David I respect all of your responses and can call a spade a spade. My intention was to point out that literally 90% of taxidermists don't even know what overhead is and have no business sense.

David, you have yet to answer a more important question: Why should a taxidermist who's spent his life earning a decent living and having his shop and equipment all paid for be expected to earn LESS for his work than someone with a mortgage. You comments reek of Nancy Pelosisms of "redistribution of wealth" in this country. Socialism doesn't make me any happier about your comments. In perspective, it's why Nike moved to Vietnam, Ford had their engines built in Canada, and Browning is now made in Japan. Why should I continue to pay premium prices for Brownings when they're not even made here any longer? I don't have one single customer that I kidnapped and handcuffed to bring them into my shop. Not one. If they elect to use someone who better understands the worth of his product than I do and charges half what I do, he's welcome to have all of them he can get - just don't come to me whining in two years complaining that your mount doesn't look as good as the ones I did. It's going to cost you REALLY big money for me to fix the problem then.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
David, you have yet to answer a more important question: Why should a taxidermist who's spent his life earning a decent living and having his shop and equipment all paid for be expected to earn LESS for his work than someone with a mortgage. You comments reek of Nancy Pelosisms of "redistribution of wealth" in this country. Socialism doesn't make me any happier about your comments. In perspective, it's why Nike moved to Vietnam, Ford had their engines built in Canada, and Browning is now made in Japan. Why should I continue to pay premium prices for Brownings when they're not even made here any longer? I don't have one single customer that I kidnapped and handcuffed to bring them into my shop. Not one. If they elect to use someone who better understands the worth of his product than I do and charges half what I do, he's welcome to have all of them he can get - just don't come to me whining in two years complaining that your mount doesn't look as good as the ones I did. It's going to cost you REALLY big money for me to fix the problem then.

I wasn't going to post on this again but just had to after I stopped laughing.

So now I am a Socialist for wanting an answer to a simple question. Why must a taxidermist who has lower overhead charge the same as one who has higher overhead, especially if he is able to cover his costs and bring in the income he needs to support him and his family in the quality of life that he is happy with? I have been asking this from the beginning.

I also think it is funny that you have no problem wanting to "redistribute my wealth" by wanting me to pay a higher price for the quality product I am all ready paying a lower price for.

George you are one funny man.

I didn't call you a socialist, I said it was a socialist attitude, but after reading your response, you pretty well summed it up. I'm not looking to "redistribute" anything of yours. I don't advertise and I don't kidnap customers. They come of their own volition. Do you buy a car and tell the dealership that since they're factory backed you don't expect to pay what the sticker says. Why does Donald Trump charge so much to stay in his Trump Plaza Hotel as it's paid for? Why doesn't Bill Clinton give free speaking engagements since taxpayers are already underwriting everything he has anyway? Why does a school principal draw as much wages as the President of the United States when he has no "real" job? Call your doctor as he works out of a hospital. I know Picasso's work in nowhere near what they get for it at auctions. Call your plumber and ask him why he charges so much since he has NO overhead.(Funny thing about plumbers. They ALL charge basically the same rate. Even in places with union labor, the freelancers charge union wages. Where's the indignation over that?) I charge what I consider a fair wage for services rendered. If you don't think my services are worth the price I affix to them, USE SOMEONE ELSE.

“My taxidermist charges from $300 to $400 depending on the amount of detail work you want done.â€

“Did you ever think that his out of pocket costs are not as much as yours or his profit mark-up is less and can therefore charge his customers lessâ€

“Why must a taxidermist who has lower overhead charge the same as one who has higher overheadâ€

If and Only IF the two taxidermists you are comparing are equal in every way except the overhead then I agree with you. I think you should get what you pay for, the less experienced/talented should charge less than the more experienced, talented and qualified guy.

What it sounds like and what we as taxidermist see from your statements is that you are the typical customer thinking we charge too much for our products. You have searched for a taxidermist that fits your definition of quality or expectation of quality and when someone makes a statement like James did you get offended. You have the typical response; “I guess y'all will charge with whatever you can get away with. My taxidermist does great quality work for an affordable price.†You should go back and read what James has to say because He is dead on. If you are happy with him great, but when you try to convince others that your taxidermist is quality for less, that is when you get a thread like we have here.

It is obvious the father of your taxidermist is a good businessman and has stood the test of time but, he is what we call a production taxidermist and he is working on volume to make the living he is comfortable with. From a taxidermist view point your taxidermist quality is not the same as James’.

When I hear that someone is looking for Quality or expecting a Quality mount, I think it is implying they are looking for a higher standard or the highest standard of workmanship in the industry. With higher standards comes higher prices and a taxidermist with really low prices should raise a red flag, especially one that has been in business for 20 or 30 years.

I almost forgot, your CNN money cost of living calculator showed me that it would cost me 15 to 25% more to live and do business in your area then where I live. Hmmmmm….. What does that mean? I thought you were implying that it is cheaper to live and do business where your taxidermist lives.?

I have seen this discussion on a dedicated taxidermy web site many times over the years and when I first began paid taxidermy work I just could not get my head around the "geography has nothing to do with it" statement.
I could just not fathom people paying me what another taxidermist was charging and I continued to work like a dog for a decent pay.

Well, one day it just sunk in that my fussiness & my time was indeed worth more and I raised my prices.
"I can get a pig/deer done for 1/2 that" was a common reply when I quoted jobs. My answer was, "ok - good luck with it".
" so & so charges $100 less for goats"....my reply...."yes, and you will see/smell why, have a nice day".
What annoys me most is people who, over the phone or in an email say you are over priced but have not bothered to personally come to your shop to view your work.

Sure the work slowed probably by a third and, looking back, I and my family are greatful for that.
I am not much of a business person, i shamefully admit that, but I am alot happier with my trade and income now, than I was a few years back.
Geography cant have much to do with it...I still get work from 4000klm away.

Shehuntz, your comments about the phone calls is spot on. They're simply price shoppers to begin with and I hate dealing with their ignorance. They call up, tell me that no one else does fish or crabs around here and they've heard that I will. I say yes and they ask "How much?" I tell them and I may as well have offended their mother, "MAN, that's way too much." Just as soon as I hear that, I simply hang up. That conversation has already cost me too much in shop time.

Just so you know my taxidermist has won the WASCO award for lion & wildebeest in the past. So his lower prices have nothing to do with the high quality he is able to produce. As in any industry, a higher price does not automatically mean higher quality.

The WASCO Most Artistic Entry Award is presented to the most artistic piece in a taxidermy competition. The winner is chosen collectively by all of the judges from the entire competition. WASCO Award winners receive a polished acrylic award and a gift certificate from WASCO (Wildlife Artist Supply Company). The following taxidermists have been recognized by their peers for their innovation, skill, artistic talent and high quality.

Darrell McMicken, Cartersville, GA. Lion and Wildebeast
July 1, Georgia Taxidermist Association

The general work on his web site is fairly well done but it is production work, OK but not top notch award winning "stuff." Lots of taxidermists will pick a pet project and really give it that extra time and effort so as to compete or advertize with it. The African taxidermists esp. are good using this business tool. The work 99% of thier customers will recieve is and always will be what it is so those taxidermists can make money at it for what they charge. Production work, OK and clean but not ribbon work. David your taxidermist is NOT making a steady decent profit or paying qualified help top wages on what you say he charges if he is consistantly producing ribbon quailty work. He may of inherited money or have zero overhead, or other income money or be in heavy credit debt otherwise, I do not know, but I do know this business and what its basic costs are and what it takes to make a profit and what it takes to win blue ribbons; I have been in this taxidermist business full time since 1970. So what do CPA's make an hour in your area? I am sure now it must be about 25% lower than my area. Right?

First, I think everyone got their panties in a wad over some guy in Georgia who is charging around $400 for a deer head. David has a taxidermist who works a little cheaper, so what?

I charge $490 for deer, $800 for elk. My buddy down the road charges $700 for deer and $1,200 for elk. He has over $30,000 in work which has not been picked-up. I have $0. There are all kinds of reasons why some guys are charging what they do. I can also drive to the suppliers and pick-up what I need and not incur shipping charges. That saves up to $30(mistake should be $20) per deer, $70 for elk and over $200 on many lifesizes.

MC - I take it your time and fuel are free........I don't know where fellow taxidermists business sense is.

M C you need to update your website, it states 470.00 for Deer.

I would also like to know how do you save $30.00 on shipping per deer?

quote:

Originally posted by rjrtaxidermy:
My intention was to point out that literally 90% of taxidermists don't even know what overhead is and have no business sense.

They learned that from gunsmiths.

Coues- I spent $40 in fuel and it took me 2 hours to pick up 1 18' trailer load of forms. (My wife's sister lives in the same area so we do lunch and that alone is worth something- keeping the wife happy) Since I had the supplier ship all forms to the distribution center uncut then I save hours and material not piecing them back together. I think the last load I picked-up was about $10,000 or so. Of course I shouldn't have to point that out because you do the same with your "taxidermists business sense". (It sure is nice picking-up an un-cut giraffe pedestal) Any more degrading remarks?

JP- Thanks for the notice, but the webdesigner (friend) has it scheduled to update on Sept 1. (I interpret your pointing this out as a friendly gesture and I apologize for the poor photos on the site, they are just poor quality photos taken in the shop with a cheap camera) Anyway, I meant to type $20, but typed $30. I figure the usual supplier charged around $45 to ship 3 forms in a box (large mule deer) and then when you figure the cost of shipping for clays, eyes, backers, adhesive (I use my own mixture), etc. I also can get a 10% discount from a certain supplier for walk-in, so there is another $4.50 on a deer and $14.00 on a buffalo. I figured it is around $20.

Quality mounts are what draws in customers for a solid business. If a taxidermist isn't busy then he needs to analyze his business. Is he too expensive or too cheap? Is his quality lacking or does he have poor people skills? Dirty shop? Too long on the turn--around? You guys can rip me, but I am comfortable with how I do business and the income I provide for my family. I know I am $50-100 cheaper than what I can charge, but I don't have $30,000 worth of unclaimed work that has been sitting in my shop. Judging by the referrals, return clients, out-of-state clients (arn't there any good taxidermists in NY, VA, MS, CO, NM, KS, ID, WY, NV, CA, TX, ME, WA, etc.) *-SARCASM INTENDED- There are obviously great taxidermists in every state I think others are happy with what I turn out. (Why do guys from New Mexico or New York ship me their Bighorns or their safari animals only to have me charge shipping back to their places? hhhmmmmmm)

MC- Sounds like you put a lot of thought into your business. Thats great! Are you a member of your state taxidermy association and have you ever competed? Just curious. By no means did I intend to offend you. Just so many taxidermists are trying to keep our business in the dark ages vs. the true profession it is. Keep up the good work.

I admit I was taken back by your response, but I appreciate you straightening it out. I am a member of the Utah Taxidermist Association. I have competed, but only pull customer's mounts off the wall and take them to the show. I took one best in category, but most of my mounts don't do so well because I really don't care about flashlights and ego. I get a kick out of the guy who spends 40 extra hours to compete and then passes that off as "customer quality". If I wanted to get rich, I wouldn't be a taxidermist.

Dog- I never said I could get $700 for a mount. You sure have provided a lot of good input on this topic. Are you always this negative or is it just an internet bravado? The states post was meant as a joke, as of course there are great taxidermists in every state . But I have had repeat customers from NY, KS, MS, NM, ID, WY, CO, NV, and CA. I can't prove it to you. If you read my response to JP you would see I already addressed my poor photo taking ability.

I tell everyone the same thing, go look at the work, meet the taxidermist, then decide if you want him to make the piece of artwork which will hang in your house for the next 40 years. Price should be the last thing a guy considers. One taxidermist in my valley DPs everything and he charges $750 for junk work. He is still busy. How or why remains a mystery. Maybe people think that since the price is so high that it must be great, yet I have remounted 2 or 3 of his deer per year.

MC the must not have any good ones in Utah either according to you. How $40 in gas for an 18 foot trailer full of forms saved you $30 PER DEER sounds like there aren't many good mathematicians there either. And please don't use that analogy about out of state hunters. There are cheapskates in every state as well. I'm delighted they leave their mounts with you or any other taxidermist on location. I don't need or want my freezers full and since I charge an honest wage for work completed, I don't need to scrounge up cheap clients. You can have them all.

Goodness George, do you actually read the posts or are you just selective reading. I already addressed both topics. One was mistyped and should have been $20 and the states post was a sarcastic joke that didn't play in the written word.

I guess they are cheap, to have their animal shipped to me, then pay the shipping cost back to them. I know they can get the work done at home cheaper and just as well, but they know me and trust what they are getting.

Did I miss your price for a deer??

Well, first off, your addressing them as typos didn't get you off the hook. You know you CAN correct your postings???

Secondly, out of state hunters often don't have a clue as to how to prep a hide to take back with them and not that many outfitters offer viable services to assist that. Now with airlines charging every higher "antler" or "perishable hide" fees. it IS smarter to leave it with a local guy. I encourage my hunters to find a local guy and pay him to prep the hide, send it to may tannery and send me the bill. My tannery will handle it from there on out.

My prices are CLOSE to yours, so that wasn't an issue though you are on the low side. We don't get the BIG big game like you do, so our prices are higher on those as well.

George, I hate it when someone posts something and later it is quoted, then the first post is edited and everyone else following along is confused, unless it is an error which must be corrected. That sounded confusing in itself.

As for the out of state issue, I honestly get return clients from out of state who send me all their taxidermy, not just what they harvest in Utah. For example, a group of guys in New Mexico send me thier animals they harvest in New Mexico and around the world. While I appreciate their work, why do they do it? It is far more expensive with the shipping costs. I know there are competent taxidermists in New Mexico. I have a dozen or so guys from out of state who do this, so it isn't all just getting work through an outfitter or out-of-state hunters in Utah.

Bottom line is every industry has those who charge more or less to sew up a cut, fix your radiator, change a tire, or sell you a rifle. The wonderful world of business. There are deals to be found in every industry.

Best of luck to everyone this fall.

MC, you know David ended up stepping aside while us "good guys" started sniping at one another. Both of us seem to be making a living charging an honest wage, but according to David, since the forms only cost us $125 for supplies and we're established, we shouldn't be charging over $250 to mount deer. One thing for sure, none of us got "here" without paying a helluva price in time and labor and none of us got clientele like we have now in the first few years of working at it. Why SHOULDN'T we be able to reap our rewards like the rest of the capitalist world out there?

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Those guys doing 200 deer heads a year for under $400 can keep it. I'd rather do 50 deerheads at $550. Work smarter not harder.

Let's see 200 heads at $400.00 = $80,000.00
50 heads at $550.00 = $27,500.00

I don't know whats smarter but the hard working guy can sure afford to eat a lot better than the smart guy.

I know if it were me I would want the hardworking guy running my business!

So a taxidermist that can't do math, might not be the one I want either.

I have a good taxidermist in Louis Ray of Ray's taxidermy in Casper, Wyoming. He's honest, fair, and in his 70's. He's probably done more of every animal than all the rest of the taxidermist in Wyoming put together.

He charges reasonable rates, does excellent work, and plays by the 1 year maximum Wyoming law, can't beat that!

Should I say it? oh well, Louis Ray does OK taxidermy that looks exactly like the mounts he was doing in the early 60's and yes lots of it looks pretty good esp. to an untrained eye. He does not always get his work done in a year; he has racks and horns in there to be mounted that are covered over in cob webs. His shop looks like it was left abandoned in the 50's. People like him and he has a loyal following. He IS a fair, honest and GREAT GUY but high quality modern taxidermy is not what he charges for or what he produces; he will tell you this. Watch out for his pet rattle snakes.

Rather B Huntin, see what you started.

James I hate to piss in your wheaties, but I hav seen the photos on your website and while your very good, your antelope aren't any different than Louis Rays are.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
MC, you know David ended up stepping aside while us "good guys" started sniping at one another. Both of us seem to be making a living charging an honest wage, but according to David, since the forms only cost us $125 for supplies and we're established, we shouldn't be charging over $250 to mount deer. One thing for sure, none of us got "here" without paying a helluva price in time and labor and none of us got clientele like we have now in the first few years of working at it. Why SHOULDN'T we be able to reap our rewards like the rest of the capitalist world out there?

George who ever said you were a good guy, you start more shit on these boards and pick on more people for your own biased opionons than anyone else.

The only people I ever pick on are uppety bowhunters!

D99, who rang your bell? I didn't say anything at all to you, but I've had several PMs from other here who wonder who you are and if you can find your ass with both hands. One of them was from an EXCEPTIONAL taxidermist who advised me that you're always poking others with smartassed remarks. You're not on my Christmas card list and I won't ever invite you to sit down for a meal, so because someone put itching powder in your hemmorhoid cream doesn't mean I had anything to do with it. No one told me that God had died and left you in charge.

D99 George is right on about you. There is a real high quality producing taxidermist in Casper Wyoming, he is Mark Wormus and he operates Swann Studios but please stay with Ray; I don't want Mark mad at me.

George,

Your always whining about everyone else, I could care less if you like me or not. In the case of this website you go out of your way to pick on people. Maybe your not really like that in real life, but..... maybe you are. Just an observation from someone who sees a lot of eye poking coming from your way.

James, I also saw the impala on your website and it is exceptional. I am not one to suger coat anything, and I am a straight shooter. That impala is better than anything I have ever seen in Rays studio, and better than anything I have on my wall. Maybe it's a photography problem, but your sage goats aren't any different than the ones Louis Ray did I have hanging on my wall. And after a lifetime of painting, doing photography, and being in the wilderness around animals I can honestly say your sculpture is excellent.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcatcher223:

quote:

Originally posted by MC:
(arn't there any good taxidermists in NY, VA, MS, CO, NM, KS, ID, WY, NV, CA, TX, ME, WA, etc.)

You can't be serious.

Honestly...after looking at your deer mounts, you couldn't command $700 for a mount. Sorry, but that is reality.

Sage I thought your stuff was great! And I read in the sarcasim there.

Here's a couple whitetails....one mounted in Wisconsin about six years ago for $350 and one mounted here in Nebraska this year for $400 flat.

I like them both!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I like them both!

And that's all that matters, not taxidermy competitions, outside opionons, or random observances by folks you don't know on the other side of the planet.

Not bad for $750, that's for sure.

Ahh, the taxidermy pissing contest.

Pure entertainment!

D99, there you go again inciting an issue. Those taxidermist who do compete (I never compete above my state show level just to keep them solvent. Delaware seldom has over 20 mounts, so that's hardly a viable "competition".) are very VERY protective of their achievements.

I actually do the same thing MC does with that level of competition, but the implications to others was that he could "take it right off the wall and win big in a competition". Dogcatcher was putting into perspective.

There are many competitions and dozens of categories within those competitions trying to draw people to enter and thereby make some money for the host of the competition. Many states have "commercial" divisions (one where the judge can't use a magnifier or light or even get closer than 5 feet to a mount) and "amateur" division(one probably most misused by those hungry to be able to claim to have won a ribbon.)

BTW, the Breakthrough Award by definition, has nothing to do with quality taxidermy work but rather by "artistic interpretation". I've seen it won by mounts that had no ribbons on them at all and at the recent regional in Roxboro, NC, I think it went to a second place ribbon winner.

Competitions are ego driven, obviously, but they're still the most important learning tool we have available in the industry. Some people use them so they can put "Award winning taxidermist" on their business cards and brochures. Others just throw them in a box. But someone who wins National Champion or World Champion is certainly going to be miffed by anyone who says he can win with a mount right off the wall.

George I don't know that I agree with you on the breakthrough award. The WASCO is for artistic representation as you surely know. The breakthrough is the judges choice best of show, true not always the highest scoring piece, but all the breakthrough awards i've seen at local state shows were far superior in quality than all the other mounts and not decided solely on artistic representation. But in my short, short 5 year experience, it's always been a masters level piece that wins it.

I did completely commit a huge mistake in posting that my piece was a best of show. My mount was best of category, professional division. We have 3 divisions, all gone over with a light. Masters, professionals, and novice. We usually have 100-140 pieces entered in our state competition.

As for shows, I agree that they are a great way for taxidermists to learn new methods and get out of their stylistic ruts. That is why I compete. It isn't to satisfy me, but to improve me and my customers' work.

rj, you are correct. I was confusing the WASCO with the Breakthrough. IT'S THE WASCO that goes to the Most Artistic regardless of ribbon or even if it has one. The Breakthrough Award goes to the highest scoring piece at the show or if tied, to the one picked as Judges Choice Best in Show. I run the Delaware Show and was trying to think ahead of myself. Sorry.

I thought maybe you mixed them up, ha. I have seen it go to pieces that weren't the highest score. Like for instance a div. of exellence duck that scores a 93 over a livefize mammal in the same div. that scores a 92, but there's more wotk involved in the mammal with large base and habitat work. By the way, have you seen Fred b's lifesize aoudad that has taken 3 breakthroughs this year? Quite an amazing piece. And not to mention his first large lifesize ever. I'd like to get down to the maryland show sometime.

You guys are pretty cuthroat, sounds about like the First Class Petty Officer Mess in the Navy. Everyone wants more money, everyone wants more promotions, and snubbing the next guy even if it means a little unsportsmanlike conduct is just yoru cup of tea.

I think the way you speak of eachother and treat eachother is appauling, but it's not different than any other business.

I appreciate what you guys do, for some it's an art, for some it's a trade. You really ought to start a trade guild like the custom knifemakers and gunmakers have.

Just don't see the need for the sniping. I wonder how much time you guys spend sniping at eachother when you could be working on mounts, and making money.