tax rate chart


As a result of all the fiscal cliff discussions I came on this very interesting interactive chart to calculate the equivalent amt of dollars then and now (inflation adjusted) and the effective tax rate on same. The interesting thing about this is not the tax rate but how the effects of inflation have affected the value of your earnings, for instance $500,000 today is the equivalent of $51,831 in 1949, my birth year and the effective tax rate on that amount would have been 41.3%.

To me, more interesting is that if you use the 1949 then current (and unavailable to US citizens in normal commerce) price of gold/oz of $35 and my parents had earned $51,831(they didn't, by a long shot) 1949's equivalent of $500,000 in today's inflation adjusted dollars, in my birth year of 1949 and had converted it all to gold, or about 1481 oz Au, the today's value of same would be, using $1700/oz, over $2,517,000 dollars or roughly 5 times the dollar amount adjusted for inflation. So, using this example, gold has outperformed inflation by roughly 5x since 1949. Of course, if you pick different starting points, such as 1980, then the result could well be the other way.

Using the same process if one had earned the equivalent of $500,000 in today's dollars in 1975, the first year since 1933 that US citizen's could own gold, then if one had bought $117,164 oz of gold at that year's more or less average gold price of $160/oz. Note: these numbers are more or less approximations since this is just a fun calculation, not meant to be completely accurate to the penny. Than that gold, roughly 732 oz would be worth about $1,244,000 or about 2.5x inflation adjusted value in dollars.

Taking what is the worst case scenario, if one had used all their income for 1980 to purchase gold at the all time high ,until the last few years, in Jan 1980 of $850/oz. Then your then eq of $500,000 in today's dollars would have been $179,448 and you would have bt about 211 oz gold. The value of that gold today would be about $358,000 or you would have been BEHIND inflation by about 30%. To break even with inflation, gold would have to be about $2370/oz.

I guess the moral, if there is one, is to pick your spots and don't make long term financial decisions buying something at or near record highs. It might be a time to consider NOT owning gold for this reason. Just a thought.

Really the answer is to live in a western civilized society. Nothing matters if social order and the rule of law breaks down. even then don't forget FDR seized all the investment gold in the US. Obama will do the same is a heart beat if he see's a political advantage. Governments can and will manipulate gold prices, out law or heavily tax the sale etc.

Once a society moves away from the Western concepts of the rule of law rational planing for the distant future becomes an exercise in futility. There are no safe havens when there is no control over government activity.

On a small scale gold is used extensively all over the 3rd world as collateral for short term loans. Jewelry and coins are Pawned and reclaimed. But using gold as an inflation hedge, while not a bad idea, is a roll of the dice just like everything else except death and taxes. The United States that most of our historical economic data is based is long long gone. Personally I believe that historical data from Argentina or Brazil will Do a much better job of forecasting future outcomes in the US.

Anbody got any data on how people holding gold in Argentina have done over the last century?

Good point Gato although I am highly skeptical of the published inflation measures. My seat of the pants feel is that they generally understate inflation, specially over the last few years.

The CPI is definitely off, not necessarily being manipulated but the way of figuring is certainly subject to interpretation. The "use/utility" value is the prime example. For instance, if a television, costs $200 last year, but they came out with a newer, better model that does the same thing but better with clearer screen or whatever for $200, being simplistic for the sake of inflation, as relates to that television, inflation would be negative, even though it costs the same amount but you get more for your money. Of course, if you buy one, you're still out $200.

Currently CPI figures inflation is running somewhere around 2.5 to 3% according to CPI, but anyone who goes to the grocery store knows that food inflation is probably more like 10 to 15%. You don't have to have a television, but we do have to eat.

AFA as gold goes, this is really just a WAG on my part, but I think we may have a pop to the $2500 area in the next couple of years BUT we could see $1100 to $1300 during the process. I currently have very little gold, I sold most of it last year.

As relates to my investing in gold, I will nibble back in below $1600, would be more aggressive below $1500, and would be a strong buyer in the $1300 or less area. If it goes straight up from here, I've just missed the boat. Short term, I can foresee a pop to the $1800 level when the "sequestration" talks go belly up, as they almost assuredly will.

Wanna SPECULATE, buy silver at current levels, then sell it or trade for gold if it pops back up into the 40s again. Using rough numbers, current gold-silver ration is about 55:1. I'd switch to gold below 45 and switch gold to silver above 60.

As in all precious metals dealings, the REAL KEY is to buy with low transaction costs. Keep that in mind. If it costs you 10% to buy and 10% to sell then the metal has to go up roughly 22% to break even. A sucker's bet.

Gold is very under priced right now... but that because it's being suppressed..... :-)

quote:

Originally posted by richj:
Gold is very under priced right now... but that because it's being suppressed..... :-)

A lesson from the past (FDR), do NOT buy just any old modern gold as when Obama (as did FDR) takes the gold he can (under law) take that.
But high grade US coins that are considered to have Numismatic value. I.e an MS 64 1900 Double Eagle qualifies and is worth a lot more than the gold in it. It also appreciates faster (and costs more up front). Thanks to my Dad buying high grade US gold coins when Gold was $300 an ounce as well as I am still buying them on every dip, the nestegg grows and is safe from the Kenyan's grasp.

I hope you're right about keeping it out of his grasp.You are correct in the CURRENT law concerning numismatic exemtions. Laws can change.I have found however that the democratic party of today is quite similar to a 3 year old. If they don't get their way they just speak louder + stomp their foot until they get their way.Sounds like they need a spanking.

The only issue with tying much $$$ up in gold is that in hard times, you may have trouble finding someone to buy it. I prefer silver, since I can always find a buyer for a few silver dollars.

I agree Rich,even trading for goods w/ gold would require you needing change;which might not happen. Not the same story w/ silver dollars or 1 oz. Englehardt bars.

We're talking apples and oranges here.

I was discussing investing/speculating in gold/silver and/or using it as an inflation hedge.

If someone is talking some kind of survivalist scenario, I would recommend US silver dimes which are readily available for just above spot silver value, well recognized and in small units. Current silver content value of one dime is about $2.17. It's not my business but if anyone wants them in $50 or $100 face amounts I can supply them at $2 above spot plus shipping. There are probably better deals around, but, like I said, it's not my business, I am simply offering this as a service if anyone doesn't want to go to the problems of figuring out how and where to buy them cheaper. I will sell smaller amounts of face value but at $2.50 above spot plus shipping. 90% quarters, halves or dollars available as well. Quarters and halves at same rates, dollars somewhat higher because of popularity and slightly higher silver content but still very reasonable.

One of the cheapest ways to buy "name" physical gold right now is Mex 50 pesos but many people don't particularly like them because of the "odd" gold content of 1.2057 troy oz. Personally I like 'em.

Of course Obama can sieze all your silver too UNDER EXISTING LAW.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Of course Obama can sieze all your silver too UNDER EXISTING LAW.

Source it, please.

It is buried in the Obamacare act As Pelosi said "we have to pass it before we'll know what's in it"

Well this is in it:
"Starting in 2012, precious metal transactions over $600 per year must be reported to the government."

You buy it, they'll know it. So if you own any, don't keep it in a safe Deposit box or at home.

And when Obama issues the executive order to turn it in for 10% of what it is worth, be sure to call 911 and report its theft (along with all you handguns, "assault rifles", ammo and reloading equipment for them.)

"It can't happen here" Yup, that's what 6 million dead Jewish people thought.......

Probably never heard of this outfit either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_Corps

Anybody curious why they have bought 100s of thousands of 5.56 NATO ammo and the ARs to use them ?

"It can't happen here." (chuckle)

That's about what I figured. Geesh, it is hard enough for people to keep up without having the facts obscured by BS like your last post.

First of all, a 1099 requirement is NOT the ability to "seize all your silver too under existing law." In short,

Second, you really need to keep up so your ramblings will have some minor facts backing them up, that part of the act was repealed and signed into law by Obama.....per IRS 1099 guidelines 2012:

quote:

A sale of a precious metal
receiving custody of the security,
• Name of the customer(s) for the account from which the
(gold, silver, platinum, or palladium) in any form for which security is transferred,
the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) has
• Account number for the transferring account and, if not approved trading by regulated futures contract (RFC) is different, the receiving account, not reportable. Further, even if the sale is of a precious
metal in a form for which the CFTC has approved trading by
• CUSIP number of the transferred security,
RFC, the sale is not reportable if the quantity, by weight or
• Number of shares or units,
• Type of security (such as stock),
by number of items, is less than the minimum required
• Date the transfer was initiated and settlement date of the
quantity to satisfy a CFTC-approved RFC.
transfer (if known), and
For example, a broker selling a single gold coin does not
• The security’s total adjusted basis, original acquisition
need to file Form 1099-B even if the coin is of such form and
date, and, if applicable, the holding period adjustment under
quality that it could be delivered to satisfy a CFTC-approved
section 1091.
RFC if all CFTC-approved contracts for gold coins currently
The adjusted basis, original acquisition date, and holding
call for delivery of at least 25 coins.

In short, unless you buy or sell at least or MORE than 25 REPORTABLE coins in less than 24 hours it is not reported. Among many others, Mexican 50 pesos are NOT reported, regardless of quantity.

Sure you can trust him.

How are you enjoying those 800,000 instant Americans, he created with the stroke of his autopen, down there in TX.

Probably be a blue state by 2016 (if we are still even having elections anymore).

Keep your blinders on, you won't notice your freedom vanishing.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Sure you can trust him.

How are you enjoying those 800,000 instant Americans, he created with the stroke of his autopen, down there in TX.

Probably be a blue state by 2016 (if we are still even having elections anymore).

Keep your blinders on, you won't notice your freedom vanishing.

What has trust got to do with your
ABSOLUTELY false report that Obama has the right to seize silver "under existing law."?

As I pointed out, unless you sell MORE than 25 oz of REPORTABLE gold in one day there is no 1099 required.

Seems to me your word is obviously not very trustworthy.

Guess I was too subtle. He violated the US immigration law with the stroke of an autopen.

He'll do the same when he wants your hoard to keep buying votes ...... ask FDR.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Guess I was too subtle. He violated the US immigration law with the stroke of an autopen.

He'll do the same when he wants your hoard to keep buying votes ...... ask FDR.

2 in one thread......

Guess you missed his speech the other day about "tightening" gun laws by Executive order.

The NRA will beat the Justice Department in Obama's Supreme Court ? Yeah sure, look how well the "fast and furious" investigation is going.

Funny little animations just confirm you are a naive dolt.

You would have made a great Polish Jew!

quote:

Of course Obama can sieze all your silver too UNDER EXISTING LAW.

Funny, your posts confirm you are a liar.

All of your following posts after the above are simply efforts on your part to avoid the fact that you made something up out of whole cloth and your paranoia. It seems that all of that smoke on 24 Hr. Campfire was well deserved.

Poor fool, no point in talking about the facts with you as you don't "talk" you just make up whatever suits you. All that "smoke" as you call it was just lies/insults/threats by a few cowards who could never "man up" to prove/do anything they said.

When the ant-gun Executive orders come out, I hope you'll remember how easy it is for the President to do whatever he wants as all checks and balances are gone bye bye.

Notifications OFF, you move to ignore, all done dealing with dolts.

45-70 shooter you need to chill out a bit,everytime I see a post of yours you are either Negative,Defenseful or Paranoid....


The world is not out to get you Buddy....


I have no quarels with you but I just put you on my Ignore list....

You are showing great weakness.



Cal30

quote:

Notifications OFF, you move to ignore, all done dealing with dolts.

Perfect, I detest liars.

Gato

I would help you out, but you seem to be doing OK on your own.

Hey man. How are you? I've wondered about what happened to you from time to time? I thought maybe the Abos got you.

I managed to get away. I retired in September and moved back to God's country.

The Aussie bureaucracy is worse than ours. You have to cancel your visa to get your superannuation (401-k) released. After you apply to cancel the visa it takes more than six months for them to confirm that status. By that time your funds have already been moved to a "general" fund, and you have to chase that.

Another weird quirk. Penfold's Grandfather is a pretty good Australian port. In Australia it costs $100 AUD which is about $104 US. After you ship it to Dallas, it costs $60. Go figure. One of these days the Aussie's are going to realize how badly their industries are screwing their own inhabitants.

The Consumer Price Index is a government LIE.

Not that the figuires they provide are wrong but what they
DO NOT include creates a false message.

The Consumer Price Index specifically excludes the price of Food and Energy.

With Food & Energy excluded, things we spend a large proportion of our income on, the figuires the government
provided for inflation are falsely low.

Gold and Silver investments presume a shaky, but safe environment.

If there is an economic down turn of major significance, who wants to take them in; and who sets the value?

just curious...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Gold and Silver investments presume a shaky, but safe environment.

If there is an economic down turn of major significance, who wants to take them in; and who sets the value?

just curious...

That problem arises with ANYTHING in that type of scenario. Food, ammunition, arms, knives, metals, gems, whatever......there would only be barter. If you don't like the offer and can't make a deal, then either you don't make the trade or you take the worst of it.

I don't recall the man's name anymore, but he and his family left Russia to immigrate to Israel 25 or 30 years ago, only allowed to take what they could carry. He/they sewed about a million and some dollars worth of diamonds in their clothes (real wholesale value, they were in the diamond business, we're talking apples to apples here). Loving fellow Israeli diamond dealers offered them a maximum of $450,000. He was in a bind and had to take it, but he didn't forget. Created an association of diamond dealers over the years and gladly put the thieves out of business, laughing all the way to the bank, I'm sure. This was from an article in "Forbes" about the man.

Situations change values. Just for a common example, I'm one of the worst while driving/traveling to attempt to buy the cheapest gas available. However, I always keep in mind that the marginal value of a gallon of gasoline to me is EXTREMELY high compared to walking 20 miles, or for that matter 2 miles.

How much would you REALLY pay for one more magazine full if you were out of ammo and the last bad guy was coming thru the front door? Like the credit card commercial, it becomes priceless.