Going to hunt Mule Deer in New Mexico, with a muzzleloader. I do not own a muzzleloader. I need sugestions.

Austin Hallek - dang good looking gun. Is it any good?

T/C Omega- anyone have one or shoot one? Is it as good as the commercials make it out to be.

Any other brands to look at or stay away from?

Wendell, what are you looking to do, hunt ole time o use one of the newer in-lines.It looks to me that you want to go in-line, have never hunted mule deer, but on my white tails I have used the 50cal with black belt bullets and ffg goex black powder,if you need range more than a solid 100 yards you might want to look at the new 45cal in lines like the knight and TC,not sure about the Austin, it seems from some of the guys who hunt all season with the front loaders that the in-lines like the pellet powder better then loose.
If you could get real close say 50 yards and under I'd loan you my 8 bore,that is if you don't mind hauling around 14lbs

I like the Muzzleloader barrel on my Encore. I've taken a deer with it each of the last three years.

Why not try something a little more like what a real old-time bp rifle really was back when black powder and roundballs were the stock in trade for mulies in New Mexico?

A Lyman Great Plains in .50 or .54 with a roundball twist would work really well (also comes in fast twist for maxies and sabots if you must). And cheap at ~$300 or so. One of the better percussion rifles out there on the mass market. Also comes in flinter if you are up to it. http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/index.htm

Stick with real Black powder too. It really does work- even better than you would think.

If you want to go for broke, go to www.trackofthewolf.com and get a very very nice - even an original 19th century rifle.

Brent

While nostalgia does have it's place, the only reason I am usung a muzzleloader is because it is illegal at this time of year to use my 7mm. So, yes, an inline would be best. (Thanks anway Brent, good idea, but I want a deer on the ground! )

Dave, lets see. I need to get 50 yards from a deer dragging a 14 lb rifle ... hmmmm. Sounds like fun, but I think I should look at a lighter rifle. Thanks anyway. Besides, I plan on using my collarbone this year. Rather not have it smashed to bits on a prone shot .

One of the forum members e-mailed me a note about the T/C Omega. I like this gun ... I think. Anyone use it? It looks nice.

A buddy has the Omega, I shoot an Encore. Accuracy is excellent with either. We both shoot 300 gr. (.50 cal) PowerBelt H.P. over 2 50 gr. Pyrodex pellets. Groups in either gun hold at about 1 1/4 inches at 100, off a bench. Minute of deer for sure.
I prefer the Encore due to the interchangable barrel feature, and it just fits me better. He likes the looks of the Omega. Pays your money, and makes your choice. I don't think you can go wrong with either one.
Good luck

Austin Halleck is a good rifle. Markesbery is also good. TC would be my 3rd choice. My Lyman Great Plains is pretty rough & would be my last choice, but you get what you pay for.

Wendell,

If you want performance take a look at the Savage ML-10II. It will handle smokeless powder although smokeless powder is illegal in ML's in NM. If you use it elsewhere in the future the ability to use smokeless powder may help you considerably.

Also, stay away from H-777 as it tends to freeze breech plugs. Helpful hint on any inline: use anti-sieze on the breech plug sparingly (just enough but not too much) and then DON'T wrench down on the breech plug...barely snug. Probably the best thing you could do is go with traditional BP if you can get it fairly easily.

If a guy had absolutely no interest in the smokeless powder aspect then I'd take a long look at the T/C as you can buy the platform and then buy any centerfire caliber you want, etc.

Good luck.

Reed

Now, why wouldn't a round ball put a deer on the ground at fifty yards, when mine will kill elk at over a hundred? The inline companies have sold novices a bill of goods.

I have to agree with Ric. A 50 or 54 cal round ball is NOT a toy. I can guarantee you wouldn't want one shot at you even at 500 yds. never mind 50. The patched round ball has worked for,what,2 or 3 hundred years? Why would you think it ineffective now all of a sudden? derf

I've used about every type, and like you did it because it allowed me to extend the hunting season during some attractive times to hunt. I have absolutely no interest in black powder otherwise and find it a pain in the a**. For that reason, I think I am pretty unbiased in my comments.

Conventional ML's are for nostalgia only. They are hard to scope, stocked incorrectly for scopes and slow to clean. They don't work well with pellets, which are far and away the fastest way to reload.

Inlines are accurate, similar to conventional rifles and well sealed, but tend to be hard to clean due to the action length and trying to keep goop out while cleaning the barrel. They are very slow to prime for follow up shots.

Break actions, such as the Encore (and Omega) have all the benefits of the inlines plus they are faster to prime and easier to clean. I personally am not a fan of the Encore due to cost. The price of a new barrel and scope is nearly what you can buy a decent bolt gun with scope for, and you have multiple guns which are repeaters.

My pick of all available would be the Omega. Whatever you use, be sure the muzzle is counterbored. With this and a few Quickloads with Pyrodex pellets and sabot bullets, you can reload quickly for followup shots. Performance and accuracy of heavy jacketed handgun bullets in this combo is very good.

Wendell,

For what you want go with the Encore 209x.50. When you become disillusioned with BP hunting you can get a barrel chambered for the latest "gee-whiz cartridge" for your next hunt. Sell the old barrel on eBay and you'll lose hardly anything.

I do NOT recommend anything CVA or Traditions markets.

Practice with your full power load is what you need to get consistent accuracy as loading technique is critical to accuracy. Many problems reported in these forums can be traced directly to slap dash loading.

Good luck.

Brent,

My comment about nostalgia was directly in response to your comment,

quote:

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Why not try something a little more like what a real old-time bp rifle really was back when black powder and roundballs were the stock in trade for mulies in New Mexico?

---

I do not think I am incorrect in my thinking that a gun like the Omega will be easier for a novice to use. Seems to be a prety easy decision if you ask me. You also mentioned using a flint rifle. No thanks.

Even in my unbelievable ignorance I still think an inline is a bit more advanced than a flintlock.

The "14 lb. rifle" comment was not directed to you, it was to Dave who said

quote:

---

"If you could get real close say 50 yards and under I'd loan you my 8 bore,that is if you don't mind hauling around 14lbs."

---

I am sure your Lyman is all that and a bag of chips, but I have no interest in this rifle. Read Art's comment on why he uses a muzzleloader.

Like Art S., I am not interested in using this gun for all sorts of hunting. I will learn to use it for the task at hand, I will develop loads for it, and learn the POI at different ranges, but after this hunt, I will either sell it (not likely) or clean it, oil it and stick it in the safe until the next time I have an opportunity at a muzzleloader only season.

We do not have a muzzleloader season in my county in Texas, so my use of the rifle will be quite limited.

[ 07-07-2003, 18:24: Message edited by: Wendell Reich ]

Wendell,

I have an .50 Encore and killed a nice little buck here last year at 207 yards using 120 grains of 777 and 350 QT bullets from Precision Rifle.

If I were to buy another rifle it would be the Omega for two reasons: First, it is a whole lot easier to clean. The extractor on the Encore requires you to dismantle the rifle to clean it (this year I'm going to leave the extractor off the rifle to facilitate cleaning). Second, the Omega is a whole lot lighter and humpin' up and down the hills here that means a lot to me. Good luck on your New Mexico hunt.

John

Thanks guys,

I have pretty much decided on the Omega. Any hints on bullets and loads?

Pyrodex pellets. Anyone use them? Pro's Con's?

I understand the powerbelt bullets are good.

In this area, I am going to need all the range I can get. I figure 150 yds is about the max. Is this about right or would a responsible hunter be ok shooting up to 200 yds? (Not a dig on you John, it is just that these Mulies are larger in body size than your average deer.)

What kind of energy/velocity do you have at 200 yds with 3 Pyrodex 50gr. pellets with a 300 gr powerbelt bullet?

Not afraid of the recoil, not afraid of using 3, 50 gr pellets, if it means more velocity, better energy downrange.

Once again, thanks for the info.

Wendell,if you are flying into or driving thru Albuquerque I have a scoped Knight 50 cal. inline I would be happy to loan you.I normally carry it for elk,shooting saboted XTP's ahead of pyrodex pellets.
If I can assist you contact me at Sjuckett@aol.com

Bravo

Bravo,

Thanks, that is very kind. Two things prevent me from taking you up on the offer.

1. I am driving from Texas.
2. I would probably damage (ding, scratch, break) your rifle and wind up buying it!

Thanks anyway, it was a very generous offer. Anyway if I buy one, I will have an excuse to hunt my brother-in-laws Oklahoma ranch during their muzzleloader season.

Wendell,

I for one don't like Powerbelts. They don't attach to one another too well and I simply envision the bullet falling out of the barrel when I'm not looking...

You have some good info but I'd still take a look at the Savage ML-10II. Here's some websites that might help and you might look particularly at the performance of the Savage with smokeless powder...it won't help you in NM but if you hunt with ML's elsewhere it opens up a whole new level of performance and significantly increases your range. For example, 300g bullets going over 2500fps and grouping 3 shots at 0.655 inches at 100 yards. Since you don't fall into the flintlock crew it would seem to make sense.

Good luck.

Reed

http://ridgerunner20.tripod.com/thesavagearchivepages/

http://www.dream-tools.com/tools/messages.mv?index+savagemuzzleloader

Wendell,

All the BS and personal prejudices aside, you've made an acceptable choice for YOUR use.

As to bullets, I'd use the Buffalo Bullets. Powerbelts aren't as good as they once were and do lose bases. The base changing changes ballistics just like a cartridge firearm. Use the 3 Pyrodex pellets it will be easier on you. Again, practice. The practice isn't just for shooting but for loading. Very important that loading...

Again, good luck.

P.S. I no longer shoot or own, nor will I in the future own, an inline. I'm now a dyed in the wool "traditional" shooter. I'm currently using a side-lock .54 OR a flintlock musket (.75 cal) when legal. You see, to me, it isn't the killing it is the hunt. The killing, sometimes occasionally , is only to differentiate what I do from a walk in the woods.

Wendell good choice, I thin kthe pellets are the way to go for you, I would look at the different ones, and try a few diff bullets, untill you find one that works, With the Omega I think TC will send you some advice on load to use,If you can get ahold of a "Black Powder Hunting" mag there is alot of info there on all aspects of the front stuffers. If you can't find one let me know and I'll break down and send you one from my collection

Wendell,

Go to this site for bullets: Precision Rifle

They've got a lot of information and I believe if you practice enough as I did, you'll find that with the right rifle, sight/scope, and load you'll be pleased with what can be regularlly accomplished with the modern muzzleloader.

I personnally use 120 grains of 777 powder and the 350 grain Precision Rifle QT bullet. Sighted 3 inches high at 100 yards puts me 6 inches low at 200 with groups around 1.5 inches at 100 yards.

There is one problem I've encountered with 777. Although it cleans up using just water, for some reason it leaves a ring of fouling in the barrel just about where the top of the bullet would be when fully seated. You have to approach this fouling carefully when swabbing the barrel between loads or you will jam the jag in the barrel and the only way I've been able to clear it was by pulling the breech plug and pushing the ramrod all the way through. Once you get the technique down for carefully swabbing it its not that big a deal. I contacted Hodgdon about it and they said they were aware of it but didn't offer any solution.

Good luck

I got into muzzleloading a few years ago for the challenge and the extended seasons. I started relatively cheaply with a CVA Staghorn Mag which is inline and will handle three pellets. I have yet to change. It shoots right there with my brother's Encore (I know I got lucky) and is lighter. When I do upgrade (and I still plan to) I will go with the Omega. I have done some research and they look very well done. When you get it, try various loads before stopping. Mine happens to like 110 grains of Pyrodex Pellets (1-50 & 2-30s) with either a 240 or 300 XTP in the sabot. I started at 90 grains and worked all the way up to 150 to arrive at the middle ground as best in my rifle. I bought some bulk bullets that come in those tubes and when I shot them up, the tubes make good speed loaders. As someone said above, practice for the reloading as much as for the accuracy. Last year I took two deer in just a couple minutes because I could reload quickly enough.

Have fun shooting it!

X-cal,

I was kind of suspect of him from the start, I think he is from Georgia!

Too bad he already sold his Omega.

I will get the Omega, probably from Cabelas. I will let you know how it works for me.

Wendell,
Not top cast a shadow on the Omega, but I sold a T/C Firehawk that would shoot less than 1 inch 3 shot groups at 50 yards (and never failed to put whatever animal I shot at down, too many deer to count, 2 caribou and a black bear at ranges up to 95 yards)to get a T/C Omega 45 cal. I was looking for a gun that would extend my range out to 200 yards and still have enough poop to put down an elk. Well I have the gun, I have shot about 100 rounds using various bullets and powder combinations and have yet to break under 2 inch groups at 50 yards. Needless to say I am less than thrilled. Good luck and if you find the magic combination let me know.

Bud,

Hmm, sorry to hear that. Good luck getting it to group. I bet there are some guys here who can help though.

I was looking at getting the .50 cal. Should I be looking at a .45?

Wendell,

I'll just tell you what has worked for me, even though, it sounds like you may have made up your mind. The common Remington 700 inline, in 50 cal. shooting 250gr. Barnes MZ bullet with their sabots. over 110gr. - 125gr. of Pyrodex Select. I still light them with No. 11 mag. caps.

My best buddy and I both have the same rifles and we have other friends that have gone through the mill so to speak trying to find better performers, including the Omega, the Encore and several Knights, they all have their good and bad points, but the Remingtons suit us the best 1 1/2" 3 shot groups at 100yrds. are common and a buck standing still at 200yrds is in big trouble. Dont skimp on the scope mine wears a leupold 2.5 x 8 and it is great for this application just like it is for 90% of all Big Game hunting. I dont like stainless, but in this case it makes it easier to see any powder resedue and get it cleaned from all surfaces.

Best advice I could offer is to handle all of them, this is one place the Remingtons gain some ground for the fella use to bolt rifles, a more normal weight/balance and pointability.

HBH

Wemdell,

I think you have made a good decision. I've handled the Omega and am likely to buy one in the future. I currently own several older flintlock and percussion (side hammer) muzzleloaders, as well as a Remington Model 700ML. I am pretty sold on the Remington, though the Omega is the top contender when I go to purchase another. (Which will be soon, BTW, as my wife and son will be joining me on a ML deer hunt in Utah this year.)
After being disappointed with shooting T/C lead bullets in the Rem, I purchased several different types of bullets just a couple weeks ago and headed to the range. I bought power belt, Nosler and Barnes X bullets, all in 300 grain, .50 caliber. I also bought some of the 777 pellets. I am really sold on the pellets, and have used 777 for over a year, and will NEVER use pyrodex or blackpowder again, unless mandated by hunting regulations. I can clean the ML quicker than my modern rifles when using 777. Don't worry about frozen breach plugs - with the anti-sieze compound it really isn't an issue.
Back to the shooting.
I started with 2, 50 grain pellets, and the Barnes X with sabot. I fired 5 shots at 100 yards, scoped, and was mystified until I went down range to recover the target. 4 shots were in one ragged hole, and the 5th was less than 1/4 inch away! Unbelievable. Total group under 3/4 "!(I've saved the target and will post pictures later for those who really won't believe this. I wouldn't either!) I was also shooting over the Oehler Chronograph and was averaging about 1725 fps. I couldn't see wasting any more time and powder/bullets, so never even tested the power belt or nosler bullets. Sort of hard to imagine doing any better! I'm done playing with this rifle, and ready to take it hunting. I realize each rifle is an individual, but I've found a gem here, and know that the rifle will be doing its part this fall, if only I do mine.

Sorry for the long post, but in summary, I still like the Omega, wouldn't get rid of the Rem 700ML for almost anything, and love the 777 powder pellets. Its hard arguing with success.

Good Luck,

Bill

The Omega is a hammer gun. You have to set the hammer before you shoot. (while the deer is in front of you) You can not set the hammer early because there is no other safety. The hammer usually makes a very loud "CLICK" when you set it. If you hold the trigger down it wont click but then it is to much to remember and think of when a deer is in front of you. I think it is fine gun and has proved to be a good shooter but I will NEVER hunt with a hammer gun again.

Look at Knights new Elite.

Wendell,

Late post here... I bought an Omega .50 last year for an elk hunt in NM, 15B. I tried various "loads", and the accuracy of the Powerbelts with either 2 or 3-50gr Pyrodex pellets was the best (I used 3 for the hunt). I also found them easiest to get down the barrel. The Barnes and one other (I forget which) were real tight and required enough force that I tended to crush the pellets.

I put on an extra Vari II 2.5-8 scope. The cocking of the gun does indeed make a "click" sound. I was prepared for a 50-75 yard shot, but it was full moon and it did not work out that way. I ended up taking an elk at 180-yards, so it is capable of reaching out if this all that presents itself.

Although an inline is not the choice of the purist, it does provide enough variables to make it quite interesting. Good luck!

Bill