I have been sweating bullets and praying for a very close friend whose home was in Butte Creek Canyon northeast of Chico and in the path of this monster fire. Yesterday afternoon, Matt heard from Cal Fire that they were using the defensible space of his yard to try to control the advance -- and that his house was one of 20 out of 400 in the canyon still standing. Hoping it survived the night. The sad news this morning is that this fire has covered 90,000 acres, burned 6,450 structures and killed at least nine people, and probably many more. If anyone here has a moment to send good thoughts and even prayers to the victims of this fire, and for the continued safety of the thousands of responders, I for one will be most grateful.

The big question is why California burns this much ? Surely one could mitigate the situation by removing brush, which it generally seems to be, from around residential areas.

Grizz

Grizz, the brushy fuels seem to be more of an issue in Southern California, where prestige and view properties come well before common sense.
In the case of the Chico fire, these are hills and mountains that have been covered by conifer forests for centuries. But the combination of a drying and warming climate regime in this area and forest management practices that hamper meaningful thinning and harvest has created the "perfect storm" for this kind of catastrophe.
It will be interesting to see if the environmental community -- which hates to see a tree cut and is horrified that logging can produce good-paying jobs -- can get on board with a complete revision of how forests must be managed until such time as the climate returns to a much wetter "normal," if it ever does.

Well stated Bill.There does need to be an intellegent meeting of the minds on this issue.But not by folks sitting in a tree to foil the jacks,like that chick 20 years ago,Moonbean Sunshine Something (the name says it all).

Death toll up to 23 this morning, with more to be found.
Randy, you must be referring to Julia "Butterfly" Hill.

The sad/bad part is, California burns every year, then has mud slides every year and people keep building back.

Some how, some way between the state and the Federal Govt. these ongoing problems have to adressed with realistic solutions.

Whether that means more aggressive management of the vegetation during times of drought or not allowiong the building of homes in certain locations.

Randall, it's a very tough management challenge all right. I have a bigger problem with Hollywood types building on brushy, unstable slopes near Malibu than I do with people living in communities of 25,000 or more in the Sierra foothills. Even if you built or bought there 25 years ago, it is a differnt place today.
Death toll up two more, and they need to bring in DNA labs ...

https://www.theguardian.com/us...dise-recovery-effort

I really don't comprehend as to why with the history of the fire/mud slide cycle in California, the PTB's simply establish practical/realistic land management and forest/brush control measures and aggressively use them and enforce them?

If it means not allowing people to buy or build in certain areas, too bad.

If it means educating the Public as how to make common sense choice when looking for a home site.

I do not like government interfeence anymore than anyone else, but there are some situations that call for realities about a choice that need to be explained to folks, be damned their "Dreams".

I know that is Draconian as hell, but what does anyone gain byu seeing their home burn or washed away in a flood because it was built in a KNOWN flood plain?

Is the enjoyment of the view worth it when people, including emergency personel/pets/livestock/homes are destroyed simply because the view was more important than the actual dangers of building in such a location.

I am not picking on you Bill, it is just difficult for me to fathom as to why people make such choices over and over again without taking the known and recorded history of an area into consideration when making their choice.

Yes, Lora and I live in Tornado Alley, by choice. But with rare exceptions the death and destruction tornados cause is nothing on the scale of the fires in California or the hurricanes along our Gulf and Atlantic Coasts.

Randall, you're not the only one puzzled by the apparent lack of common sense. Seems to me I heard folks being interviewed after Harvey say they had been flooded out multiple times, and still rebuilt in the same place after getting their settlement. Just doesn't add up. You'd think we the taxpayers would call "no bueno, no mas" on this, but it continues.
Most parts of the country face some sort of disaster risk. Back in Oregon it was earthquakes, volcanoes, wildfire and some day a tsunami. Daughter lives in Iowa, so tornadoes are definitely on her menu.

I really do not want to think about the government dictating where any American can live, but at some point there has to be some common sense restrictions put in place to try and reduce the incidences such as what is going on in California or on the coasts annually.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I really do not want to think about the government dictating where any American can live, but at some point there has to be some common sense restrictions put in place to try and reduce the incidences such as what is going on in California or on the coasts annually.

30 some million people in a limited area, a good portion rural, might be part of the problem as well. Almost sounds like the wildfires in Greece and Portugal.

Grizz

The problems go deeper than that I believe.

Forest management is a problem, the trees and under brush are not managed properly.

Houses are being built in locations where vehicle access is an issue, especially as evacuating people during an emergency is concerned.

The problems are multi-faceted and it seems no one wants to say Enough Is Enough!

The fire by Malibu is burning through brush that has evolved to be burned to the ground every few years and come back from the roots. Maybe that's not the best place to build a house.

Common sense does not exists in Kalifornia!

Sad. But similar situation here in Aus where not enough hazard reduction burn and people live in fire prone areas without the proper mitigation measures. New builds require a fire plan.

For too long greenie opposition to fire prevention methods to reduce fire impacts

I had a person from CA tell me logging would never work as there are to many trees to cut down.

Guess they have never seen old logging pictures of northern Wis..

Not a tree standing for miles That was done using hand cutting tools.

Modern logging is faster and easier.

Another six bodies found, for a total of 29 so far.
Climate anomaly is playing a large role in the northern California fire. Chico has had just half an inch of rain in 210 days.

quote:

Not a tree standing for miles That was done using hand cutting tools.

With modern forestry/logging techniques and management, only selected trees wouild be removed, the forests thinned and the underbrush removed.

It is not rocket science.

Tally's now up to 42 dead.What a shame all around.This should not be a time of blaming + finger pointing but of reaching solutions to a recurring problem.A vast amount of territory is already under the Fed.Besides,what is the REAL purpose of the Federal Government? To PROTECT THE PEOPLE.

Randy, I hope some positive lessons come out of this tragedy. But a well-known truth about living in the wildland interface was widely ignored by many, many homeowners here -- that of providing a defensible perimeter around one's home. This means, among other things, taking down conifers and other volatile plant species around the home, and being very smart about the landscaping you do have. It also suggests the wisdom of Hardy Plank siding and metal roofs. That said, this principle applies to those living outside of town; it is harder to insist on such measures within a municipality, but perhaps small cities and towns need to revisit the concept of defensible perimeters on the city limits.

This is from a response I made on a similar discussion in the Crater.

It would seem that at some point after so many years of this repetitive cycle, both the state and the federal government would set down together and formulate realistic management strategies, such as where a person could build a home, realistic land/forest management practices, better escape/evacuation strategies such as access into/out of the area and establishing realistic Mandatory evacuation time frames/limits.

This would include defensible perimeters, both for dwellings, either individual families or small commumities and fire retardant building materials along with realistic cleared Right of Ways for roads that would be used for evacuation, not just for entering/exiting the area.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Randy, I hope some positive lessons come out of this tragedy. But a well-known truth about living in the wildland interface was widely ignored by many, many homeowners here -- that of providing a defensible perimeter around one's home. This means, among other things, taking down conifers and other volatile plant species around the home, and being very smart about the landscaping you do have. It also suggests the wisdom of Hardy Plank siding and metal roofs. That said, this principle applies to those living outside of town; it is harder to insist on such measures within a municipality, but perhaps small cities and towns need to revisit the concept of defensible perimeters on the city limits.

Not sure what was in Malibu, but most houses here are built with stucco outside and tile roofs. Still not a guarantee.

A friend who was burned out once, rebuilt with concrete.

Another friend, less-well-acquainted with economics, favors aerogel...

If one lives in ANY hazard zone,common sense says to apply your protection to said potential problem.In my case,I live in the country at 1160 ASL,so we are not concerned by flooding.Yes here on the mountain top we do have strong winds,but with cinder block + hardy plank walls /a metal roof we are 'mostly' safe from high winds + fire (knock on wood).

Toll in Butte County up to 54 this morning, many of them elderly. That's horrible to contemplate.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
This is from a response I made on a similar discussion in the Crater.

It would seem that at some point after so many years of this repetitive cycle, both the state and the federal government would set down together and formulate realistic management strategies, such as where a person could build a home, realistic land/forest management practices, better escape/evacuation strategies such as access into/out of the area and establishing realistic Mandatory evacuation time frames/limits.

This would include defensible perimeters, both for dwellings, either individual families or small commumities and fire retardant building materials along with realistic cleared Right of Ways for roads that would be used for evacuation, not just for entering/exiting the area.

You forget, there are always politics and ideologies that come into play, when these issues come up.

Grizz

quote:

You forget, there are always politics and ideologies that come into play, when these issues come up.

And that is the most pathetic aspect of the whole situation.

We almost bought a friends home in Paradise. The wife looked at the beautiful surrounding and said no! She said this is a fire trap.
There is only one main road out of that place.
More dead, More missing. So sad.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/u...e-seven-more-n937006

Bill you are right. Death sucks to begin with but burning to death ranks right up there. Years ago I had a friend that was in a car crash + he was trapped in the car when it ignited.The witnesses said he was screaming inside the car but the flames were too intense to get close.I've thought about George many times + asked myself if I were there would I just have gone close enough to shoot him.In my mind it would be an act of kindness,but I'm sure the law would see it otherwise.I hope to never have to make that call.

I live in So Oregon right smack dab in the middle of a forest...256 LARGE Ponderosa and Juniper trees on my 2.5 acres and it's as dry as a popcorn fart all around me, the semi-permanent streams and ponds withing 100 miles of me are ALL DRIED UP...some of the reservoirs are just mud holes...I'VE CHECKED...and the Forestry Dept is burning as I speak...they're trying, but I would have waited until we had a bit more rain to light off the dog-hair lodge pole thickets and under-story. Besides with the weather conditions this area ends up under a "air stagnation advisory" as is happening right now, starting yesterday and continuing through Monday at least.

All you have to do is read AR or any other forum, DOESN'T matter the subject, and you can see the mentality of humans. The more ***ed up a person is the deeper into the woods they go and around here PEOPLE JUST BURN "stuff", it's ingrained in the peoples collective memory. EVERYONE talks about the "fires in Kalifornia"...AND the fires that wiped out many of the neighbors around them and how the just escaped by the skin of their teeth because some dum-bass SFB, wasted neighbor decided to burn some trash. I've lived here 20 years and there has been twice that number of fires within maybe 25 miles of my spread...prescribed and human caused.

It's the mindset or maybe "MINDLESS SET" of people.

Danger is everywhere...in the city it,s cars and people with guns and knives that will kill you and in the woods it's fire and SFB hunters.

Fires DON'T happen in the same place twice in a row...once one goes through it might be 20-100 years before conditions allow for another...it's POPULATIONS of ignorant humans moving out into the woods with city mentality and dreamy eyes that cause shit to happen and HOW can you stop people from eating up the advertisement BS of "Beautiful vista views" and "clean air".

The simplistic blathering of a few on a forum blaming maybe one or two "things" is absolutely NO panacea or answer to the the problems of humanity and in reality what is burned just makes it possible for the next step of the evolution of a forest...a pine forest is really a very sterile thing...not a lot of diversity and sad to say, people die because of making the wrong decision or no decision at all and put material "things" before self preservation...I've see WAY too much of that AND the effects. A humans lifetime is just TOO short to see what is really happening and we are WAY to into immediate gratification to even care what happens tomorrow.

The solution to most of the worlds problems lies in population reduction...NO POLITICIAN with knowingly address or even think about doing something IF they want to get re-elected and they will change the subject in a New York second if queried, so the problem continues and exacerbates.

You only have to open your eyes...which NO ONE wants to do, and NO ONE wants to make the hard choices.

Good Hunting

I hear that the missing count is over a thousand.

Non, I lived for 50 years in the Rogue Valley, and know whereof you speak, although I also know local fire districts have tried hard to preach the gospels of thinning, clearing and defensible space. If that means taking down most of the trees around one's "home in the woods," so be it.
Randy, the latest rumor circulating among Chico evacuees is that there are a couple of dozen kids from the Boys and Girls Club in Paradise who are among the missing. Praying this is not the case. Rain is on the way.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
I've thought about George many times + asked myself if I were there would I just have gone close enough to shoot him.In my mind it would be an act of kindness,but I'm sure the law would see it otherwise.I hope to never have to make that call.

There was a story exactly like that in the late 1950s, a truck driver was trapped in his wrecked cab and a bystander got a 38 special from his glove box and did what was indicated. I don't know whether he was convicted or not, the story fell out of the news.

I talked to my brother, who lives in Pacifica. Said there are well over 1000 missing. They might not find much of even remains, given the intensity of the fire.

Horrible!

Tom,unfortunately as we all know that times have definately changed from the 50's to today.Common sense has gone out the window while the prevailing attitude in the legal field today is to find anyone to blame.

Defensible space can only help so much.

Would you consider a 175 ft concrete apron around a structure defensible space?

Because that is the width of the Ventura Fwy in So Cal which the fires in So Cal regularly jump. 5 lanes each direction, plus full shoulders, plus extra wide center shoulder in each direction plus concrete return wall.

While less dramatic of a jump the the Tubbs fire (Northern, CA) jumped a 100 plus feet of "defensible space" called US 101.

When you have 25+ (in the case of the Tubbs fire 40+) mph winds defensible space almost becomes non-existent.

Also, there are no forests to thin in So Cal. It is open grassland with sage, manzanita, and oaks.

I wouldn't build there and I expect people who do build there to accept the risks just like those who build in places that have hurricanes every 10 years or so but some of the comments are above are based on a lack of information.

The bigger issue IMHO opinion, is not forest management (sure more logging would help) but an unwillingness to purchase the fire fighting assets. A billion dollars for a "bullet train" but an unwillingness to fund four 747 firefighting tankers.