us all through the internet. As I do not know you personally I would not have had the opportunity to learn your very inspiring story, had it not been for this forum. I will say, I was glued to the computer while reading and I would consider myself fortunate should I ever have the good fortune to meet you.

TWL, I have a foot in both camps that you talk about, being born and raised in the "blue blood" environment you speak of but leaving that world as a young adult with nothing but a back pack and making my way through adulthood in a decidedly different environment than I was raised in.

I was born into a relatively privileged environment in Europe, in a family that has placed a high value on academia for several centuries. While it was a comfortable childhood from a superficial point of view, it was also a highly dysfunctional environment and perhaps that, or my own slow pace of maturation contributed in keeping my grades below impressive levels.

It was not, however, a lack of IQ that kept them down. I took several IQ tests as a child, initially at the behest of a teacher who felt I should transfer to a school for gifted children. In retrospect, I regret refusing to do so because I did not want to leave my friends. I now find myself in my parents shoes, with a gifted child, and am determined that I will not let her make the same mistake.

Throughout my youth I squandered a lot of opportunities for education. I somehow felt that I did not need to try hard, or really even get good grades, because surely prospective employers would realize how much smarter I was than other applicants, just as my teachers always had.
I didn't have to wait longer than until applying for college to realize the folly of that reasoning! Apparently the Deans at Yale, Harvard and Princeton did not sense my genius through my application, and they weren't particularly impressed with my grades either...

Fortunately a decent SAT score got me in to a good private university nonetheless. Unfortunately, I had still not matured enough to learn my lesson, despite having also spent a year and a half in the military.

After completing my military service in my home country I packed a backpack and bought a one way ticket to the US, severing ties with my family for years to come. In hindsight, it was the best thing I have ever done. It took me a couple of years though, and a couple of colleges, and truthfully, meeting my wife, to grow up, pull my head out of my ass and decide who I wanted to be in life.
But of course by now I was too poor to finish college and not allowed to work without a green card and while eligible for one thanks to my wife, it took INS four years to issue it to me.

I started working under the table as a material handler, then apprentice electrician for my father in-law while waiting for my green card. Growing up, the concept of doing anything physical for a living was the farthest thing from my mind and would be extremely shameful to my family.
I gradually moved towards the office however. Not because I felt the field work was beneath me, I didn't and I don't, but because I was better suited for it. My saving grace has always been that I can learn anything and it turned out that I was pretty good at what I now was doing.

In the last fifteen years I have worked incredibly hard. For years I was the lowest paid employee in the company. But my skills and knowledge grew and the company with it. In the last decade or so I acquired financial security and the confidence that comes from knowing that you know what you're doing.

I have recently started my own business and we're off to a good start, although financially its tough on me personally as I have to finance everything and I'm the last to get paid. But I'm confident in the future and overwhelmed with the support offered and given by peers in the industry.

So while my path has been a winding one and I am certain it would have been easier had I committed myself more to my studies, I don't feel that my incomplete education has prevented me in any way from accomplishing what I have. Nor do I feel that I would be a better employer or leader had I finished my degree.

I think perhaps the difference between the "blue bloods" and the "others" you mention is the ingrained expectation to reach a certain professional level. It may be a boost or it may be a yoke. Which would depend on the person in question.

And that is what I believe it comes down to, the individual. I don't actually believe that those who came up "through the hawse pipe" (to use a nautical term) necessarily make better leaders than those who spent those years in school. And vice versa.

As to the balance between formal education and life experience. Two people of equal age, one educated and one not, will both have equal amounts of life experience. Just in different ways. I think the proper yardsticks for determining the suitability of a leader is his or her track record, reputation (it says a lot)and ability to mesh with whatever group or company he or she is considered for.

Besides the requisite specialized knowledge in whatever field we are talking about (and that can be acquired in different ways) the necessary skills of a leader are to motivate, lead and make sound decisions. Those skills will always come from the inside, I believe.

Thank you, Rick and AC, for taking the time to make such worthwhile contributions to this thread. I've learned something from your remarks.

Indeed, one's background can be either a "boost" or a "yoke". How one applies that background to the reality of life will determine one's individual success. Moreover, it is also a pretty good indicator of one's ability to lead others.

For those looking to select and promote tomorrow's leaders, the challenge is to find those who have learned that lesson.

Smart AND hard-working individuals will usually do well with or without college degrees. However, if you measure job success by earnings, then a degree in certain fields can lead to what most people would consider to be a spectacular level of pay the first year out of school.

For instance, petroleum engineers are in demand right now and starting at roughly $100,000 to $125,000 immediately out of school. In other words, they are basically earning the costs of a 4 year degree at a state school the first year out. A good rate of return.

A more concrete example, a friend of mine's son graduated last year from Texas A&M with a degree in construction management. He had interned the summer before graduation with a company in Houston. Upon graduation, his STARTING salary was $160,000 a year!

Even assuming his salary stays flat, he will have earned about a million dollars before many doctors earn anything but residency pay.

Of course, demand for both these type degrees rises and falls, but there are very few non-degreed individuals who make these levels of salaries, and, if they do, they usually have put many years into their fields to achieve them.

OTOH, some college degree's earning power can be summarized by memorizing, "Welcome to McDonald's....."

At the end of the day I'm always amazed at how much "chance" has to do with it. It doesn't matter much your level of formal education. Be in the right place at the right time. Have a mentor, or someone, recognize your ability and open a door for you. Where we end-up in life is almost totally what we do with the opportunity when it presents itself, or even whether we recognize the opportunity. The best example in my career was two Indian Nationals working for us off the west coast of India. Both were Roustabouts. We offered the most qualified one a promotion to Radio Operator. He said he wanted to be a Crane Operator. We didn't have an opening for a CO. He turned down the RO job. I promoted the second most qualified man. He did a great job, and later we needed a Safety Training Coordinator. We offered the job to that RO. Long story short. Within five years, the man that stepped-up when the opportunity arose went from making $1,500 a month in Indian waters, paying taxes; to $8,000 a month in Australian waters with the company paying his foreign taxes. Years later, the man that had the chance first at the RO job finally moved up to RO and was making $2,500 a month, in India, but out of work about three months a year.

We've probably all known trash who at one time or another were able to move up the food chain despite being complete losers. We marvel how that happens. Most of the time it was luck. He was somebody's good buddy, college roommate, brother-in-law, or just an excellent brown-noser. I asked an exec early in my career about one loser who had been with the company about 25 years. I was amazed when he told me, "I didn't hire him, and I'm not going to fire him". That's a pretty cowardly way of being a manager. I figured they paid me to find the dead wood, and get rid of it. That is what is so democratic about the drilling business. I don't recall ever focusing too much on the level of formal education, whether I was hiring, or firing. What mattered was what the individual did after being given an opportunity.

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At the end of the day I'm always amazed at how much "chance" has to do with it.

Kinda like the old saying "the harder I practice the luckier I get".

Chance does have a lot to do with it, but so does attitude, hardwork and willingness to accept responsibility. Not items readily found amounst the youth of today.

Education in itself means nothing! At all.

Education is not in itself a means to an end. All the education in the world means nothing without a good attitude, hardwork and willingness to accept responsibility.

I would much rather hire an employee without an education than an over educated lazy dodger type.

I am late arriving to this thread but have enjoyed reading the great success all of you have had.

I am 42 years old so possibly, I have several more years of work.

I spent several years working full time at a manufacturing plant while attendeding school part time. Finally, I graduated with a 2 year Associate Degree in Drafting. I am glad I did it, but in no way do I think it replaces hard work.

As I worked full time, I often felt like I was treading water. Both my wife and I worked opposite shifts in order to buy a house and pay for college.

Ultimately, after I graduated, I worked as a Draftsman/Mechanical Designer. I was then offered a teaching position at a Tech School which I accepted. While teaching, I started a Drafting business 6 years ago. We are growing and and now have 16 employees. I can attribute any successes that I have had to 90% hard work, and 10% college education.

When I review resumes, I am interested in actual work history and longevity at past jobs. This is the first thing I look at. I am amazed that a person can hold 20 jobs in the past 18 years. These resumes are quickly discarded.

Chance does have a lot to do with it but, one must seize the opportunity when it comes calling. If we pause and hesitate too long, it will quickly pass us by.

Canuck: I admire the fact that you saved 1/3 of your income. Saving is something I need to improve on. My grandparents and their generation were excellent examples of saving their income!

quote:

I am amazed that a person can hold 20 jobs in the past 18 years. These resumes are quickly discarded.

Me too. Those people have jobs......I am interested in those looking for CARREERS!

Hard to find those types today......


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Material success is a wonderful thing, but I admire people who do something they love, and get up each day eager to go to work.

When I got out of high school, ready to go to college I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do for with my life. For quite a few years I wanted to fly F-4s in Vietnam, but my eyes wouldn't cooperate. They tried, based on my tests, to tell me I should point towards navigator in B-52s. It didn't have the same allure.

I was working one day for a friend of my father and he asked me what I wanted to be. When I told him I didn't know, he said why not an engineer. I told him "OK". He was the Dean of Mechanical Engineering.

Basically, I just wanted to be as successful as my dad. He was making $11,000 a year in education, business administration. My honest-to-God goal was to make $10,000 a year. Sounds laughable now. Five years later I graduated, my dad had died a few years earlier, and my first salary out of college in 1970 was $750 a month ($9,000 a year), I thought I was almost to my goal. Thank God I got a little brighter along the way. That's one of the things that life experience will do for you.

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Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Smart AND hard-working individuals will usually do well with or without college degrees. However, if you measure job success by earnings, then a degree in certain fields can lead to what most people would consider to be a spectacular level of pay the first year out of school.

For instance, petroleum engineers are in demand right now and starting at roughly $100,000 to $125,000 immediately out of school. In other words, they are basically earning the costs of a 4 year degree at a state school the first year out. A good rate of return.

A more concrete example, a friend of mine's son graduated last year from Texas A&M with a degree in construction management. He had interned the summer before graduation with a company in Houston. Upon graduation, his STARTING salary was $160,000 a year!

Even assuming his salary stays flat, he will have earned about a million dollars before many doctors earn anything but residency pay.

Of course, demand for both these type degrees rises and falls, but there are very few non-degreed individuals who make these levels of salaries, and, if they do, they usually have put many years into their fields to achieve them.

OTOH, some college degree's earning power can be summarized by memorizing, "Welcome to McDonald's....."

Well put Gato...and in my days in the energy industry, good petroleum geologists could earn even more. Although a good man working his butt off on a drill rig (for instance) could do okay as long as rigs were busy or he didn't get killed or maimed on the job, he could do a hell of a lot better by having squeaked his financial way through college and gotten a degree in either petroleum eengineering or petroleum geology.

I know more than a few roughnecks who did exactly that, and ended up owning significant farm-ins into small oil fields producing hundreds or thousands of barrels per day, 7 days a week, for 20 or more years. At $100 a barrel for oil, that comes to more than enough money to buy a bunch of Mickey-D franchises....

[I don't know about today, but in my day a petro geologist, a "land man", and a "money man" would often form their own little oil and gas company, sharing ownership split evenly between the three...or 33% each. They would diminish their total holding by giving very small percentages to drilling companies, pipe suppliers, etc., to drill their holes for them Those %s were known as "farm-outs". A surprising number of those holes drilled were NOT "dry" holes, and they became very, very wealthy men as they each still held 20% or more of the company ownership in their individual names.]

The "money man, of course was not a guy with money, but a guy who negotiates all the "farm-outs". Talking drill companies and others into drilling where they only get paid if you get a producing hole, is an art and skill all in itself. The land man obtains access to the land in order to drill it...either through negotiated royalty payments if on government land, or for negotiated small amounts of cash & royalties on private land. He would also get all the previous exploration logs if any were available for the land in question.)

For several years I passed through the main hall of one of the university (Higher Education ) . The walls there were hung with marble tops , which were stamped with gold names of alumni who graduated from this university with honors. One of them I knew . He was classmate of the current rector - whose name was not on the wall.
No one honors graduate will be neither leading university administrator , or a great scientist. University education does not produce geniuses and heroes.
As we (teachers ) joked: " The Academy does not teach fools - it improves them ." However, on average - higher education is useful, although talented people can replace it with self-education.

Yes, it's a big problem. Higher education provides a good start: the graduate may qualify for a good job. So here's the problem , what is better for society - to fill the universities by those guys whose parents are able to pay for school , or just smart guys? After all, the quality of the educated class is the future of the nation.

I don't know whether you would call it chance or merely being in the right place at the right time but My entire adult life was spent in a field I had no formal training for. I went to gunsmith school and have never worked as a gunsmith and I received a BS afterwards but never worked in the field of the BS. I worked in computers from second generation mainframes to PC's. When I went to college they probably had a computer on campus but I never saw it. I entered the field by more or less accident, found I had a skill I had not known and a field I really enjoyed so I stayed in it till retirement. However had I not had the BS I would have never been afforded the initial entry.

The creator of Dilbert says stay in the game until luck finds you. I think there is a lot of truth in that. You can't give up no matter how frustrating life gets. Use your education or your experience to make your boss's life easier, and in most cases he's going to reward you in some way.

that.http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/dilbert-creator-proof-failure-lead-success-140844902.html

I think whether you have a college education or not, you have a limited window to find yourself. By the age of 55 you better have made your mark because my experience has been that from around 55 to retirement there are a lot of companies that will hire a younger person willing to work for less rather than taking a chance on someone that is long in the tooth, and have to pay them for their expertise.

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The creator of Dilbert says stay in the game until luck finds you. I think there is a lot of truth in that. You can't give up no matter how frustrating life gets. Use your education or your experience to make your boss's life easier, and in most cases he's going to reward you in some way.

I like it! It's what I did.


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