Here's an article just published tonight. Curious what everybody's take is on the issue.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/447...es-blame-for-bighorn

Well... here is my take. Two weekends ago a friend asked me if I wanted to go on a doe antelope hunt. He drew an out of state tag and I did not for this unit. Doe antelope hunt, Oh what fun. Oh, we chose this unit because it was 97% public land. Any way

My friend, my 10 year old son an I go to have a fun time. My friend shot one soon after we arrived at the hunting area. He could have killed another easily but we had driven several hours and wanted to enjoy the day and my son was along and we wanted to "hunt."

Well he got another doe and we were leaving and stopped to look at some beautiful scenery and visit with a gentleman who was doing some photography. Well a game warden pulls up and we visit. After some conversation he asks us about our hunting, and we tell him about how much fun we have had hunting antelope. the Game warden checks my buddies license and shows us how to age an antelope by their teeth. all is good.

Then he says, "This is the part I don't like to do. Your s is a unit XX-7 license which is only for private land. There is a lot of confusion about this and next year it will change, a lot people make this error, BUT it is the hunter obligation to know the rules."

We felt horrible. My buddy had to pay a fine. It really made a fun hunt, well not fun. The game warden was very nice and he knew we were not knowingly doing anything wrong. BUT my friend still paid a fine.

Now someone who puts in for a DOE antelope tag and is "lucky" enough to draw and makes an honest mistake and has to pay the price for the mistake. Should someone who pays a large amount of money to hunt a very special animal with very few tags, be expected to know the regulations? I think they should, my friend was.

The amount of money it brings into the state should not make taking an animal on the wrong license, OK.

But I bet is does.

I see a cover up to protect the guiding service and the hunter from fines AND loss of the ram. Typical government agency playing politics like the "average" person/hunter don't matter.

For many of use when we started hunting the rule book for all game was 3x4 and a quarter of inch thick if that.

Now there are multiple booklets many pages thick covering each species.

Professional game managers need a way to justify there jobs.

We wonder why hunting is a failing sport one just can't buy a lic. any more and go hunting.

We have multiple booklets, we have many multiple law changes rules that have been there for years suddenly change.

They stated that they normally send each of the two hunters a letter each year to avoid confusion. They did not do that, the right call was made not to prosecute.

Jealousy is a powerful motivator.

I would look hard at the guide:

yes it is MY responsibility when/if I pull the trigger but if I'm paying someone out of state or out of country I feel that I would be paying them to not only help me try to find game but also help keep me out of trouble both physically getting in over my head and legally keeping me in the right unit on legal animals following the laws of the area I am hunting

If you break the law, you break the law, They should have fined but not confiscated since it was a mix-up and not deliberate.

I am not defending Wade. I know him well. I have hunted with him many times. I purchased the governors tag twice in Utah and hunted with Wade both times.

I have never seen any problems that I was aware of in my hunts . One time, I left my license in the truck. We had a mountain lion treed. They would not let me shoot until the license was retrieved.

Here is what I do not understand. WLH gets $6,000 for these hunts . Why would anyone risk jail and the ability to make a living over $6,000? Seems pretty stupid to me.

After reading the article it seems like a genuine legitimate mistake.
The regulation they violated was nowhere to be found in the printed regulations but instead was buried on the website.
Does it say anywhere in the printed regulations that every hunter must have a computer and internet access?
My opinion is that this was an honest mistake, if the employees of Utah's own wildlife Department can't come up with a correct interpretation until after the fact then how do they expect the average citizen or an outfitter to do a better job of it.
I can understand Wade's frustration but some of his comments aren't helping his image with the people doing the complaining either.

From the article:

Lemon said his clients "put a lot of money into Utah," more than those complaining about the ram.

"These knuckleheads ought to be ashamed for spit-balling these people. Those guys who buy a $25 deer tag don't do squat" for habitat conservation, he said.

That is some big balls right there.
Something tells me he will publicly apologize for that statement at some point.

Unfortunately, we are left with a lot of unanswered questions. Such as:
Why did he call a biologist that is in an office 200 miles away to see if it was legal? Why didn't he just call the Nebo biologist? (He obviously knew there was a law, or he wouldn't have called someone to ask about it.)
How does his client feel now, knowing her ram is technically poached? (If I used a general season deer tag to shoot a deer on the Henry's they would certainly call it poaching. Why? Because the tag is not valid for that unit.)
How does his client feel about WLH, now that she knows she paid good money to be led in to this mess?

I feel that I am in the minority in Utah in that I support a certain level of auction tags. (Not what we currently have, it is totally ridiculous.) If managed correctly the money that these tags bring in can be used to greatly enhance the wildlife of the state. Wildlife that everyone has access to.

I have to agree with bwanamrm. They should have maintained some essence of enforcing the game laws with a fine, most deservedly to the outfitter. Let the hunter keep the ram and that would have been the end of it. The fact that nothing was done seems to have fired up a lot of people.

I would like to apologize to the huntress caught up in this for some of the internet comments that have flown around in some of the public chat sites. I don't think she deserves it personally. I think she bought a great tag and placed her faith in a guide with 30 years of experience in the state to help her find a dream ram.
I wish she could have come to Utah, shot a big ram and had the hunt of her life doing so, with zero controversy.
Instead, she got this.

[quote]From the article:Lemon said his clients "put a lot of money into Utah," more than those complaining about the ram."These knuckleheads ought to be ashamed for spit-balling these people. Those guys who buy a $25 deer tag don't do squat" for habitat conservation, he said.That is some big balls right there.Something tells me he will publicly apologize for that statement at some point."

I absolutely agree, I think he better recant statements like that. If he doesn't he's not doing himself any favors.

"Unfortunately, we are left with a lot of unanswered questions. Such as:Why did he call a biologist that is in an office 200 miles away to see if it was legal?"quote]

I can speak from experience in Colorado sometimes it is far easier to get in touch with an office bound employee than the field Biologist and if you can't call the head office and get an accurate interpretation then who is really to blame?

I'm not defending anyone just offering a viewpoint that may differ from others. I truly doubt the Guide intentionally broke the rules and I think a fine for breaking the rules no matter how hard to find and follow they were, is in order.
I feel bad for the client caught up in this mess, a truly great animal now shrouded in an ugly mess.

Charges were not pressed, the way I understand it. Must mean Utah's DOW had some fault in the deal as well.

Well, that didn't take long.

From the Wade Lemon Hunting Facebook page:

This is Wade Lemon. I am not a social media person, but this was brought to my attention and thought I better comment. I wanted to take a moment to clarify what was published in a recent Salt Lake Tribune article. As many of us know the media can twist or distort words from the original meaning. The choice of excerpts taken from our conversation and stated the way they were paints an unrealistic picture of what was actually said and is only stirring more contention. I am not writing this to place blame, to point fingers, or to start a dialogue, I am simply writing to clarify. The article insinuates that this was an illegal hunt, if there were anything illegal about it, everyone involved would have been ticketed, fined, and probably received jail time yet we would still receive the same public flogging by social media that we are receiving now. The article also infers that I think all Utah hunters that purchase a 25$ tag are "knuckleheads" and that they do little to nothing for conservation. This could not be further from the truth. I AM one of these knuckleheads.... and though it may be a small contribution in comparison with some of the money conservation tags and other avenues bring in, that small donation in conjunction with all others, is GREAT. Utah wildlife and conservation would not be what it is today without the combined contributions and efforts both small and large of Sportsmen and women. I understand if you read the article and were offended by my comments, you had every right to be, given the light they were portrayed in. Now let me be very clear as to the knuckleheads I was referring to..... I am referring to the "handful" of knuckleheads that throw mud and allegations. I am referring to the knuckleheads that have issued threats to my family, guides, and clients. I am referring to the knuckleheads that call for my friends' head on a platter, and believe they should be locked up in prison with all hunting rights revoked. If these knuckleheads would spend a fraction of the time and energy they do spit-balling and put it into something that would be beneficial like taking a kid hunting or fishing, or volunteering at a hunter safety class then their contribution would be invaluable as opposed to their time spent "spitballing" on the computer that doesn't "do squat" for wildlife or the future of wildlife. Instead they think because they paid 25$ they are good and can say whatever foul slander they would like. Everyone involved in this hunt has been effected negatively and want nothing more than to move forward. The Waldrip's have become family to us and are great supporters to Utah and Utah's wildlife. The Waldrips and their family are some of the finest people on the face of the earth. Please note because of the conservation program, contributions from hunters both large and small and the Utah DWR, wildlife in Utah is better than its ever been. If you were to look back in early settler's journals we know that deer and elk population were scarce and that predators had overrun the state so much that the pioneer's actually feared for their children's lives. Now Utah boasts some of the best wildlife and hunting in the world. This is by no accident. This is from a combined effort by all. This was the first hunt of this type we have had the opportunity to pursue. We did everything in our power to make sure we were versed in every rule. Moving forward, we have learned a lot and will play our part in making sure nothing like this comes about again.
Sincerely,
Wade Lemon

That was well written.
Thank you for bringing it over here.
George

quote:

The article insinuates that this was an illegal hunt, if there were anything illegal about it, everyone involved would have been ticketed, fined, and probably received jail time

It is odd to me how he can not acknowledge that they killed an animal in a unit that the hunter's tag was not valid for.
Whether intentional or not, that is a fact.
I believe that fact alone makes it illegal.

quote:

It is odd to me how he can not acknowledge that they killed an animal in a unit that the hunter's tag was not valid for. Whether intentional or not, that is a fact. I believe that fact alone makes it illegal.

I understand your point, however if YOU called the Parks and Wildlife for clarification and were told that you are good to go, then after your hunt found out you operated on bad information wouldn't you feel that the State has some culpability in the mess?
It would be different if they knowingly committed an infraction and then tried to cover it up, that is criminal in my eyes.
To seek clarification up front then operate on the assumption that the information is correct is far from criminal.

Snellstrom,
Sent you a PM.

I don't know what to think. As I pointed out above, it would take an idiot to intentionally do this. What did they know? I do not know. I will not speculate .

I do know this . In many situations , one cannot pleade for mercy because of relying on incorrect advice. The IRS is a good example. If they give you wrong advice, too bad, tough luck except in certain limited circumstances.

Probably should have been a fine at minimum.

quote:

Originally posted by COYOTE HUNTER:
Snellstrom,
Sent you a PM.

Thanks for the PM!

Good to read others opinions on it. Thanks guys.

Personally, there are a couple things:

1. The first page of the regulations that in Wade's own words his guides memorized, states that these are only for reference and then gives the location for the actual rules. This is not unusual, and many states that I hunt have similar disclaimers.

2. Without some knowledge that this tag has additional rules about the Nebo unit, why did WLO feel the need to call the DWR at all? And why not Cal either the office in the unit or the principal headquarters, instead of a completely different regional office? This rule is not as obscure as it might seem, and is the only section that regulates the statewide sportsman and conservation tags. Personally, I grew up at the base of this unit and remember the introduction of the herd, and the first year hunting was allowed. It was announced then that due to the small herd size not being able to tolerate more than a ram out two harvested each year, that a rotation would be put into effect for the statewide tags. Aether with that a quick Google exercise cad reveal the very plainly worth rule making the unit off limits to the auction tag in even years.

I have no problem with the auction tags in Utah and I do think that they provide a huge boost to conservation. However, Utah DWR has been establishing a pattern of cronyism and looking the other way for particular interest groups like SFW and yes, Wade Lemon as well. There is no way that WLO stumbled onto his ram the day before the season opener, got the permission, and popped it on opening day. They had weeks if not months to get the correct information and the DWR was very silent on the matter for 6 weeks until public pressure forced their hand. All the while not admitting that a ram had even been killed, the DWR was posting up article after article looking for info on who poached this buck, or these cow elk. The DWR strongly urged the prosecutor to not press charges, and that puts him in a tough spot. How do you expect a prosecutor to successfully prosecute if the enforcing agency didn't support the charges? And it sure seems strange that the public draw statewide tag holder can produce their letter stating is was their turn to hunt the unit, but DWR nor the Waldrip can do the same.

auctions are bullcrud.
that's my take on it.
draw or don't.

Justanotherhunter, thank you for your reasoned reply.

I don't think the hunter purposefully broke the law, Just as my friend in the first reply to the OP. But just like my friend, the hunter is responsible for knowing the rules.

I would imagine that if the outfitter I hired for a special/high dollar tag would know every rule. I bought a black bear tag in Wyo and I guarantee I have read the bear reg enough I knew ALL the regs.

I have been on one guided hunt in AK, and I will admit relied on them to know all the regs. When I had killed a bear and had time to fish my guide would not even touch my fishing pole because of some regulation about guides actually fishing. We were in the middle of know where and I could not master the "Keni flop" that might not be the actual term for trying to get a red salmon to bite the hook. Any way not only would he not show me how, because modeling is a great teaching method, but I foul hookded one and we let it go. I like hunting with a guide like that. I don't want to break the rules, I'm there to have fun.

Again, I don't think the hunter intentionally broke the law. I would be upset with the outfitter.

If guiding hunters was my job, I would think that you would know this issue.

I would hope the outfitter would return the clients money.

My friend felt horrible about ignorantly shooting the very rare DOE antelope in Wyo on a license that was only good on private land. I can only imagine how sullied the experience to this hunter who paid considerable money for a tag feels.

Even if nothing happens this hunter will not be able to fully enjoy the memories of his hunt or the ultimately illegitimate trophy on the wall.

I have know doubt this hunter contributes a great deal to conservation by buying this license. I guess that is how the Utah fish and game will make themselves feel better by saying they made a mistake. That is big of them.

None of this surprises me at all. The Utah DWR has been all about the $$ for years, and even they are not entirely to blame. They have their bosses too, and the ones REALLY calling the shots dont give a damn about our wildlife or hunting opportunities. Just revenues. Most folks in the DWR are really good people who mean well. It is the directors and their political bosses who stink things up.

There is clearly an issue with this particular rule not being in the proclamation. However, the more that I read about this the more I cannot help but suspect that Lemon may have deliberately taken advantage of the situation. There should be an investigation at the very least. And if any "exceptions" are to be made it might be that a Professional guide should know the rules more so than anybody. I was OK initially with letting the DWR take the blame, but frankly Lemons stupid remarks about "knuckleheads" only paying $25.00 makes me VERY angry and that perhaps his license to guide should be revoked. I have no patience for elitists like that looking down their noses at folks who wait for years for a once in a lifetime hunt and his "apology" seemed to revert right back into that same frame of mind. This is the kind of crap you get when traditional hunting becomes a money game.