The fact that the total reported claims by insurance companies totals about 2,500 does not mean that was the total deer killed by motor vehicles. If a driver does not have comprehensive insurance covarage, then they have nothing to "claim". Further, there are unfortanately alot of people with older cars who just dont carry this type of insurance. Also remember alot of people unfortanately dont carry any insurance on their car. So relative to your argument, your given figure by the insurance companies is not any where near the accurate total of deer killed in Pennsylvania by vehicles. I'm not interested in arguing with anyone over this, but your position now is in question also.

R.........I meant the Pennsyvania insurance numbers verses what probably really happened., nothing else meant.

Well I don't have any problem with any of this. Africa ain't the USA and I don't think anybody was particularly rude. Perhaps skeptical and ready to say it, but what the hey, I wouldn't have claimed 50,000 plus road kill deer for Georgia because I think it's well above that. Gads, I just moved away from the most suicidal deer population in America! What was I thinkin'? Legal or not there is one helluva lot of culling of game herds in this country, I don't doubt Ed's story, nor am I interested in pinning his ears back on minutae. Takes a bit of character to admit a mistake in front of the known universe.

The name Bell keeps bouncing around in my head for some reason... Of course that's an African tale.

Hey Ed, If I missed a portion of your posts, bear with me. The figures you quoted seem a bit conservative to me. Unlike some of the folks who are quick to say someone is pulling a "Clinton" simply because they have not seen it for themselves, I have seen and been in amongst HUGE herds or Southeastern Whitetails too.

Let me guess the NC property you were talking about is East or Southeast of Greenville? Pretty close??

At one time 30+ years ago, it was quite easy to see 2000-5000(conservatively) Whitetails at dusk while crossing Highway 172(I think that is the number) which cuts across Camp LeJeune. Have no idea at all if the public can cut across it now or not with all the Terrorism mess. But "at that time" the quantity of Deer was just amazing to me.

Years pass and I found myself and a buddy in a road-side country store in the SC Lowcountry. It was raining and we had been out scouting the area. Stopped in the store and got a couple of drinks. Talked with the Owner and he noticed the camouflage. He asked if we were Deer Hunters? Next question from him was, "Would ya'll consider killing some of the Deer on my property for me?"

Come to find out he had an old Plantation that adjoined the Santee-Cooper Wildlife Refuge. The Deer were really working over his Beans and the SC Wildlife folks issued him (I believe) 500 Doe Tags each year. Now, that was for just one of many Plantations about 20 years ago. Plus during the Season, his hunters could legally kill all the Bucks they saw, which is still true today.

The main difference between back then and today is the SC Wildlife Dept has changed the rules of engagement a bit. On three of the old Plantations I have access to, they have issued Predation Permits which allows unlimited Deer killing, day or night, 365 days a year, Doe or Bucks.

So, there is no telling how many "other Plantations" have the same Permits. And for the doubters, the SC Deer Herd continues to grow each year.

Ed if you were in Eastern or Southeastern NC (or SC), we didn't miss each other by much.

[ 12-04-2003, 17:56: Message edited by: Hot Core ]

Your silence in regards to my question speaks volumes about the legality of your activities. Still waiting for a response.

i think you guys should cut EO some slack, you guys are nitpicking about things that don't even matter. The man admitted he goofed and was wrong, what more can you ask of someone

Okay you're right he comes here to Montana and possibly blantantly breaks the law. Poaches the sh!t out of our deer in the name of game manangement culling. Then brags about how he's killed 5000 deer in 10 years of which apparently some are Montana deer and I'm supposed to just blow it off. You know he's just a good ol' boy trying to improve the herd. How about we send him down to Utah and let him shoot/poach a few hundred does and inferior bucks along the Wasatch Front?

[ 12-04-2003, 21:54: Message edited by: Big Sky ]

Just let special ed go with his bullshit story and tell it however he likes. Ed hasn't poached any deer in montana,he was just grabbing at straws,in an effort to try and add credibility to his fairy tale. Ed's only down fall,is he doesn't have a good enough memory to lie as much as he does. He can't keep his lies straight.

[ 12-05-2003, 02:38: Message edited by: RMK ]

RMK

OK, how about back to the original topic? It is quite obvious that the Interbond is head and shoulders above the SST for big game usage. Has any one seen any significant differences in their terminal performance on deer-size game if the velocities are kept below 3000 fps (using cartridges based on the -08 and -06 cases)?

Thunderstick, maybe you missed this reply further up the thread. Rather then type in a new answer I just moved it up for you. Its based soley on the 30/06 cartridge. Hope this helps.

The Hornady SST bullets are a similiar type of design as the ballistic tip bullets. The jacket is not bonded to the lead core, it uses the interlock design which has been a Hornady trademark for a long time now. They will, or at least have been holding together better then the Ballistic tips for me. However they are not bonded, check the price and that becomes clear!

The Interbond bullet which on the surface appear to be the same are actually a completely different bullet inside. The Interbond bullet is actually a flux bonded core holding the jacket to the lead core preventing seperation. This is the same or similiar technology to the Swift A frame bullets bonding process. The difference between the two bullets would be like comparing a 2X4 piece of wood to a 2X4 piece of steel. They both have the same shape but are not the same material or construction.

Many of my hunters choose to hunt with me in Africa without the need of bringing a rifle. Many will travel to other parts of Africa or Europe before or after the hunt and don't want the burden of having to drag a rifle around with them. Rifles after all don't travel well across many international borders. Because of this my rifles are used by quite a few of my hunters.

This past season My 30/06 was used with 165 grain interbond bullets by Hornady. There were 2 dozen big game animals killed with that combination. Animals as large a blue wildebeast which are considered to be the toughest plains game animal to drop on the shot, and Zebra and Gemsbok which also have reputations for their toughness. Kudu were also taken but they don't take much power to fold up compared to the others. Over all I recovered a single bullet from all those animals. The penetration from a tiny underpowered little 30/06 with 165 grain bullets was quite impressive. There is not a Nosler ballistic tip or Hornady SST or any standard construction bullet that would have ever produced repeatable performance like that!

I was actually a bit dissapointed that I had so few recovered from all those animals. I expected to weigh and confirm their retained weight. However the exit wounds were clearly showing massive expansion and the retained weight to drive them through the exit side skin.



Exit holes like this would make blood tracking easy. However with length wise penetrations like this Gemsbok had they usually fall to the ground without a step.

Make no mistake the Bonded core bullets like Accubond, Interbond, and Scirracco are not the same bullet that a Ballistic tip and SST bullet are. This is a whole new ball game of projectile technology! I will not likely use anything but the Hornady 165 grain interbond bullets in my 30/06. At least not until something much better comes along. My hunters using this rifle have made the comment that its the best rifle they ever used and when they get home they want to build one just like it.

It's not the gun that is so wonderful, it's the Interbond bullets!

They are what turn it into a super high performace hunting machine. I also shot an Elk this past season with the same rifle and bullet. As you can see from the photo the bullet is lodged under the skin at the point of the shoulder. The recovered bullet was 85% retained weight. This bull was near 1000 pounds est. weight. All from that old and boring 30/06 with the puny 165 grain slow poke 2900fps bullet. It's not the cartridge folks, it's the placement and the bullet you shoot!



[ 12-05-2003, 19:17: Message edited by: JJHACK ]

I only know of one fellow, that I keep in touch with on a regular basis, that was more than a little disappointed with the 130gr .277 Interbond.
Seems like it was a bit too tough to use on the Antelope he shot with his 270WSM.
I know he visits this forum but doesn't post much, maybe he will if he sees this.

JJ:

What are you using for a loading? I have tried the 150 and 165 grain IBs in .308 and .30-06 and have yet to find a load that will shoot 1 MOA. In the rifles that I shoot, that is poor accuracy. I emailed Hornady for loading tips particular to the IB (velocity levels, seating depths, etc), but received diddly-squat for a reply.

4350 as I recall, my laoding bench is in my shop and I am at my computer in my home office so the data is not at my finger tips right now. I believe its under 60 grains but close. I know for sure I use federal 210 primers. My chronographed loads were exactly 2900fps and I have a 23" pacnor bench rest barrel, thanks to John Ricks for fixing me up with that great accurate barrel!

JJ,

HotCore has a habit of insulting, harassing, and generally putting his foot in his mouth when he believes he has a point or thinks he is right. When you prove him wrong, he is totally out of his league and begins insulting and disrespecting people by intentionally misspelling names, calling you down, claiming you did something wrong, or are attempting to mislead the people. He �proves� this with his own home brewed �facts� of what you �said� or �claimed� to have said. Failing this, he�ll just make things up i.e. JJ takes clients on Brown Bear hunts with handguns. Outside of what you have seen here, HotCore's tactics can be seen in his many responses to Ken Howell, OKShooter et al. Present him with the facts and he will be silenced (as you have seen)�

Turok

That's what you can expect from HotCore there JJ. Put HotCore on the spot, and he'll reply in a manor exactly as I've stated. I.e.

quote:

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resident fool - toruck's - post...his foolishness...his above loonacy...Only a TOTAL FOOL (like toruck)...little scum-sucking maggot-trolls like you think.

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And then further,

quote:

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...hack's over-bragging and his methods...his arrogant, sefl-rightous, pompous preaching to Ed did prompt my response...

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Then he makes things up.

quote:

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So toruck thinks hack has never taken people bear hunting with pistols?!?! Maybe he hasn't, but hack just posted a very wordy story/article within this thread which says he did. So, you can either believe me (and hack himself) that hack did it, or you can believe toruck that he didn't.

Do you think toruck's TOTAL STUPIDITY is showing yet????

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Not what I said at all, but you are free to spin it however you wish. I do believe JJ has taken clients out on black bear hunts with pistols. He has admitted it and he even posted the article about it. I've never said otherwise. This is another prime example of HotCore making stuff up to prove a point

quote:

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I expected hack to ask for a link to what I'd seen at The Coffee Shop. As most people know even if you had saved the link(which I never bothered to do), since the site has gone belly-up it would do no good anyhow.

---

Unless you can back your statements up, it becomes little more than hearsay at best. I must say it does fall into your type of argument though. Make a claim to something, then state that no-one can see it because the original no longer exists. Really ties things up for you doesn't it?

Your tactics are childish, and you contribute little more than insults when questioned. The people can and will decide for themselves who is the troll on these boards. Lucky for me, you do most of the work proving exactly who that is for them with your antics in each and every post.

It's funny how you're reading my posts now, as you've stated in the past that you never do anymore... But oh yes, you're hypocritical too.

Turok

JJHack,
I did read your first post with a lot of interest, but noticed that you were shooting much larger game than whitetail deer. The SST is designed mostly with deer hunting in mind (rapid expansion) I believe. I was simply wondering how the two might compare in the field on deer.
Thanks again for your informative posts. I plan to try some Interbonds also in the near future.

Thunderstick, We shot quite a few impala and warthogs, both about 125-225 pounds. Never recovered a bullet from the smaller animals. The exits were nice and the internal trauma significant. These bullets seem to be able to open like an SST or Ballistic tip. The difference is that they hold together so well with the jacket being bonded to the core.

Prior to the Interbonds being released I was a fairly strict 165 grain Aframe shooter with this rifle. I have no problem with the A frame and have recovered very few over the years( from game), they have been wonderful. The interbonds were tested by me for an upcoming article. Where better to test then Africa where I can get lots of experience with them in a short time.

What I found being the main difference between the Aframe and the interbond both in the same weight is the Interbonds much greater expansion at lower velocity. The two recoverd interbonds were both bigger then the biggest Aframe I ever recovered. By examinimg the exits it is also clear that the interbond holes are huge and had free flowing blood trails.

I had recovered Interbonds from a box of Clay to see how they held together prior to hunting with them. They all show exceptional expansion and high retianed weight.

If there is a down side to the AFrame( and it's a stretch) they have exceeded the standard of perfection and now make such perfect mushrooms that they have difficulty exiting with the big soft rounded shape. The interbond has a much sharper and flatter edge to the mushroom, when comparted to the Swift(in the 165 grain 30/06 weight) They cut through the exit with much higher frequency. They exit on line with the Partition in my opinion.

I use the Aframes in the 375HH and they are like magic. I have not found a bullet I like better. When the 270 Interbonds are available we shall see how they compare. For now the 165 grain weight in the interbond for the 30/06, and the A frame 270 grain weight in 375HH are my two bullets of choice.

If I were deer and antelope hunting in the USA only I might drop down to the 150 grain weight? when Elk, black bears, wild hogs etc. and African plains game are involved the 165 grain is the choice, maybe even the 180 grian weight. The advantage to the 165 grain is higher velocity with better retained weight then the 180grain bullets of standard construction. Put another way you can drop down a bullet weight and have equal or better performance with the bonded core bullets. The higher velocity will give you a bit more explosive effect on tissue and a flatter trajectory (within reason).

I must admit I believe in my heart that an exit hole is best. However I am also an admitted bullet recovery addict. I give my black skinners a bonus for every bullet they recover from game. The hunters like seeing them, and I learn quite a lot about performance from all the different cartridges and bullets made seeing 100's of big game killed with various guns, cartridges, and bullets.

The 165 grain .30 Interbond works great in my 300 Winchester. I get half inch groups at approx. 3100 fps. I shot my elk this year in the neck (the only visible target, I was hunting dark timber) at 30 yards. The bullet gave a .70" exit hole. I put one more into the chest from 10 yards. I got complete penetration and a 1" exit hole.

Last year I shot an elk with 150 Core-lokt and had the bullets penetrate about 10" and break apart. In a magnum caliber close range shots at high velocity are extremely hard on bullets. I see no reason to shoot anything else. I get great accuracy, higher retained energy at long range, good pentration, and rapid expansion, all at a moderate price.

Thanks JJ, that was a very informative post. It seems as though the Accubonds and Interbonds may have most all the desirable features wanted in a BG bullet.

The 130-gr. .277" InterBond is one of the five available from Graf & Sons, currently.

RSY

180 gr-30 cal. Hornady Interbond Late Dec, and 225gr Hornady IB 338 cal coming next.