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German gun designer’s quest for a smarter weapon infuriates U.S. gun rights advocates
By Michael S. Rosenwald August 6 at 8:27 PM

UNTERFÖHRING, Germany — In nearly 30 years at Heckler & Koch, a legendary German gunmaker, Ernst Mauch designed some of the world’s most lethal weapons, including the one that reportedly killed Osama bin Laden. A state regulator once called him a “rock star” in the industry.

Now the gun world sees him a different way: as a traitor. The target of their fury is the smart gun Mauch designed at Armatix, a start-up near Munich. The very concept of the weapon has been attacked by U.S. gun rights advocates even as it has helped Mauch resolve a sense of guilt that has haunted him his entire career. He knows children have killed each other with his guns. Crimes have been committed with them.

“It hurts my heart,” the 58-year-old gun designer said. “It’s life. It’s the lives of people who never thought they’d get killed by a gun. You have a nice family at home, and then you get killed. It’s crazy.”

Mauch’s solution, the iP1, can be personalized so it only fires if the gun’s rightful owner is wearing a special watch connected wirelessly to the weapon. It has not been the hit he imagined for the multibillion-dollar U.S. market. Second Amendment advocates, fearing the technology will be mandated, launched angry protests this year against stores in Maryland and California that tried to sell it. The industry that once revered him now looks at him with suspicion.

“I love Ernst, and his contributions to firearms are incredible,” said Jim Schatz, a gun industry consultant who worked for Mauch at Heckler & Koch. “But he doesn’t understand that the anti-gunners will use this to infringe on a constitutional right. They don’t have a Second Amendment in Germany.”

Mauch realizes that many people in the gun world oppose what he’s doing. But he sees himself as a Steve Jobs-like figure, someone with the know-how and stubbornness — “no compromises” is a phrase he uses repeatedly — to bring “dumb guns,” as he calls them, into the digital age.

“This is the beginning of a new generation of weapons, which makes people think I am crazy,” he said. “Anyone can make a gun or a pistol. But if the potential is here to make it safer, we have to do it. We absolutely must.”


Mauch grew up a farmer’s son in Dunningen, a small village at the edge of Germany’s Black Forest, where he still lives today, raising bees and growing wheat. He tinkered. He fixed things. As a teenager, he took up watchmaking. He loved the intricate parts, the sequence of small movements that led to time.

In college, he studied mechanical engineering, and two of his required internships were at Heckler & Koch. He immediately took to the preciseness of the work, impressing his superiors with a design for an antitank weapon site system. The idea of spending a lifetime in weapons did not occur to him.

“At the time, I did not think,” he said. “I just learned.”

The company asked Mauch to return after his graduation in 1978. He quickly rose up the corporate ladder, earning a reputation for designing inventive weapons systems and cracking complicated problems, often walking down to assembly lines to examine issues and offer solutions.

Mauch’s assault rifles and grenade launchers become coveted by armed forces­ around the world, including the United States. He was the first foreign-born winner of the Chinn Award, an annual prize from the National Defense Industrial Association honoring achievement in small-arms weaponry. He still consults regularly with the U.S. Army Research Laboratory.

“He understood where the end-user was coming from and how to meet those needs on the engineering side,” said Larry Vickers, a former Delta Force member who collaborated on weapons projects with Mauch. “He had a grasp on the issues that was very unique and remains so this day.”

One of the weapons they worked on together was the HK416, a powerful assault rifle with a special gas system that took on the M4 Carbine in the early 1990s. The rifle is used by U.S. special forces, and it was apparently the weapon of choice for the SEAL Team 6 members who killed bin Laden in a covert raid in Pakistan in 2011.

“I was happy for your soldiers that they could do this without getting injured,” Mauch said. “I don’t think about this a lot, though. I really have no feelings about this.”

But Mauch is not a gun designer without a conscience. Early in his career, working on a new sniper rifle, he lay awake one night thinking, “What are you doing? Is it right to develop these kinds of products?” His life, he knew, was being defined by killing, a career at odds with his deep faith in God.

He found a justification in his head: This rifle will one day be used by a sniper trying to kill a kidnapper holding a child in his arms. “This weapon must do its job,” Mauch said. He has found comfort in that rationale throughout his career. He thinks God is on his side.

“My best partner is our Lord,” he said. “More or less, I think He is supporting my life.” The proof: “I am still alive, and He has blessed me with a beautiful wife and family.”


Mauch came home to that family one day in the 1990s following four hours of questioning by authorities after a boy accidentally killed a friend with one of Heckler & Koch’s handguns. “Why did the boy not know the gun was loaded?” Mauch was asked. “Why did the boy not know there was a round in the chamber?”

He told his wife, “My dear, I will never forget these last four hours.”

The questions, Mauch said, were good ones. “It was a good gun,” he said. “A good gun, but a dumb gun.” The idea of making guns smarter took hold.

Several years later, while running Heckler & Koch, Mauch awarded a research and development contract to a German electrical lock company interested in smart-gun technology. But in 2005, Mauch left Heckler & Koch in a dispute with the investment firms behind the company, a painful moment in his life.

Mauch said he received lucrative job offers from many of his competitors, but he wanted to pursue smart guns. His wife told him: “Now you have to do this other mission. This is why you aren’t at H&K anymore. You have to make guns safer.”

In 2006, Mauch joined Armatix, a spin out from the lock firm, investing his own money and leading the development of the .22-caliber iP1, targeted specifically for the U.S. market, where interest in the technology has increased in recent years. He recruited electrical engineers, gunsmiths and a few old contacts in the industry who didn’t think he was certifiable.

“I wanted to make sure that smart guns are the next generation of weapons,” Mauch said.


The question that torments him now: Does anyone agree?

In Mauch’s office, hanging on a wall by his desk, there is an article from a German newspaper with a headline that translates to “Fire among friends.” The story is about Andy Raymond, the owner of Engage Armament, a Rockville, Md., gun store, who faced death threats from gun rights activists after announcing plans to carry the iP1.

The National Rifle Association and other gun groups fiercely oppose smart guns, in part because of a New Jersey law mandating that all firearms sold in the state be smart guns within three years of such weapons being sold in the United States. Mauch said that he does not support the law, that the market should decide, but he’s puzzled that gun advocates are opposed to more guns, especially safer ones.

“I would ask them to give us a chance to tell them about the potential for a modern gun,” Mauch said. “I don’t know why they are scared of this.”

He is not anti-gun, he wants them to know. Told that there were more than 300 million guns in the United States, Mauch smiled and said, “I like that.”

The smart gun adds parts that Mauch never used in the past: batteries, wires, capacitors and microchips, all scattered on a desk near his office. “You would never see these things,” he said, looking at the electronics.

Gun rights advocates have raised questions about the reliability of any smart gun, noting that smartphones often need to be rebooted. Mauch said they should look at who made the weapon. The man who made the HK416. The man who has spent his adult life making guns with the mantra, “No compromises.”


His contacts at the Army Research Laboratory back him up. “He has come up with a design that’s reliable, it provides safety, and it provides security,” said Sam Wansack, a lab engineer at Aberdeen Proving Ground. “I can’t think of a way of defeating it without destroying the gun.”

Gun safety groups think Mauch’s acclaimed career can convince skeptics.

The Metro Industrial Areas Foundation, a group pushing manufacturers for better gun safety, recently met with Mauch in Germany and hope to bring him to the United States to persuade police chiefs to buy his company’s guns. The idea: If the technology is good enough for police officers, it should be good enough for consumers. Armatix is developing a 9mm smart gun targeted at the law enforcement market. The company hopes to offer other controls besides a watch, including a version that responds to voices.

“The idea of a smart-gun maker who has lots of experience making guns is intriguing because he’s not just some fly-by-night guy trying to do this,” said Rabbi Joel Mosbacher, a member of the group that met with Mauch. “Law enforcement officials have been quietly saying that if he comes over, they’d be willing to meet with him.”

Mauch hopes to meet with U.S. police officials in September. Under no circumstances, he said, will he back away from the technology, even though he acknowledges the backlash has sometimes led him to ponder quitting. “You are responsible for all the lives you could save,” his wife tells him.

“That motivates me back,” he said. “When it comes to the end, you are responsible for what you did. There will be one question asked of you: What did you do to help others? I cannot sit still. There are tragedies that could be eliminated. Bingo. End of story.”


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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I would buy one of these smart guns. I have 60 guns and they are always uploaded. I don't store ammunition and guns together in the same room.

I would like to have a gun for home defense that i don't have to ever worry about somebody accidentally shooting themselves with.

I would pay a premium to buy this gun.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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I like the idea of having one, am suspicious of electronics and software in that application.


TomP

Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.

Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)
 
Posts: 14711 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
I would like to have a gun for home defense that i don't have to ever worry about somebody accidentally shooting themselves with


The technology of these are far from perfect yet. any thing that used batteries is not something I want in a life and death situation.

Like you I also own may firearms most are store in safes. My personally protection arms are store loaded and ready.

Some night after trying to wake up out of a deep sleep try and find the gun ammo load it in the dark when some nut case is trying to kill you.

Just to see how long it takes you.

If these come commercially viable so be it I am all for people buying what they want.

I totally opposed to things being government mandated.

That is about the only way a more complicated piece of equipment well sell over one that does the same job cheaper and just as well.
 
Posts: 19696 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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They've had a ring that operated in a similar way .What happened to it ? It just faded away.Not a very practical idea.
 
Posts: 7636 | Registered: 10 October 2002Reply With Quote
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And how many of us wear our watch or ring all night? Not me, that's for sure. So now, in addition to finding my gun when I am groggy from sleep, he wants me to also have to find and put on my watch too?

Further more, surely no one believes that a gun which is enabled by micro-technology can't be disabled by similar technology. I mean, heck, micro-technology can now steal the info on your credit card strip while the card is still in your wallet. And Geostar can unlock my pickup from wherever they are. So why couldn't a bad guy have a device which will both enable or disable your smart gun, at his discretion? (Where there is a market there will be an inventor/entrepreneur selling whatever people are willing to pay for. And if bad guys have such devices, governments will most assuredly have them so THEY can control all the guns..

And at a much simpler level, what happens when three neighborhood punks invade your house while you are in the bathtub or not at home, and see your very attractive nubile daughter? Can she operate your smart gun? How? That would require multiple watches or rings so every family member could have one, wouldn't it?

Perhaps a well-intentioned thought by Mr. Mauch, but one imbedded in business thought, not necessarily the real world.
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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I'll second that , AC.


Doug Wilhelmi
NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 7503 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 15 October 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
And how many of us wear our watch or ring all night?


I do and I'm sure many others do too.

The idea and system is certainly not perfect YET but I would suspect that it would save multiple more kids lives than it would cause to be lost because of a disabled gun.

I'm not in any way suggesting it be mandated, I am suggesting that some people who have both pistols for protection and young children at home might save lives by using it.

It seems hardly a day goes by that I don't hear on the local news about a child being shot by another child using a "found" gun. Certainly many of these could have been prevented by education, etc but the fact remains they were not and there are way too many dead children killed by guns.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
The technology of these are far from perfect yet. any thing that used batteries is not something I want in a life and death situation.


How do you know how "perfect" the technology is? The designer certainly has solid credentials and I would suspect the reviewer at the Army Research Lab is not unfamiliar with firearms.

What battery powered device do you use everyday that is often critical to saving your or other's lives????? Try a car or truck.

What battery powered device do many people use CONSTANTLY that is absolutely critical to maintaining their lives????? A pacemaker.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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Would anyone continue to own a firearm for protection or hunting if there was a fatal accident in that person's residence with a firearm? If a child was accidentally killed with a loaded gun?

I don't know why we should be so afraid of technology to create safer guns. I already have 60 plus going to 100 plus - dumb guns. I do everything to make sure my guns are safe and secure. Theft fire damage are least of my concerns - a misuse or accidental use of my firearm causing injury or death is my biggest fear.

I do everything to try and separate my guns from ammo - keep them in two different locked rooms.

I would trade off 100% percent dependability from a dumb gun for 95% dependable smart gun giving me significantly more safety from accidental discharge.

I have an alarm system, a 90 pound german shepherd (he looks scary but he is like a big lab), live in a gated community. Those are security layers in addition to a gun.


I am not saying the state should mandate every gun be a smart gun or anything. I am just saying as a consumer I would spend my dollars to get a safe technologically advance gun for my personal use. I am pretty sure there are many other people like me. Maybe a company like google steps into this political minefield. But I just think too many kids are killed each year by accidental gun use.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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What battery powered device do you use everyday that is often critical to saving your or other's lives????? Try a car or truck.


And they all have fail one time or another. I just had to replace a trk battery after only 10 months. I carry jumper cables in all my vehicles

Batteries fail all the time and need replacement.

Just a couple of weeks ago on a week long wilderness trip my tripping partners watch battery failed no replacement for who knows all far.
 
Posts: 19696 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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It seems hardly a day goes by that I don't hear on the local news about a child being shot by another child using a "found" gun.


That's because it is media driven campaign to make you think it is happening all the time.

Buckets, swimming pools and vehicles are far more dangerous to the children in your life.

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2...ren-five-gallon.html

Which are more dangerous for young children, five gallon buckets or guns?

Five gallon buckets result in a small number of fatal accidents for young children; about 27 a year. The accidents are not tracked as rigorously as those with firearms are. I found a study that tracked them for six years. From a pediatrics study:

Analysis of Consumer Product Safety Commission data revealed 160 bucket-related drownings for the years 1984 through 1989, representing a mortality rate of 0.367 per 100 000 persons (younger than 2 years old) per year in the United States.
I have not found numbers for bucket drownings for later years, but the total drownings have dropped slightly from 1990 to 2005-2009. In 1990 there were 3,979 total drownings. In 2005-2009 the average was 3,533. In 2011 there were 3,556. From 1990, the total number has dropped about 11 percent.

Drownings of children under five were fairly consistent from 1999 to 2010, so it seems reasonable to believe that drowning in buckets have dropped about as much as the general figures. That would put five gallon bucket drownings at .89 x 27, or 24 per year. The number is small enough that no one seems to track exactly how many child drownings occur with five gallon buckets. It is a rare event, but it happens.



Unintentional Drownings of boys and girls 1-4, compared to motor vehicle traffic.
Bucket drownings are a small fraction of these numbers.


The number of children under the age of five that die in gun accidents is tracked more rigorously. This is in part because gun accidents are tracked as a separate number, and part because bucket drownings are counted as part of total drownings. The latest number of fatal firearms accidents per year for children under the age of five was 19, recorded in 2007. Again, this is a very rare event. So while both firearms and five gallon buckets are involved in fatal accidents for young children, and the numbers are tiny, five gallon buckets seem to be more likely to be involved in a fatal accident.

To be fair, both numbers are so small as to be statistically insignificant. In a country of over 300 million people, these fall into the "noise" category. That does not help if it is your child that is injured or dies. In nearly all of these cases, it is adults who made the bad decisions. The vast majority of the children drowned in buckets were left unattended; the vast majority of the young children killed in firearms accidents were shot by an adult firing the gun.

In comparison, for 2007, all fatal firearm accidents for children 0-14 totaled 65, and all drownings for children 0-14 totaled 739. Fatal firearm accidents for children 1-14 have been fairly flat since 2001, averaging 61 per year.

Drownings account for over 11 times as many accidental deaths as firearms do for children 14 and under.

Swimming pools, considered by themselves, are six times as likely as firearms to be involved in a fatal accident for children under the age of 15. There are 30 times as many guns in the United States as there are swimming pools.

Update: I found numbers from John Lott showing the number of children under 10 who shot themselves or another accidentaly from 1995 to 1999 varied from 5 to 9 per year. From an archived article:


Data I have collected show that accidental shooters over-whelmingly are adults with long histories of arrests for violent crimes, alcoholism, suspended or revoked drivers licenses, and involvement in car crashes. Meanwhile, the annual number of accidental gun deaths involving children under ten — most of these being cases where someone older shoots the child — is consistently a single digit number. It is a kind of media archetype story, to report on "naturally curious" children shooting themselves or other children — though from 1995 to 1999 the entire United States saw only between five and nine cases a year where a child under ten either accidentally shot themselves or another child.

©2014 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included. Link to Gun Watch


Posted by Dean Weingarten at 7/18/2014 04:46:00 AM No comments: Links to this post
 
Posts: 19696 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
quote:
It seems hardly a day goes by that I don't hear on the local news about a child being shot by another child using a "found" gun.


That's because it is media driven campaign to make you think it is happening all the time.

Buckets, swimming pools and vehicles are far more dangerous to the children in your life.

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2...ren-five-gallon.html

Which are more dangerous for young children, five gallon buckets or guns?

Five gallon buckets result in a small number of fatal accidents for young children; about 27 a year. The accidents are not tracked as rigorously as those with firearms are. I found a study that tracked them for six years. From a pediatrics study:

Analysis of Consumer Product Safety Commission data revealed 160 bucket-related drownings for the years 1984 through 1989, representing a mortality rate of 0.367 per 100 000 persons (younger than 2 years old) per year in the United States.
I have not found numbers for bucket drownings for later years, but the total drownings have dropped slightly from 1990 to 2005-2009. In 1990 there were 3,979 total drownings. In 2005-2009 the average was 3,533. In 2011 there were 3,556. From 1990, the total number has dropped about 11 percent.

Drownings of children under five were fairly consistent from 1999 to 2010, so it seems reasonable to believe that drowning in buckets have dropped about as much as the general figures. That would put five gallon bucket drownings at .89 x 27, or 24 per year. The number is small enough that no one seems to track exactly how many child drownings occur with five gallon buckets. It is a rare event, but it happens.



Unintentional Drownings of boys and girls 1-4, compared to motor vehicle traffic.
Bucket drownings are a small fraction of these numbers.


The number of children under the age of five that die in gun accidents is tracked more rigorously. This is in part because gun accidents are tracked as a separate number, and part because bucket drownings are counted as part of total drownings. The latest number of fatal firearms accidents per year for children under the age of five was 19, recorded in 2007. Again, this is a very rare event. So while both firearms and five gallon buckets are involved in fatal accidents for young children, and the numbers are tiny, five gallon buckets seem to be more likely to be involved in a fatal accident.

To be fair, both numbers are so small as to be statistically insignificant. In a country of over 300 million people, these fall into the "noise" category. That does not help if it is your child that is injured or dies. In nearly all of these cases, it is adults who made the bad decisions. The vast majority of the children drowned in buckets were left unattended; the vast majority of the young children killed in firearms accidents were shot by an adult firing the gun.

In comparison, for 2007, all fatal firearm accidents for children 0-14 totaled 65, and all drownings for children 0-14 totaled 739. Fatal firearm accidents for children 1-14 have been fairly flat since 2001, averaging 61 per year.

Drownings account for over 11 times as many accidental deaths as firearms do for children 14 and under.

Swimming pools, considered by themselves, are six times as likely as firearms to be involved in a fatal accident for children under the age of 15. There are 30 times as many guns in the United States as there are swimming pools.

Update: I found numbers from John Lott showing the number of children under 10 who shot themselves or another accidentaly from 1995 to 1999 varied from 5 to 9 per year. From an archived article:


Data I have collected show that accidental shooters over-whelmingly are adults with long histories of arrests for violent crimes, alcoholism, suspended or revoked drivers licenses, and involvement in car crashes. Meanwhile, the annual number of accidental gun deaths involving children under ten — most of these being cases where someone older shoots the child — is consistently a single digit number. It is a kind of media archetype story, to report on "naturally curious" children shooting themselves or other children — though from 1995 to 1999 the entire United States saw only between five and nine cases a year where a child under ten either accidentally shot themselves or another child.

©2014 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included. Link to Gun Watch


Posted by Dean Weingarten at 7/18/2014 04:46:00 AM No comments: Links to this post


p dog shooter

This is just bad data - for buckets the article is extrapolating numbers when they don't have real numbers. I am just not for comparing real facts with assumed facts/numbers.

If someone designed a better warning system for a pool I would buy it just as I would buy a safe gun.

I have a pool that a lot of people come and use. The pool is in an mesh enclosure that has door than cannot be open by anyone under 4 feet. No kids allowed without an adult in the pool.

The issue with guns in the house is its tough to keep an eye on 10 kids when they come in your house. The fear is one of kids finds the loaded gun. A smart gun eliminates that risk.

All I am looking for is technology to step in. The original post by Gato shows I am not the only one. I don't know why someone should get a death threat for making or selling a smarter safer gun.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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A safe gun is any gun in the hands of a person trained to handle it safely.
I don't want a gun that other household members can't use because I am out of the house. It does no good to have a "safe" gun that can only be used under the right circumstances. My 12 gauge pump is always loaded and easy to get at for anyone in the house. There are loaded guns in every room so that at any time we might need one it is available. No matter what the advertising might say there is no such thing as a "safe" gun. Operators are safe - not the item they operate. Spend your money on training instead of gun that might fail at any time for any number of reasons.


Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page.
 
Posts: 639 | Location: SE WA.  | Registered: 05 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Gato - You and I agree on most things, but I do not see the proposed "safe gun" technology as making things safer overall.

I see no one responded to or even acknowledged my comment about micro technology being developed (and available CHEAP)to override the safe gun micro-technology any "safe gun" would rely on.

To me that's important for a couple of reasons. One, if some criminally-intended person was in one's home uninvited, it would nmake it possible for the intruder to make their gun unusable even by the homeowner, no matter what he wore or didn't. Two, if they stole onis gun at anytime, it would make it possible for he thief to still use it to threaten or commit felony assault on others. No safety gain in either of those circumstances.

The only gain is in the odds of a child gaining access to one's gun but not one's watch or ring., in which case it would be less likely to harm the child or another person during that period until it was put down or taken away from the child.

That brings me to this question...

Which do you think is more likely, that one may need the weapon for home o personal defense, or that a child will get hold of it and accidentally fire it? In my house my defense gun is kept under my pillow at night when I have my head on the pillow. During the day if I am not at home it is kept in a small portable biometrically locked safe...which is spring loaded to open in response only to my fingerprint. I touch it with my finger and it pops open silently to present a fully loaded handgun to me. Since it can be taught by me to recognize 5 other fingerprints as well, I can teach it to recognize the print of anyone else who I want to have access to it.

Someday no doubt technology will be made available to over-ride it too, but none of my kids or visitor's kids are likely to have that technology with them, so safety has been increased to the degree I am willing to risk.

(And when the battery gets low, a light warns me that I need to replace it when it still has a couple of days life sufficient to operate it, and I check that light every evening when I lock up for the night.) And if it DOES fail, I have a fallback key on the key ring with my car & house keys. When I am gone, it goes with me. As I live far enough out in the AZ boonies, I don't walk anywhere without my keys.

Nothing is foolproof, but I far prefer that to a "safe gun".


My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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Not saying the threats came from NJ. But when a smart gun comes available thats all a new jersey resident will be able to buy. Not sure which elected genius came up with this one. So that makes most new jersey gun owners dislike them.
 
Posts: 1301 | Location: N.J | Registered: 16 October 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
I see no one responded to or even acknowledged my comment about micro technology being developed (and available CHEAP)to override the safe gun micro-technology any "safe gun" would rely on.

To me that's important for a couple of reasons. One, if some criminally-intended person was in one's home uninvited, it would nmake it possible for the intruder to make their gun unusable even by the homeowner, no matter what he wore or didn't. Two, if they stole onis gun at anytime, it would make it possible for he thief to still use it to threaten or commit felony assault on others. No safety gain in either of those circumstances.


How many cases can you cite of the supposed wonder microtechnology stealing credit card numbers from someone's wallet?

Assuming that it would be illegal to carry such technology IF it was developed and existed, just like burglar tools, then how many of these do you think would actually be out there?

How would the burglar/robber have any idea whether there was a "safe" gun in the house and whether that would be the only gun accessible?

Finally my wife's car is "electronic" keys, etc. To have it work, you have to be quite close. How would the bad guy with his wonderous microtechnology device that would have to fit in a pocket or similar, get that close without being shot?

quote:
Which do you think is more likely, that one may need the weapon for home o personal defense, or that a child will get hold of it and accidentally fire it?


Obviously for defense, but you seem to say the "safe" gun would not be suitable for defense, which is obviously wrong.

In short, if you don't like it, don't buy one.

But your position seems to be that you would deny anyone the right to others to buy a safe guns and quite likely save a few childrens lives a year. Personally, at this point, even assuming they worked perfectly, etc etc I would not buy one because my kids are grown or near-grown, we live in a rural area with almost zero chance of a young child entering our house while we are not there so the usefulness of the "smart" feature would not really help my situation. OTOH urban parents, who might not educate their kids to gun safety as well as they should, or have other kids who might never have seen a gun in the house, etc could find them very worthwhile.

The kids who are getting killed by "found" guns are finding guns that are not biometrically locked up, obviously, so while that is a good item if you want your gun in a box, it hasn't seemed to reduce the death of kids by unintended shooting which holds steady at about 60 odd a year (0-14), a number which doesn't consider the injured but not dead.

If it was so useless police departments wouldn't be considering it, and the number of deaths by policeman a year by their own guns in the hands of others is nearly zero (but we had it happen in our area less than a year ago), but guns stolen from policeman is somewhat higher.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:

Personally, at this point, even assuming they worked perfectly, etc etc I would not buy one because my kids are grown or near-grown, we live in a rural area with almost zero chance of a young child entering our house while we are not there so the usefulness of the "smart" feature would not really help my situation. OTOH urban parents, who might not educate their kids to gun safety as well as they should, or have other kids who might never have seen a gun in the house, etc could find them very worthwhile.


I am the opposite. I have a boat load of other peoples kids who come in the house. Use the pool in the summer, bbq, family and social events.

These are kids whose parents don't own guns and have no information about gun safety.

I worry about boys between 4-10 - they are always getting stuff. They go places dig into personal stuff - basically explore other peoples property.

My biggest fear is one of these kids getting a loaded gun. Why I separate guns and ammo - keep both under lock and key ect.

A safe gun would give me piece of mind.

Also a activation device similar to a fitbit would be great - can wear it and sleep.

I just dont see a reason why all this personal computing technology cannot be applied to guns.

60 kids getting killed a year is pathetic and Florida has laws that make it a pretty serious offense to leave a loaded gun lying around. A technology to mitigate this number would be great.

Also look at number of guns confiscated at airports - that is a clear sign there are just a lot of guns lying around.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Gato - If you don't know technology already exists to read credit card strips, and is used by criminals, you need to do your own research. Personally, I can't believe you even said that.

Usually the thefts occur in supermarkets where darned near everyone in line has a credit card (or 4 or 5) in their pocket or purse. I think rather than ask me, you should ask some friend who works on fraud and/or identity theft cases at your local PD. As many of those stolen credit card numbers are sold internationally, the FBI cyber-crime unit also works on them.

It is the same kind of goodie that is also pretty commonly used to steal credit card numbers at gas stations, only there the crooks usually hide it on or in the gas pump housing, rather than carry it on them.

A crook wouldn't need to know whether you had a safe gun in the house. Any crook with a shred of brains would own one of those devices as soon as it became inexpensively available. It would make the homeowner's gun gun a "safe gun" for HIM. They already break into houses where they don't know if the owner has a gun or not.

In gangs (members of which commit a lot of the home invasion assaults and robberies, at least one member would become aware of its existence and they could buy one collectively for which ever members) wished to use it on any given day.

As the kid who put it together wouldn't in all likelihood be charging for writing the code and small electronic hardware is cheap, I'll bet one could be put together for $20 or less. Even sold on rhe street as an "under ground black-market" tool, I'll be they wouldn't be $100.


And the same kind of young brainiacs who now spend their technological genius hacking into large corporate databases to steal personal and credit card information there, will have that smart gun problem solved in no time, if such guns ever become common enough to be worth the mental challenge.

The one who does "crack the code" and write counter code probably not even be a crook. He will just be having fun with the challenge and then b bragging to his acquaintances about what he has done.

If someone wants a truly safe gun, they need to take the steps necessary to keep others (including their kids)from getting to them. A portable biometric handgun safe is only about $250-300 depending on the brand....some are even cheaper, but I never recommend cheap stuff sold by bottom-line-oriented corporations.


My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
quote:
What battery powered device do you use everyday that is often critical to saving your or other's lives????? Try a car or truck.


And they all have fail one time or another. I just had to replace a trk battery after only 10 months. I carry jumper cables in all my vehicles

Batteries fail all the time and need replacement.

Just a couple of weeks ago on a week long wilderness trip my tripping partners watch battery failed no replacement for who knows all far.


To add this... pacemakers have a life span generally considered to be no more than 3-to-5 years. Then they or their batteries have to be replaced. Almost every professional in medicine knows that. Pacemaker manufacturers don't advertise THAT aspect of them, for their own reasons.

\Pacemakers are surgically placed under the skin in an "out-patient" surgical procedure and two wires run into a cardiac blood vessel. That's why patients with severe diabetes (who don't heal easily and quickly) often do not get them. They may not mind undergoing the surgery and healing from it ONCE, but the prospects of dealing with that every three years or so may make it not compute for them.

As to the "if you don't like it don't buy it blowing off of the subject, If you live in NJ and they become available, that will be the only kind you CAN buy. How log will it take for that to become Federal law applying to the whole U.S.?
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
If someone wants a truly safe gun, they need to take the steps necessary to keep others (including their kids)from getting to them. A portable biometric handgun safe is only about $250-300 depending on the brand....some are even cheaper, but I never recommend cheap stuff sold by bottom-line-oriented corporations.



Sooooo....you're in one end of your house, the biometric box is in the other and the theives are in the middle....want a smart gun now?


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
quote:
What battery powered device do you use everyday that is often critical to saving your or other's lives????? Try a car or truck.


And they all have fail one time or another. I just had to replace a trk battery after only 10 months. I carry jumper cables in all my vehicles

Batteries fail all the time and need replacement.

Just a couple of weeks ago on a week long wilderness trip my tripping partners watch battery failed no replacement for who knows all far.


To add this... pacemakers have a life span generally considered to be no more than 3-to-5 years. Then they or their batteries have to be replaced. Almost every professional in medicine knows that. Pacemaker manufacturers don't advertise THAT aspect of them, for their own reasons.

\Pacemakers are surgically placed under the skin in an "out-patient" surgical procedure and two wires run into a cardiac blood vessel. That's why patients with severe diabetes (who don't heal easily and quickly) often do not get them. They may not mind undergoing the surgery and healing from it ONCE, but the prospects of dealing with that every three years or so may make it not compute for them.

As to the "if you don't like it don't buy it blowing off of the subject, If you live in NJ and they become available, that will be the only kind you CAN buy. How log will it take for that to become Federal law applying to the whole U.S.?


Life span of pacemaker batteries is generally between 5 and 15 years, depends on how busy the device has to be.

But, so what, a smart gun battery can certainly have an indicator of lifespan left. It also might be possible to allow a smart gun to become "dumb" if the battery fails.

None of these stupid "maybe, what if" excuses and scenarios stand up to dozens of dead children which is a current reality.

The really frightening aspect is that the ones opposed are taking the exact position of socialist/centrist planners saying they know what is better for someone else than the individual does. Stand up for freedom, let the market decide if smart guns are a smart idea or not. Like I said earlier, don't like it, don't buy one.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:

The really frightening aspect is that the ones opposed are taking the exact position of socialist/centrist planners saying they know what is better for someone else than the individual does. Stand up for freedom, let the market decide if smart guns are a smart idea or not. Like I said earlier, don't like it, don't buy one.


+1

There is a very legitimate business reason the established US gun industry hates this product.

(1) it will be the new thing and when it catches on will form a large percentage of new handguns sold. Police will adopt it as so will the public. What else is the new toy to buy in the gun world ?

(2) It will tie into wearable computing - fitbit, iwatch ect - be totally integrated with a computer one is wearing.

(3) The established US gun industry is not doing the research to develop this - they are in a tough spot politically to design a new safe gun given they have existing dumb guns.

Look at Glock - Gaston Glock main advantage was he had a clean slate. No existing tooling or machinery ect. He could design a simple tool for $50-$60 bucks that sells for $400. A clean slate helps, Gaston became a billionaire along the way.

We will see smarts guns come out of US or Europe and the designer will have a technology background. And if the US gun distribution system does not want to sell it - it will be a great business opportunity to step into the void.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Or the anti's could demand that all old styled guns be turned. NJs law is already in place that no other types be sold.

Remington's Electric rifle took the gun world by storm didn't it.

All other handgun manufactures went by the way side after Glock came into the world.
 
Posts: 19696 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Remington's Electric rifle took the gun world by storm didn't it.

All other handgun manufactures went by the way side after Glock came into the world.


You're simply reinforcing my point of letting capitalism work instead of imposing your vast wisdom on what other people might want to buy.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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http://kodiakarms.com/product/intelligun/

I may have to buy a full size 1911.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
http://kodiakarms.com/product/intelligun/

I may have to buy a full size 1911.

Mike


I think you should they are always nice to have around.
 
Posts: 19696 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:


Life span of pacemaker batteries is generally between 5 and 15 years, depends on how busy the device has to be.

on.


The 3-to-5 years I quoted is not for batteries...it is for the whole rig, no matter which part it is that fails in them.

I've been through this very subject with at least 10 cardiologists, and thay all say the same thing...after 3-5 years a pacemaker may fail at any time. That doesn't mean they all fail between 3-5 years...no one knows when they will fail. But that is the "pretty sure it will work" life all of them tell me. But how would they know, all they do is install them and monitor their patients (and replace failing/failed ones if they still have the chance.

I had a Ford F-250 IH diesel which had 480,000 miles on it when I traded it in. It was still running perfectly. So I am sure there may be folks out there who have had their pacemakers 20 years with no problems at all.

But I wouldn't count on that kind of life from either cars, pacemakers....or "smart" guns.

I still think the best gun safety made was built by God and is located between the gun owner's ears.


My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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Market forces are one thing, politicians are another.
IF the 'smart gun' technology gets perfected, the outcry to ban dumb guns will get louder than it Already is.gov't will claim that it is a 'reasonable, narrowly defined, restriction' and that your 2nd Amendment rights are not being violated b/c you can have a smart gun.
The technology may be smart, but giving politicians and the dumb masses more power is not.
 
Posts: 1991 | Location: Sinton, TX | Registered: 16 June 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Texas Killartist:
Market forces are one thing, politicians are another.
IF the 'smart gun' technology gets perfected, the outcry to ban dumb guns will get louder than it Already is.gov't will claim that it is a 'reasonable, narrowly defined, restriction' and that your 2nd Amendment rights are not being violated b/c you can have a smart gun.
The technology may be smart, but giving politicians and the dumb masses more power is not.



Teamed with the network and publishing media of this country, I can foresee within one to two years of the gun becoming available the NJ law would be copied to cover the whole country, by federal fiat and/or legislation.

The "free market" is a convenient myth in America, invoked any time one wants to do anything which would infringe on either the rights of others, or their competitors. It is very often used to drag a red herring through a debate where they don't want to recognize that their opponent in a debate has sound points which they can't refute.

Funny how that point is never invoked to defend heroin sellers, pimps, etc., isn't it? No, it is more often used to avoid telling points made by an opponent in a debate.
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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