I just love these "I'm a pure hunter and you're just a rich slob who can only hunt following a guide because you can't hack it on your own" threads. These threads are almost as stupid as those posted who whine because someone shot an easy trophy the first day of the hunt without "suffering" enough to suit their guidelines for effort.

But you know what fellows there are a few facts of life you will eventually learn or at least recognize when you eventually trip over them. Geography, age and limited time work against most of us.

Not everyone lives in good hunting areas...does this mean if I want to hunt moose in Alaska I need to move there to really "experience" it or at the very least I guess you would expect someone to learn to fly a Bush plane, lease a plane for a couple of weeks, buy tents, etc and spend a couple of weeks scouting before the season begins and then go hunting where you of course do the cooking, the packing, the boning etc ...not to bad I guess if you can afford the expense plus the time off work and if your wife is understanding..remember no help! Too extreme an example how about a "simple" elk trip.....buy and train a couple of horses, take care of them year round, buy a truck & trailer to haul them in, all the tents and gear and them off you go to a western state to hunt on public land (no private land for you remember you're independent) of course you need to go a couple of weeks early to confirm the scouting trip you took off work during the summer and you don't mind that some mindless idiots camp near you and spend most of their time drinking. Hell you might even see an elk closer than 1000 yards but you're doing it the "right way"....no help!

How about another. You live close enough to good country and have some friends with land that allow you to hunt. You spend some time there each year to scout and always help out by doing what you can to be a good guest. You've hunted there at least 10 days each year for 4 years and have never fired a shot. Close a couple of times but something always happened. Wonder of wonders!!! The first hour of the 5th year you are walking into a basin that you've scounted and while you stop to check your GPS unit a 30" mule deer follows a doe into the open at 50 yards and he's so much in love he doesn't notice you.....I'd shoot the sob and never think I didn't earn him but I guess most of you would just say "shoo" and move on because it wasn't "earned".

I guess I'm one of the few that hunts that isn't younger than 40 (or 50 and lately 60), isn't as fit as a marathoner, doesn't have a mid-6 figure annual income, can't take unlimited time from work, don't have a wife and family that doesn't mind I'm gone for weeks at a time several times a year and doesn't live in game-rich areas.

Well I've been over the mountain and back and I've "paid the price" many times over so please ... if you're going to preach keep it down.....I'm the fellow quietly snoring in the back row paitiently waiting for my guide to pick me up.

Boy do I feel better now.....

Well boy george,its sounds to me like you're the asshole doing the preaching.

Well spoken DB,
But I think trying to educate people that dont understand is wasted effort- just my personal experience coming with age- eh wisdom.
So I think to earn whatever you want to wrestle from mother nature,the right way-you just have to chew nails for a few months,leave a regular job ,learn to walk barefoot in 2 feet snow and stay young.
sheephunter

DB, yup!

RMK--

Is it cold where you are (20 and 30+ below here the last couple of nights)? I guess enduring this weather year 'round doesn't even earn us the right to poke a little fun. Oh well.

Cold spells always make a peculiar sound around Bozeman. Can you hear it?



It's the sound of Californians packing.

Bill,



As I said on the other thread, this is not about preaching rather soul searching and brain wracking some of those very issues you have mentioned.



I started deer stalking from "cold" with no family or friends to help nor do we have free public hunting like you guys do.. Therefore ,on my very first hunt I booked with a guy to:

A] Gain access to some hunting land and

B] to learn from him.



After checking I could hold a half decent group on a target in the morning, we went out in the late afternoon to one of his pre positioned lean-to-tree stands. We stopped the vehicle 200 yards or so short and in quiet tones he briefed me. We then walked quietly to the stand where he gave me a few further instructions before he left to go back to the truck. Basically, I was told to keep quiet and stay in the stand...that at last light a group of fallow deer would appear on a track to the right and file across me about 60 yards out. At the rear of the group would be the prickets (spikers) and I was to shoot the last one of these. Well thats exactly what happened and I shot my first deer! I remember thinking this deer stalking was dead easy!



In slightly different circumstances, I could have taken a really good buck from that group (ie had I opened my cheque book ahead of time)but would that have been a legitimate trophy? A great memento, yes but a trophy? What had I personally contributed to that hunt? Bugger all, i think is the honest answer....



So I realise all your good reasons for using a guide simply because they apply to me too, but by the same token I want my future success (or lack of it) to be primarily down to my hunting skills (or lack of them!)... I simply don't want to be a "collector"...Catch 22 I guess?



regards,



Pete

You needed to get that off your chest Bill, eh...

I don't have a problem with what you are saying in the least. After all, you are only stating the sad facts, that the realities of life don't offer all of us the same "natural" opportunities. So what is a person to do, who has not been dealt the hand he would have liked?? Give up hunting and take up horticulture, or make the best of it given the circumstances?? I'm with you on this one, so don't feel left all by yourself.

- mike

DB Bill,

Shoot! I thought the reason they had guides and outfitters was so guys could go huntin'.

Rich Elliott

Locally I have recieved access to some private land and next year will probably hunt with a freind in Missouri on some land he has permission to hunt on. But if I ever go to Alaska I will be on guided hunts. I feel that using a guide increases your chances but in many cases you still have to cover the ground make the shot and depending on the services you've hired take care of the kill.

It makes sense to use a guide where you have no opportunity to do your own scouting is basically what I'm saying. I'm sure we would all enjoy taking several months off and going to our preferred hunting area and scouting out the animal we want. But life doesn't allow that so we use guides.

We have a lot of different topics mixed up here without defining terms. For me it boils down to the risk and effort that the hunter chooses to take on and whether it is Trophy hunting or not. A huner contracting with a guide in AK will most likely have to put out a lot of effort and take a fair amount of risk to be successful.If the terrain is rough and the weather potentially bad, there is little difference between doing it on your own and having a guide.

The type of hunting that I would never undertake, and that I should be banned from this site for criticizing, is Trophy Hunting of any kind. Now, be kind, my father was an Aldo Leopold trained Wildlife Biologist and I was taught at a very early age that hunting is wildlife management. The ethical hunter mimics the predator, thereby culling out the smaller and weaker in the herd. Dropping the biggest, best and most beautiful out of the gene pool is not a sustainable acvtivity.

I would respectfully disagree about the "sustainability" issue in your post. It is trophy hunting (well managed) and competition for hunting dollars that has improved the trophy quality of the American herd, not natural evolution. Also, you ignore the other half of the genetic contribution: does which carry the necessary antler genes as well. To maintain big buck numbers you have to quit shooting the 2 to 4 year olds which many otherwise competent hunters mistake for inferior mature deer. This sort of proper field judging is one of the most valuable contributions a good guide makes to the effort and I bet a lot of the naysayers have killed their share of immature bucks in the name of "good sportsmanship".

Well DB it seems that a lot of posters are sometimes more armchair than real. Hence the BS that follows.
Also what is that old saying, �the young use there back and as you grow older you use the brain�.
These posters will start using the brain in 20-50 years.
Also every rifle they own shoots .5 groups at 300 yards so why get closer.
It is mostly BS.
Another of the over 50 club
Don

I like guided hunts for many reasons.



While I can deer hunt three months of the year and scout my area for the rest I cannot do that for elk, antelope, moose, etc if I want to hunt them. I only get so much time off of work and as a stranger in another state, I don't see it happening where everyone will just allow such a stranger access to their land to hunt.



Some places make it law that a non-resident must hire a guide.



In a guided hunt I am paying for access to game not available in my home area and the guide's time to pre-scout and take me to likely areas where such game will be found. Not such a bad deal after all.



If I lived in elk country and had access to property, no, I would not need a guide. Some of you are living in better places than others so you have an advantage.



As far as killing the sick and weak, not for my table I won't and not on a guided hunt.

Sometimes I throw a good steak on the grill and sometimes I go to a good resturant. In either case I enjoy the meal.

Jeff

Well said.

mikea....you call that cold! I spent 3 1/2 years in Alaska and took my first moose at 45 below zero...amazing how fast a moose hide can freeze as stiff (and bigger) than a 4'x8' piece of plywood. I also managed to spend at least 2 weeks each winter, courtesy of Uncle Sam, living in tents in the bush....wheee was that fun when the temp dropped and the wind came up.

I tend to think of a guide or PH more as a companion and teacher rather than a servant and try to learn something every trip I make but the sad truth is for most hunts unless you have the equipment and access to the right infra-structure the hunt probably won't be sucessful (pick your own criteria for sucess) and this goes from something as simple as prarie dog shooting (portable shooting table, shade, trespass permit) thru duck hunting (decoys, maybe a boat, and certainly a dog) up to hunting in Africa and all the equipment, local knowledge, adminsitrative skills (and language skills) needed to even begin hunting.

I can and have field dressed and rough butchered my own game, I can and have set up a good camp and am more than a reasonable camp cook, I can spot game, estimate distance and am an adequate tracker and I am a good and careful shot but no longer feel the need to demonstrate these skills just to hunt. I enjoy eating a meal someone else cooked and being warmed by a fire someone else built and I enjoy sleeping in a warm and comfortable bed and I enjoy a daily shower---- I don't need all of these to hunt but I've also found you don't need to be rough it to be a hunter.

I'm a different hunter now than I was at 12 when my Dad, Uncle and Grandfather were my "guides" .

I'm a different hunter now than I was at 20 when I joined the USAF and began to hunt in other locations with new friends who were my "guides" as they were the local experts.

I'm a different hunter now than I was in my late 20's when I was my Dad's "guide" in Alaska where I "guided" him to a nice moose, several caribou and both a black and brown bear..he was still a better woodsman than I was but I was the "guide" because I knew the territory and had the local knowledge and right equipment.

It's easy to be the "local expert" who takes a nice deer or two each year and probably takes an elk most years all within easy driving distance of home but does that really make you more of a hunter than someone who books a 2-week hunt with a guide and does all the climbing, walking, waiting and shooting required to be sucessful.

The only way I can relate to the subject is to tell how I do it, good, bad, or ugly. ----- I have hunted Deer for years, killed hundreds, all on my own, and I have a good collection of heads I am quite proud of. I Elk hunt every year in Colorado, paying a trespass fee to a rancher to cross his land to hunt BLM ground on my own, along with my son, grandson and group of buddies. We are quite successful overall killing the same animals the outfitters would hope to guide you too, with the occasional 6 X 6, or 7 X 7, but mostly 5 X 5's, 4 X 4's and cows when the extra tags are available. ----- When I go to Alaska or Canada I hire a guide. I have taken the big Brown Bear with a personal friend as guide on a payback hunt. I have taken the big Moose, several Caribou, and had the privilege to miss two huge Wolfes, on regular hired hunts. I don't regret one penny spent on the Alaska hunts, considering it the prudent way to hunt dangerous country and be successful. ----- I plan to hunt Africa this year or next for Cape Buffalo with an outfitter and I have spent two years researching for that purpose. I will make a decision soon, particularly if I hunt this year. Well that is the way I do it, right or wrong. Probably in the truth be known, I really enjoy the reloading, tweaking bigger and better rifles getting ready as much as the actual hunt. Good shooting.

The only way I can relate to the subject is to tell how I do it, good, bad, or ugly. ----- I have hunted Deer for years, killed hundreds, all on my own, and I have a good collection of heads I am quite proud of. I Elk hunt every year in Colorado, paying a trespass fee to a rancher to cross his land to hunt BLM ground on my own, along with my son, grandson and group of buddies. We are quite successful overall killing the same animals the outfitters would hope to guide you too, with the occasional 6 X 6, or 7 X 7, but mostly 5 X 5's, 4 X 4's and cows when the extra tags are available. ----- When I go to Alaska or Canada I hire a guide. I have taken the big Brown Bear with a personal friend as guide on a payback hunt. I have taken the big Moose, several Caribou, and had the privilege to miss two huge Wolfes, on regular hired hunts. I don't regret one penny spent on the Alaska hunts, considering it the prudent way to hunt dangerous country and be successful. ----- I plan to hunt Africa this year or next for Cape Buffalo with an outfitter and I have spent two years researching for that purpose. I will make a decision soon, particularly if I hunt this year. Well that is the way I do it, right or wrong. Probably if the truth be known, I really enjoy the reloading, tweaking bigger and better rifles getting ready as much as the actual hunt. Good shooting.

Bill,

-45 is cold. The coldest I've seen it in MT is -40, but I spent a few yrs out of state in school, etc. -35 is the coldest I've seen in a long time; my truck certainly agreed!

Living close to the game you enjoy might not make you a better hunter, but it certainly makes you a lucky one!

I appreciate a prepared meal, but don't take the same pride in it as if I had made it myself. I personally have never taken a "guided" hunt, though others have certainly helped me. While I love not mixing money with my hunts, I definately will hire a guide when I hunt AK, or anywhere else beyond my scope of reasonable abilities. Actually, I will likely go with friends in the area, but failing this I would not hesitate to hire a guide.

Argue as we might, a true trophy cannot be bought, it must be earned. The average mudpuddle is deep enough to know this, and I'm sure we all do as well. What constitutes "earning" a trophy is of course subjective--a 20 yr old USAF man might cover more ground than an 80 yr old, and each will exert themselves proportionately. Similarily, a "trophy" is also subjective and, to me, is relative the the amount of work or ability it required to harvest.

I must admit that I am tired of gunwriters thumping their chests about their great hunting prowess when on guided private land hunts. Some of my favorite lines are:

"After an exhausting 5 mile ride on horseback..." After 5 miles on foot, I am ready to get started hunting. What kind of pampered fellows are these?

"From the ranch house, we could see the ridge we would be hunting..." Not much of a wilderness adventure I guess.

"We were careful not to disturb the game where they bedded during the day because we did not want to scare them off the ranch..." I will let that one speak for itself.

Blah, blah, blah...And there I was, crawling on my belly for 6 miles to get close to the buck, after tracking him for 4 days, if you don't hunt like me, you suck... blah, blah, blah...

What is it about us that makes us even care what others think about the way we hunt? Isn't it enough that we're happy with it?

Wait, there it is, the definition of a good hunt!

***One that YOU are happy with.***

Wow what a concept!

Hmm, I wonder what prompted this thread??

I have to admit that since joining ARF that I find myself being much less critical in my way of viewing guided hunting. There are a lot of different situations and variables, too many to use the term "guided hunt" in such a blanket statement. However I still feel that many times it (guided hunting) goes too far and tends to take away from the hunting experience as a whole. Ive not used a guide to date, but under some circumstances it would be the only recourse I would consider. For instance a true "once in a lifetime" hunt that will never again be done and requires years of planning and saving. But on the other hand, some "guided hunts" Ive read about make me want to "toss MY cookies" and dont even qualify as hunting.

But I would still rather sit at a table and disguss hunting over a good beer with a canned hunter than an anti-hunter. And personally, I like making my own fires.

Which ever road you take to your hunting grounds, enjoy and maybe Ill see you there!