Sure seems so with all these attacks and abuse of Jews and Palestinians that reside in this country just to name two. Are people so naive that they think all decendants of the like are equal? Get it right people. These Jewish folks aren't responsible for any Israeli retribution. So, why do some people hate these people? Why do people hate Palestinians now? Not all Palestinians are pro Hamas including residents of Palestine itself. I believe that prior to the brutal invasion, most Israelis and Pelestinians minded their own business. As for the Israeli retribution, what would you (if you were the invaded country's leader) do. Say, please don't do that again. We forgive you. I doubt that. Just seems like people don't appreciate how lucky they are living here and are bent on hate. Stop the hate already. CB

Actually, the people whose country was INVADED are the Palestinians.

It was the British who promised parts of Palestine to the Zionists.

Palestine existed for hundreds of years.

The idea was to help those who are being persecuted by the Christians in Europe.

They were supposed to go there and be homed without affecting the normal people living there.

Sadly, Zionism, had other ideas.

Even now, new illegal colonies are being built on stolen Palestinians lands.

Peace will not be possible unless the Palestinians are allowed to govern themselves, not being locked in modern concentration camps.

Zionism is to Jews as ISIS is to Muslims.

The sooner we get rid of both the sooner we would all live in peace!


November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

Lots of 'food for thought' there.
So Saeed have people gone mad here? I'm sure other countries have similar protests and in some cases violence. So, expand if you can. Opinion appreciated.
CB

Very complicated area of our world.

Written history is fuzzy on whether a formal country called Palestine ever existed. My research indicates it was an area or a region, never a country. I can’t find any formal borders, capital or government body documented that existed like other formal countries.

Written history indicates the Ottoman’s controlled the area before WW1 and the British controlled it after WW1. Also, history indicates the Arab factions (inhabitants of the area, not country) got screwed over versus what they were promised for supporting Britain against the Ottomans. Since Britain controlled the area, they made the rules (to included immigration). Israel independence in 1948 (war started in 1947) and a formal country with documented borders and a government. No legal resolution for centuries of different opinions of ownership, so war it has been and will continue. So far, Israel has been victorious.

I have the impression that western ideas of nationhood and borders were historically not a big part of middle eastern culture.

Agreed. More like the American Indians of the 1800’s excluding the Cherokees.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock63:
Very complicated area of our world.

Written history is fuzzy on whether a formal country called Palestine ever existed. My research indicates it was an area or a region, never a country. I can’t find any formal borders, capital or government body documented that existed like other formal countries.

Written history indicates the Ottoman’s controlled the area before WW1 and the British controlled it after WW1. Also, history indicates the Arab factions (inhabitants of the area, not country) got screwed over versus what they were promised for supporting Britain against the Ottomans. Since Britain controlled the area, they made the rules (to included immigration). Israel independence in 1948 (war started in 1947) and a formal country with documented borders and a government. No legal resolution for centuries of different opinions of ownership, so war it has been and will continue. So far, Israel has been victorious.

Before 1948 ther WAS a country called PALESTINE.

It was under the British occupation.

The Brits promised it to the Zionists.

Read the Belfour Declaration above.

If you wish to ignore history, that is your choice.

Peace will never be achieved as long as the Palestinians are kept in concentration camps.

Israel keep building new colonies on Palestinian land.

Gaza is just a glorified concentration camp.

Israel controls their water, electricity, Internet and banking.


Would you accept to live under these conditions in your own homes??

Interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock63:
Agreed. More like the American Indians of the 1800’s excluding the Cherokees.

It's called Tribalism and a good part of the world is still at that stage.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Rock63:
Very complicated area of our world.

Written history is fuzzy on whether a formal country called Palestine ever existed. My research indicates it was an area or a region, never a country. I can’t find any formal borders, capital or government body documented that existed like other formal countries.

Written history indicates the Ottoman’s controlled the area before WW1 and the British controlled it after WW1. Also, history indicates the Arab factions (inhabitants of the area, not country) got screwed over versus what they were promised for supporting Britain against the Ottomans. Since Britain controlled the area, they made the rules (to included immigration). Israel independence in 1948 (war started in 1947) and a formal country with documented borders and a government. No legal resolution for centuries of different opinions of ownership, so war it has been and will continue. So far, Israel has been victorious.

Before 1948 ther WAS a country called PALESTINE.

It was under the British occupation.

The Brits promised it to the Zionists.

Read the Belfour Declaration above.

If you wish to ignore history, that is your choice.

Peace will never be achieved as long as the Palestinians are kept in concentration camps.

Israel keep building new colonies on Palestinian land.

Gaza is just a glorified concentration camp.

Israel controls their water, electricity, Internet and banking.


Would you accept to live under these conditions in your own homes??

If your nation of Palestine was under British "Rule", and before that under Ottoman " Rule" it doesn't sound like much of a nation.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock63:
Agreed. More like the American Indians of the 1800’s excluding the Cherokees.

Maybe somewhat like the Yuroks, who didn't have much of a central government entity?

Saeed, what do you think of the Yuroks?

I’m not trying to ignore history, I’m trying to find documentation that Palestine was more than a region. I’m not referring to ancient Palestine (or Israel), just trying to find Palestine as a country anytime with documented borders and government before 1947. Constant facts are the Ottoman’s ruled the Palestine Region before WW1 and Britain ruled the Palestine Region after WW1 up until the time Jordan and Israel became sovereign nations along with changes to borders with surrounding existing countries.

It is also documented that Jewish people lived in the Palestine Region prior to 1917, and then Britain enabled a sizable Jewish immigration movement following their taking control over the region.

From my point of view to the Palestine Region, it appears that what is now Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel and Saudi Arabia got some of the land that should have been in a Palestine country. So, this makes it appear like the only problem is having a Jewish country in the Palestine Region versus losing their land (ie it’s ok for Arabs to steal the land, not Jews).

I’ll admit my research skills are sub par so if anybody can point me to some better information, please do so.


I don’t think Israel will ever concede any land and I don’t think the Palestinians will ever accept Jews in the Holy Land. Neither will recognize any single authority to arbitrate the issues so it will be war as it has been.

As to living conditions, I’ve no doubt that I would find it unacceptable as you do, but I can drive nearly anywhere in the US and see the impact of poverty.

As to tribalism still active in most parts of the world, I’m having a hard time with examples.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock63:
I’m not trying to ignore history, I’m trying to find documentation that Palestine was more than a region. I’m not referring to ancient Palestine (or Israel), just trying to find Palestine as a country anytime with documented borders and government before 1947. Constant facts are the Ottoman’s ruled the Palestine Region before WW1 and Britain ruled the Palestine Region after WW1 up until the time Jordan and Israel became sovereign nations along with changes to borders with surrounding existing countries.

It is also documented that Jewish people lived in the Palestine Region prior to 1917, and then Britain enabled a sizable Jewish immigration movement following their taking control over the region.

From my point of view to the Palestine Region, it appears that what is now Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel and Saudi Arabia got some of the land that should have been in a Palestine country. So, this makes it appear like the only problem is having a Jewish country in the Palestine Region versus losing their land (ie it’s ok for Arabs to steal the land, not Jews).

I’ll admit my research skills are sub par so if anybody can point me to some better information, please do so.


I don’t think Israel will ever concede any land and I don’t think the Palestinians will ever accept Jews in the Holy Land. Neither will recognize any single authority to arbitrate the issues so it will be war as it has been.

As to living conditions, I’ve no doubt that I would find it unacceptable as you do, but I can drive nearly anywhere in the US and see the impact of poverty.

As to tribalism still active in most parts of the world, I’m having a hard time with examples.

Walid Murad told me that when he was growing up, the border between Syria and Lebanon was indistinct.
People knew there was one, but no one was especially interested in its location.

I would guess from the time we learned to walk upright we started taking from others what they were unable to protect or defend..........and nothing has changed.

Prior to the recognition of Palestine in 1988 it was a geographical area. Governed by Egypt and Jordan if I am not mistaken. Populated by some Jews and Arabs. There was no State of Palestine until 1988. Palestine included the area now known as Israel and Gaza. The United Nations partitioned the area in 1947. In 1988 Yasser Arafat issued the Palestinian Declaration of Independence, creating the State of Palestine. In 2007 after an election, Hamas took control of thew Gaza Strip. The Hamas Covenant clearly sets out its goals.

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August 18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS, is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad (Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS Covenant:​​​​​​​​​​​​​
VERBATIM FROM THE HAMAS COVENANT
​Goals of the HAMAS:
​"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." (Article 6)

On the destruction of Israel:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)

The exclusive Moslem nature of the area:
"The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it." (Article 11)
"Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be." (Article 13)

The call to jihad:
"The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)
"Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about." (Article 33)

Rejection of a negotiated peace settlement:
"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:
"Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act." (Article 32)

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)
"The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it." (Article 22)

Israel has not been without fault but it must be realized that it exists next to a State bent on its destruction. What is happening now is tragic but Israel does have aright to protect itself and Hamas uses the citizens of Palestine to shield itself from attack.