You know Les, I remember that now.
Butch

I really hopes this turns around for Bill and this gets resolved.
I sent him a couple of pre-64 stocks for pattern's that were not orignal to help him when he started his business.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
You know Les, I remember that now.
Butch

I remember also. I tried to get in on the $85. checkering jobs but could never get Bill to respond to my emails and phone calls.

Bill did one of his budget checkering jobs on a working .416 for me. It weas very well done, with quick turnaround. I haven't been in contact since, and before reading this thread would have happily recommended him.
Bill

Butch ; That's why people trust you and a good number of other Gunsmiths on this site .

Because most all of You STAND UP !. Time tables are important dependability and quality are paramount.

However far more important than price or time frame is COMMUNICATION !!!.

For the most part Everyone understands certain things go beyond an individuals control from time to time .

Not owing up to a client is not only Despicable deceitful it's down right detrimental to ones

reputation !!!.

I hope this works out well for both Bill and the folks he owes work to. I believe he is basically a good man, regardless what kind of "patch" he is going through in his life right now.

Sometimes life overwhelms even the best of us. But, whatever it costs us, I don't believe it is ever cause to deny understanding of, patience with, and forgiveness of our fellow beings.

Every action has consequences. Those consequences are not always "fair" either...sometimes the "good people" suffer and the "bad people" don't appear to.

But really, who is the better man?...Those with the character, wit, and circumstances to sail through life without personal problems, or Those who do not have those attributes in surplus; who do their damnedest to make their way honourably but sometimes fail miserably.

The Great Spirit knows why he made each individual the way he did. I don't.

About 4 years ago, I wanted a hot Pontiac V-8 installed in my old Porsche, just for grins. I contracted with a young auto shop owner up in Amity, Oregon to do the work, gave him my car, the engine, and all the stuff (about $8,000 of parts) to build it with, plus $1,000 up front. His specialty was building AC Cobra repros and I had seen a lot of his finished work, so wasn't concerned with his capabilities. I was to pay for the rest of his labour on delivery of the finished car back to me.

Time (1.5 years) went by and I became discouraged.

Eventually, I drove up to have a serious chat with him. A moving van was at his auto shop when I arrived, next to his house, and its crew was packing all the belongings of him, his wife, and their SIX little kids.

They were leaving that day to move to Albuquerque, N.M, where his wife was going back to school to finish her nursing degree. She was then going to have to go to work as a nurse to help bring their lives out of financial ruin.

He was obviously not going to tell me he was leaving, or for that matter notify me of his having gone. He was losing his home, his business, everything except his family. Obviously his self-respect and pride were definitely gone.

He was very obviously ashamed, distraught, confused and almost terminally discouraged.

He started to tell me he hadn't the money I had paid him, and that he would do everything he could to repay me.

I told him not to worry about it, to keep the money and consider it as a gift indicating my hopes for God to help him and his family out....that I felt the Great Spirit surely didn't want a debt to me to be yet another millstone around his neck, lending to suffering by his wife & kids who were already facing great disruption.

His relief was so palpable, it made him and his wife both break down crying.

He trailered my car, engine, parts, everything except the money, back down to my local garage here 150 miles away and I bade him well.

Do I feel ripped off and bitter? Not only NO, but HELL NO!!!

When I was young, I lived on the streets of Watts, California. I almost starved to death...lost 70 pounds in 7 months and became very ill. The Army saved my life by letting me lie about my age to join. I would have given almost anything if someone had given me $100, or even just some food...one real meal, let alone $1,000.

Eventually, life gave me the chance to help that young car builder and I did it. I've never regretted it for a minute. Hopefully he turned a corner headed in the right direction. If not, it wasn't because of a mean-spirited act on my part.

Hopefully, Bill will make it through his tough times too, and we will all be better off for it.

I surely hope so.

Alberta Canuck, Amen.

That is a touching story Alberta and a nice gesture on your part. However the guy had the needed parts and a grand to get started. Seems to me the only reason he didn't get it done and collect the rest of his money is he was too lazy to work. Yeah, I can see it no other way then you were ripped off. Nice of you to walk away from an noncollectable debt but you were still ripped off.

I agree Howard. I just don't understand people sometimes, it's quite baffling.

Wow. This reminds me of the Jack Belk thing.

"Beer is good, God is great and People are Crazy"
comes to mind every time i read a post like this.

James

quote:

Originally posted by ikesdad:
Wow. This reminds me of the Jack Belk thing.

It's funny, I have followed this thread and I had parts for a barreled action with Belk when he went MIA, but I never saw the similarities.

Jack was a well known metalsmith, a true master. But Belk was unmotivated, from what I can gather. He had a ton of jobs, but just didn't need the money, so the jobs sat. I got most of my stuff back, less an irreplaceable PME 3 position safety.


Bill on the other hand was just getting his feet under him and does need the money from the sounds of it. My guess is that he has found other work and has let his custom stock work sit. I hold out hope that Bill will make everyone hole sooner or later, he should still be interested in salvaging his reputation.

Is there anyone in Bills area who can go by and talk to him?

Alberta Canuck

If you had not shown up that day, what would have happened to your car and parts?

(taken from another site)

Frank

You have some beautiful rifles. I like the lines of the Johnston and Gervais the best. You can't get more classic than that rifle. How about some close ups of various parts of that rifle?

Who did the work on your .270 everyday hunting rifle?



A guy named Bill Soverns. Unfortunately he had to recently close up shop. He's baggin up and shippin me back a coupla bareled actions and blanks. One is a G33/40 with a hollowed out/4 panel bolt, again with custom bases for Conetrol rings, set triggers, Lothar Walther barrel (yet another 270), the other is I believe at least a transition pre 64 (maybe pre war, can't remember) mod 70 in 300 win with a Krieger barrel and the same Conetrol set up. The blanks are english for the 270 and paradox for the 300 Win.

I will say this, there is no substitute for a properly wood/steel bedded action. None of those custom jobs have a stitch of glass or pillars in em and they shoot better than any synthetic stocked rifle I have (most of which need pillars, etc..........)

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
(taken from another site)

Frank

You have some beautiful rifles. I like the lines of the Johnston and Gervais the best. You can't get more classic than that rifle. How about some close ups of various parts of that rifle?

Who did the work on your .270 everyday hunting rifle?



A guy named Bill Soverns. Unfortunately he had to recently close up shop. He's baggin up and shippin me back a coupla bareled actions and blanks. One is a G33/40 with a hollowed out/4 panel bolt, again with custom bases for Conetrol rings, set triggers, Lothar Walther barrel (yet another 270), the other is I believe at least a transition pre 64 (maybe pre war, can't remember) mod 70 in 300 win with a Krieger barrel and the same Conetrol set up. The blanks are english for the 270 and paradox for the 300 Win.

I will say this, there is no substitute for a properly wood/steel bedded action. None of those custom jobs have a stitch of glass or pillars in em and they shoot better than any synthetic stocked rifle I have (most of which need pillars, etc..........)

22WRF, where did you find that post?

Thanks,
John

It was on 24HR Campfire.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Alberta Canuck

If you had not shown up that day, what would have happened to your car and parts?

I suspect they would have disappeared. And so? Even if I dedicated my life to getting them back and making him suffer for my losing them, how much of my remaining few years would that have taken? What condition would they be in when I got them? How much would it have cost me to recover them?

Then, in addition to being a failed businessman, he would have been a thief...or someone who took them from where he left them there at his old shop would have been.

So, does that mean I should have added to his troubles? Not in my life, if I could avoid it, which I could and did.

I went away feeling relieved. I didn't have to fret and stew for a year or two or more, trying to round him up to reclaim money and stuff which would not be there to reclaim anyway without harming his family. He got a chance to start over without a possible prison record. His wife and kids are still part of a family with a guy who loves them all, despite his bad side. I don't think that's too bad for $1,000.

I mean, heck, none of us owns anything anyway. It is all just on temporary assignment to our use until we move on.

I am certainly not perfect, so if he had stolen a gun from me, I might not prove so calm, my guns mean more to me than my cars....but I would hope I could be. Life is too short to spend it getting even with people.

The trick, without sounding too Christian (which faith I am not) is to do what all the great philosophies have taught for at least the last 6,000 years...hate the sin, not the sinner. And don't mess one's own peace up over things which don't really matter in the long run anyway.

YMMV

AC
I didn't mean that you should have take him to the wall, I was just curious if he had a plan to notify you.

Great quote BTW:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
The trick, without sounding too Christian (which I am not) is to do what all the great philosophies have taught for at least the last 6,000 years...hate the sin, not the sinner. And don't mess one's own peace up over things which don't really matter in the long run anyway.

YMMV

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
That is a touching story Alberta and a nice gesture on your part. However the guy had the needed parts and a grand to get started. Seems to me the only reason he didn't get it done and collect the rest of his money is he was too lazy to work. Yeah, I can see it no other way then you were ripped off. Nice of you to walk away from an noncollectable debt but you were still ripped off.

Well, Howard, you may be right. Maybe I was ripped off. But maybe not. I didn't walk in his shoes, and I suspect you haven't either. It is easy to assume he was lazy and didn't try...but it may not be true. Which of us knows the effort he put out and the pressures he was under?

I think I mentioned he was very confused, upset, etc. He was not proud of his situation or his actions.

But even if I WAS ripped off, So? The U.S. government rips me off every day of my life. They take my money by force and coercion to feed and care for illegal aliens...they send my kids and nephews and neighbors off to death in a war which is mainly an ill-justified disaster supporting the military-industrial complex. They make me pay for hokey government programs which directly enable bankers to take home million dollar bonuses for destroying our economy...and as you know, that isn't 10% of what they do to all of us.

So thanks, but I don't see this kid's possible rip-off of me as even in the same league with many of the evils we all put up with every day without enough complaints by us collectively to change anything.

And then, of course, there was that guy (can't recall his name) who said "Judge not, lest thee be judged"....meaning, we can judge acts as good or evil, but we are in no pristine position ourselves to judge the actors.

John,
You should be able to find Frank's post from this link.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...php/topics/3508962/8
Butch

AC

It would be a pleasure to meet you some day.

So far, Alberta Canuck, you've hit at least three home runs in this thread.

That, folks, is wisdom.

flaco

quote:

AC

It would be a pleasure to meet you some day.

+1

Alberta, your car guy most likely was both a failed business man and a thief. He spared you because you showed up before he had skipped town. I'm betting others didn't fair as well. There is nothing worse than a thief.

I will go to great lengths to offer my generosity and understanding to a person in a tough situation if he is first an honest and honorable man, there is no honor among thieves or business men who treat customers as Bill has appearently treated his. Failing isn't the sin here , it's the lack of courage and self respect to own the failure and make those affected as whole as can possibly be done.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

Well, Howard, you may be right. Maybe I was ripped off. But maybe not. I didn't walk in his shoes, and I suspect you haven't either. It is easy to assume he was lazy and didn't try...but it may not be true. Which of us knows the effort he put out and the pressures he was under?

I think I mentioned he was very confused, upset, etc. He was not proud of his situation or his actions.

But even if I WAS ripped off, So? The U.S. government rips me off every day of my life. They take my money by force and coercion to feed and care for illegal aliens...they send my kids and nephews and neighbors off to death in a war which is mainly an ill-justified disaster supporting the military-industrial complex. They make me pay for hokey government programs which directly enable bankers to take home million dollar bonuses for destroying our economy...and as you know, that isn't 10% of what they do to all of us.

So thanks, but I don't see this kid's possible rip-off of me as even in the same league with many of the evils we all put up with every day without enough complaints by us collectively to change anything.

And then, of course, there was that guy (can't recall his name) who said "Judge not, lest thee be judged"....meaning, we can judge acts as good or evil, but we are in no pristine position ourselves to judge the actors.

Your actions were honorable. I tip my hat to you. Your actions have nothing to do with the behavior of the other. I think we can leave it at that.

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
Alberta, your car guy most likely was both a failed business man and a thief. He spared you because you showed up before he had skipped town. I'm betting others didn't fair as well. There is nothing worse than a thief.

I will go to great lengths to offer my generosity and understanding to a person in a tough situation if he is first an honest and honorable man, there is no honor among thieves or business men who treat customers as Bill has appearently treated his. Failing isn't the sin here , it's the lack of courage and self respect to own the failure and make those affected as whole as can possibly be done.

Whatever you can sleep with.

My car guy may have been the devil incarnate. On the other hand he may have simply lacked enough money to avoid bankruptsy brought on by unforseen medical bills and not enough insurance to cover a family of eight. Or, who knows where & what in between those two extremes?

For all I know, he may even have intended to call me and make some arrangement even while his family was enroute to Albuquerque.

He may not have even known enough about his own immediate future to know what to tell me if he DID call.

It may also be that he and his wife were afraid to call me, dreading some sort of action I might take to recoup my money...and which might prevent her from being able to pay her tuition to get her last semester of nursing school, so she could get a job to help keep things afloat....in effect yanking away their one last hope (as they might have seen it at the time).

Of course we can all sit back from afar and cast stones at him or both of them.

And I agree, better communication by him would have made the whole thing look a Hell of a lot better from my perspective.

But I can understand both fear and making bad decisions. Have been to both places and done both myself. There are parts of MY life I would like to do over again, differently, too.

With the car guy I was, and still am, trying not to do any important wrong to anyone again.

Everyone else has to look in their own mirror every morning. That includes Bill and his critics.

Best wishes, y'all.

quote:

Originally posted by billtrev:

quote:

AC

It would be a pleasure to meet you some day.

+1

+2

quote:

hate the sin, not the sinner

AC,
I believe this is called "unconditional positive regard" People once showed it to me and my life changed for the better. I wonder if my actions now would make them pleased that they had helped me or discouraged by my life and my choices. I sincerely hope the first.

I live in the vicinity (sort of) of Bill and might be able to contact him but it would be better if you sent registered letters requiring signatures to him asking for your goods back. Remember that he might not have enough spare money to ship them and it would probably be a good idea to tell him it is OK to ship them collect. I know that I would rather lose a little more money than lose what ever of mine he might be holding.

When dreams die, part of you dies with them and makes it hard to look the other people in the eye. Been there, done that, learned my lesson. I respect myself now and am not about to do something that would cause me to lose my self-respect; the lesson was not cheap though. I hope none of you are in a position to lose anything of sentimental value and that if you do take a loss, it is a small one.

I suggest that giving Bill a little way to save face would go a long way toward getting your items back in your hands instead of losing them forever.

Alberta, I guess I look at it this way, character is defined by how one responds to the bad times in life not the good. Sometimes it takes a few bad times for some. I actually think holding people accountable helps them more than it hurts.

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
Alberta, I guess I look at it this way, character is defined by how one responds to the bad times in life not the good. Sometimes it takes a few bad times for some. I actually think holding people accountable helps them more than it hurts.

I don't disagree with any of that. What is true however, is that we can't give them justice until we know all of the circumstances, so we can make a good guesstimate of what IS just. With Bill, we don't know what the situation is, or at least no one has posted that information if they do know it.

And even then, our goal should be to get things back on the right tack for everyone's benefit, not just to exercize our self-assumed power as judges over those who have failed to meet our expectations.

Being accountable means what the word suggests...settling their account...weighing their life's credits and debits, including the circumstances they may be enduring/have endured, and arriving at a fair (equitable) conclusion as to what the extent of their personal culpability is.

If you think they want to be disliked, want to be shunned, want to have a difficult life, and thus intentionally chose to fail in their life, may I then suggest that is indeed not very likely?

Probably something is in play here that we need to know about in more detail before we presume to judge Bill, even if we just call it "holding him accountable, for his own good".


BTW, I suggest character is not weighed solely on the basis of how a person responds to bad times, but what, if anything, he learns from his failures in his actions, and how and when he tries to do better.

To me, judging a person hastily is a failure from which many more could profit by learning its pitfalls and trying to abbreviate/alleviate that failing in their own characters.

quote:

To me, judging a person hastily is a failure from which many more could profit by learning its pitfalls and trying to abbreviate/alleviate that failing in their own characters.

AC

I have tried to stay out of this.

But.... the best thing anyone can do that has stuff with Bill is to start the proceedings to get them back.

I would start with the Sheriff of Butte county (Fred Lamphere)(605)892-3324. He has his hands full right now, as he had to take control of the Belle Fourche city police dept, in addtion to his county duties. But that is still the best place to start.

That is my advice to anyone out there with possesions at Bill's.

Bill Soverns is water under the bridge as far as I am concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
I have tried to stay out of this.

But.... the best thing anyone can do that has stuff with Bill is to start the proceedings to get them back.

I would start with the Sheriff of Butte county (Fred Lamphere)(605)892-3324. He has his hands full right now, as he had to take control of the Belle Fourche city police dept, in addtion to his county duties. But that is still the best place to start.

That is my advice to anyone out there with possesions at Bill's.

And I would agree with all of that. That would be a natural consequence of his actions so far.
It would likely also help keep things from getting older, more complicated, more embittered, and worse all the way around.

Further, I would recommend that if necessary going on with any further required steps...such as complaints to the County DA, whatever.

Nothing I said before was intended to suggest that people roll over and let themselves be shafted, IF indeed that is what may be to come. It was simply that whatever the circumstances, they take them all into account and, when things are all over and done, not view Bill as an intentionally or inately evil person. That surely doesn't mean I think they should do business with him if he does not deliver for them on time and on price.

As said before, every act has its consequences, and we all have to meet those consequences for our own acts, Bill included.

And if it later turns out that Bill's circumstances/actions show him to be a victim of over-reaching or some other fault common to many of us, or of a situation he did not cause or could not cope with, that he be given a chance (when he earns it) of receiving a welcome back into our community of friends and acquaintances.

Peace be with you, brother AC.

For me, there's honesty, straight talk, clear understanding, good faith and fair dealing.

Preferably in that order.

Nothing less and nothing else, whether inside or outside of church.

I may forgive, but I will not forget.

But that's just me.

I recognize that there are other opinions on such matters.

Some of them I may even respect, but most I won't, depending of course on facts and circumstances.

Amen.

quote:

Originally posted by ikesdad:
Wow. This reminds me of the Jack Belk thing.

Jack hasn't been the only person involved in a situation like this- there have been others; seems it starts with bargain prices and a ton of jobs shipped to the gunsmith, the gunsmith becomes overwhelmed with it all, so he sits down and does nothing.

I've had a false-start or two in my lifetime in unrelated fields of endeavor. I'd have to say in my experience I was running scared.

I don't condone or condemn... it's been seen here before.