Why is the F word treated differently to the BS word.

If someone uses "fuck" they are accused of lacking language skills.

If some uses "bullshit" they are not accused of lacking language skills.

I have always felt that slang is the "hotted up, tuned up" version of the language.

That is, slang is the equivalent of bedding or rebarreling the factory rifle. It has arisen out of need.

My experience has been that the most serious users of "fuck" are the most highly educated people, namely medical specialists and also very high income people. Lower level users tend to be mid level education aand those out to impress and not sure of their ground and then serious users reappear with lower levels of education.

Obviously there are plenty of exceptions in each group.

Normally, this would go into the Misc Forum, but I thought I would post here since there have been relevant postings.

But the bottom line, can any words in the language convey the variety of meanings and intensity that bullshit and fuck (and its different versions, like a slang version of slang) are able to do. I suspect not since other words don't generate separate threads.

Mike

[ 08-08-2002, 14:43: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Shit is the only other one that comes to mind.

The word "fuck" is reportedly an acronym derived eons ago from the words "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge." The letters F-U-C-K were displayed in connection with individuals being hanged or otherwise punished for having had intercourse with someone other than their spouse.

If it is more commonly used by the educated (a highly debatable point, I think) then it would probably be because of the climate of arrested development (lingering adolescence) in universities. That goes for America, I can't speak for Australia.

Any word is a mere vibration of the vocal chords, and is only offensive to those who allow it to be. If a black man is called "nigger," it isn't the word itself that hurts him, it's the sentiment that someone would think so little of him to demean him in such a way. If he understands that the person speaking that word is near certainly an intellectual cripple, it should put things into perspective and allow him to be less concerned.

Words tell us more about the person speaking them than they do about anyone or anything else.

Folks who habitually use curse words to color their language never impress me as being of a higher degree of intellect. The opposite usually seems the case. If an inveterate "foul mouth" is well educated he might best fit the category described by Mark Twain as being "educated beyond his level of intelligence." The question isn't "Do well educated people speak thus?" It is "Do intelligent people speak this way?"

I don't mean to imply that I haven't used every expletive in the book at one time or another. I think I've even invented one or two here and there. But it's not something I'm proud of, and it's something I try hard not to do. Sort of like "breaking wind" in public.

Dan Newberry
green 788

[ 08-08-2002, 15:50: Message edited by: green 788 ]

Dan,

My business puts me in front of a great number of medical specialists.

I often feel with them it can be inverted snobbery. Often see them write very poorly as well.

Sort of "I am only a cardiothoracic surgeon".

Mike

Johan

green 788,
That is a good explanation.
I thought it refered to
Flordia (Undergraduate) Coral Keys University

FUCK U

I'd like to ad:


Johan

Johan,
I seldom use profanity either in conversation or in my writing. I will reference it when others use it, but generally in a way to take it's sting away. If you read my posts you won't see me using it personally.
The neat thing about the English language is that there are so many ways to express yourself without using profanity. I hate to see the F-word used in anger or in a derisive manner. I personally believe that it lowers the level of debate or discussion.
Those who refrain and engage in a clever and literate dialogue will almost always prevail. It is they who we all learn from, for their words are thoughtful.
That said, there is an appropriate time and place where the F-word can be effectively used. When your significant other looks you in the eyes and says "F*** me" you will understand the true value and power of the word. Any other use of it will never approach that meaning or the passion in its intent than in that circumstance.
My advice is to save it for that or if you bang your thumb with a hammer, it works well there too

Knowing the origins of words is valuable as well, and notice that the F-word is of Norse origin. This is from a study on the origins of profanity,

FUCK

Despite its recent emergence into semi-acceptability in the mass media, "fuck" is the grand-daddy of dirty words. Its actual origins have been obscured by a persistent tale that's clearly incorrect.

The erroneous explanation traces "fuck" to the Pilgrims. As the story goes, early Massachusetts settlers who fornicated out of wedlock were punished by confinement in special stocks bearing the legend: For Use of Carnal Knowledge. The first letters of these words form the acronym "fuck."

A nifty story, but it doesn't explain how, according to the OED, "fuck" first appeared in print in 1503, more than a century before the Pilgrims landed, in a poem by Dunbar, who referred to copulation as "fukkit." Then in 1535, some 85 years before the Pilgrims, another writer, Lyndesay, had this to say about top English clergy: "Bishops may fuck their fill and be unmarried." The Pilgrims may have given us Nathaniel Hawthorne's scarlet "A" for adultery, but "fuck" was well established long before they sailed for the New World.

Etymologists trace "fuck" to the Old Norse-Old German word "fokken," meaning to thrust, strike, or penetrate, and by extension, to copulate.

Some sources also speculate that the offshoot, "fok" or "fock" may have played a role in extending the meaning of "cock" to the penis.

Knowing where our terms of Anglo-Saxon origin come from doesn't make them any more acceptable in polite conversation. But it enriches them, and allows them to be used more intimately and lovingly in one of the places where they survived underground for so many centuries--behind closed doors.

[ 08-09-2002, 05:44: Message edited by: CritrChik ]

At first I thought Mike375 was just stupid, then I remembered Albert Einstein's famous formula:

"E = MC fuckin' Squared"

[ 08-08-2002, 19:55: Message edited by: ForrestB ]

Mike,

'Sup,

It is always interesting to see how differently people percieve things.

Crass or vulgar language is typically associated with juvenile behaviour (ie. trying to appear tough) and the uneducated (ie. don't have the vocabulary to think of a more appropriate or more descriptive word for the situation).

I think we are all as humans prone to hyperbole, though, so the use of coarse language is often used to add "punch" (ie. that elk I missed wasn't just really big, it was the biggest f'ing elk I ever saw!). It is also used to express anger, as a loudly spoken expletive definately gets the point across (just ask my dog).

I deal with people from across the education spectrum too. Loggers work in my office, and I consult with Phd's frequently. I also have a few friends that are medical doctors.

My experience is similar to yours. The lesser educated tend to over-use profanity mainly because they either lack the vocabulary, they want to act the part of a tough guy (logger, construction worker, whatever), or they just want to fit in.

Middle of the road people use it, but to a lesser degree.

Highly educated and very intelligent people seem to use it more on average too. I think the reason for this, though, is that they like to dumb down a little sometimes and give their minds a rest, and because they often try harder than necessary to seem "normal". It is human nature to want to fit in and it is tough operating on different level than all your friends and family, all the time, without feeling like they assume you feel superior. Remember high school? So you compensate. And there is also the fact that extreme intellects also tend to be eccentric in many other areas than just their use of language. Check out the gang that hangs at MENSA if you want a good example.

I am not saying I am one of these elite intellectuals (Lord knows I ain't!), but as a case in point I find I swear one heckuva lot at work simply to communicate effectively with those that think that way. I would be laughed off the cutblocks and never be taken seriously if I used my fancy edjumacated talk to explain why I want a block logged a certain way!

My personal feeling about coarse language is that it has its place, but it is not something to be cherished. I don't think that it is the evolution of the language and on the cutting edge. I think it is the devolution of the language and contributes to the overall dumbening of society. Replacing hundreds of very descriptive adjectives/adverbs with one, can't be beneficial to the quality and versatility of a language.

Then there is slang, but thats another story.

Dude, this site is whack! And if all dese sketchy posters would jus quit tweakin off I'd be really down wif it.

Canuck

I know my wife would feel more confident in her Doctor's intelligence if he told her, "you've got a fuckin' malignant tumor, and we're gonna have to cut your fuckin' tit off".

The insecure dumbfuck Doctors use that fuckin' high falutin' talk to make their dumbass patients feel even more fuckin' moronic.

Luckily I can bullshit with them on their fuckin' level.

I dont think profanity is such a bad thing when used appropriately. Some of the examples cited here are clearly not the case. It can be used quite effectively, such as telling someone to fuck off. When it IS ADDED for NO reason, such as a doctor saying he fuckin gonna have to cut your fuckin tit off is lame and a weak case to prove your point at best.

Just as any other words, profane words can either be used in the right context or the cannot, and its easy to judge whether its being used right or not.

Much of our society is dictated by pre-set notions and the inability of some to deal with reality. For instance while some thought it was wrong of Clinton to ruin a good cigar on a cunt like Lewinksy (sp?), risk his marriage....ect... I thought it was quite human nature. I didn't like the lying, though, although in some ways I could also see that as being human nature, but he should have overcome that part.

What I believe seperates what Mike sees as the educated using profanity and the lower classes using profanity is what I mentioned before, and that is using it in the right context versus using it out of context.

When you go to England however this is all thrown out the door as the cuss more then anyone group of people. However they are pretty fuckin funny.

I have rarely been proven wrong on this, but I have witnessed that many of the more professional people in our society are the ones who publicly get drunk the most. I was a dish-washer for a bar/resturant and when I went to highschool some of the teachers would come in and well, they had a smirk on their face when I saw them at school and I always got good grades in their classes... I was also commissioned one time in my ceramics class to make part of a filter for a teachers beer maker he was building, and he has 3 degrees and is known as the highest English teacher currently teaching there. Quite odd I thought at the time. But that was quite a few years ago.

Buell

[ 08-08-2002, 21:08: Message edited by: Buell ]

I have also heard that FUCK came from the days when a person would have to get permission from the king to have children and their door would be posted Fornicating Under Consent of the King. It is amusing the number of meanings that surface for old sayings and phrases (try looking into where "the whole 9 yards comes from ) but I digress. I am not sure that I understand why people get offended by certain words yet others go uncontested, because somewhere in time a group of people decided that this list is swear words and these are ok. When the only list I have ever really heard was put together by George Carlin I personally don't think that I would judge someone based on something as assinine (an acceptable word when someone could get offended if you called their idea ass like) as vocabulary. just my .02 gabe

I thought it stood for Fornication Under Consent of the King.
In any case who gives a fuck what words people use. Those who judge based on that alone are sad people indeed.

Also, the f word is perhaps one of the most unique words used in english language. I have a ball breakingly hilarious audio file that explains this if anyone wants me to send it to them via e-mail.

Okay... I'm taking notes...

So far I've got three new curse words:

Fukkit!

Fokken!

Fok!

How's that? (Thanks Critterchik!)

Dan

If this forum is trying to achieve a new low, I think it's succeeding. This thread is pathetic.

What I find funny, is that many people assume that those with large vocabularies judge those that don't as being in some way inferior, whether it is actually true or not. IHMO, most of the judging that goes on as it relates to use of language, is the other way around from what you would automatically assume. Use a big word in many crowds and people will look at you funny, call you Poindexter or something and probably stop talking to you.

Why is it such a bad thing to know a little about our language?

Canuck

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Canuck:
Use a big word in many crowds and people will look at you funny, call you Poindexter or something and probably stop talking to you.
QUOTE]

Poindexter??

Are you saying that people who write posts and use four letter words and other profanity do so because of a small vocabulary? I would submit that they are only rude and obnoxious.

At least no one has said it's their Constitional Right. Yet.

[ 08-09-2002, 00:42: Message edited by: Gator1 ]

I have as salty a tongue as the next fellow, however, I have always reserved the use of the topical phrase in private company only. I do not tolerate the use of the word in public in mixed company. Those who choose to do so are asked politely to refrain. They are asked only once....

This content of this thread has convinced me to eliminate even private use of the word. I would think I shall survive and suffer little difficulty in making myself understood.

~Holmes

My work environement requires me to spend large amounts of time with adolesecents whom often come from low socio-economic environemnts whom use drugs and I can verify that every sentence contains some form of profanity. Her are some examples of what I may spend a 14 hour shift on the weekend listening to.

"Fuckin Dogs" (refering to police or anyone else who might give them a direction)

"Dog Cunts" (Actually means the same as the above)

"Fuckin smash the cunt" (Tough Talk, yet in my 5 years in this role I have not met one of them that can actually fight. There large FIFA jackets give the impression of muscularity, but in reality they are all 45kg ringing wet)

"That cunt has fuckin dogged it on me" (reffering to someone who has either lagged them in for there pathetic criminal acts, or has made a simple request of them ie. would you mind doing the dish's)

From this I have concluded that those from the lower economic environments actually tend to use profanity quite a bit.

While my job is not physically hard I can ensure you that spending a few hours with foul mouthed piss ants whom are not be disciplined for any type of miss conduct whatsoever as that impinges on "there rights" (the people whom make rules for these 'fuckwits' are also attempting to hug bunnies, chain themselves to bulldozers and remove firearms from the community)is certainly mentally draining.

Fornication Under Consent of the King.

That is what I always heard.
As for "Whole Nine Yards" Any good Scotsman knows that is how much tartan it takes for a kilt.

I'll be glad when F'ing deer season starts and we have better posts than this BS

[ 08-09-2002, 04:50: Message edited by: ElCaballero ]

Wstrnhuntr,

If this thread is a waste of bandwith then is it true the bandwith is being wasted by those members who have responded and participated in the thread, one of who is you

Mike

Holmes,

I basically agree with your post. For example, I find it difficult or impossible to watch some modern movies on TV when my mother is present.

However, your post also illustrates one of the reasons that word or words have their use. That is, they are basically used in a man's world and their "restricted use" adds to their impact.

However no one has addessed my original question as to why someone who is using "fuck" in their posts is often accused of lacking language skills and at times it will even generate another thread, but "bullshit" or "shit" does cause the same comments.

I believe the reason for the criticisms of language skills when "fuck" is used occurs because the "accuser" will feel on safe gound in his attack.

This of course comes down to what he thinks will be "socially" or "forum" acceptable. He would not feel happy and relaxed about launching criticism on language skills if bullshit and shit were the words.

Quite sometime ago, I posted on both this site and HA a thread titled along the lines of Is Osama Bin Laden a Hero.

On HA a heap of posters came in as expected and nealry wore out HA's asterisk block out system. Not so much on this site.

You see the title of thread caused the posters to believe it was now "forum" acceptable to go into profanities in their attack on me.

As a side note, after many postings some people actually woke up to the fact that Osama Bin Laden could be a hero when viewed from the other side. That then took the thread in a different direction and the attacks on me ceased.

Mike

Forrest,
I spewed a very good morsel of my dinner on my computer desk because of you. I think old Albert is laughing along with me.

Does the derivation have anything to do with "Lets get the flock out of here?" Old horny shepherd saying from the dawn of time.

Wstrnhuntr,

Why did you read the thread in the first place and also respond, now twice?

If you post again on this thread you will have about 10% of the postings, at the current posting count

Mike

Holmes,

On the subject of your RKBA, I spent some time on the phone the other night with Richard Corbin. He was working with his brother up until 5 years ago at Corbin dies and has been separate for the last 5 years. I was confirming an order and some details for 416 jacketed bullet swaging gear I am getting.

The subject came up in terms of shipping various gun items across and into and out of America and his view was it was all heading in the wrong direction and that too many American shooters were content to sit back on the 2nd and be diverted by thoughts of outright gun bans.

He said he has also seen an increase in his business with shooters seeking independence by having their own bullet making gear.

I might add that one of the reasons I have ordered jacketed bullet making gear is to be independent of American supplies because things won't get better over there. I am expecting delivery by December 1 and once I get set up and know what I am doing then I will get 375 dies as well.

The way it is going, I might have to change from Mike375 to Mike416

Mike

[ 08-09-2002, 09:49: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

When I joined this board I remember posters who sweared used to get berated for their foul language. And I thought great, at last a board with some class.

I think this thread is an all time low.

And I think it is a shame that in Australia swearing is now considered acceptable.

I will admit I do it and I try not to on these forums, but I think rather than looking superior by swearing, the main thing achieved is to loose respect in the eyes and ears of your peers.

aren't you all mis spelling the word?
When it comes from my mouth, it's usuallyt
AWWWWWfuck!!! as in "it would have been a much nicer day if, perchance, I hadn't dropped the zeiss scope in the gravel, from 20 feet"

see, it IS spelled awwfuck

jeff

I like CritrChiks response, and she makes one wish one could be using it with her in the way she said it was used best.

[ 08-09-2002, 19:40: Message edited by: partsman ]

I have also heard that the word "fuck" derives from teh german word, flickin (not sure on the spelling), a word meaning to strike. I have this song that describes all the meaing of the wrod, as an adverb, adjective, as part of a work (i.e. in-fucking-credible), as dismissal (why dont you go outside and play hide and go fuck ourself), thats just a few of the examples they give. Its a funny song, but that it deriving from the german word doesnt make as much sense as For Unlawful Carnel Knowledge.

Back to Mikes question I have wondered myself why fuck has been deemed by the masses as the grandaddy of all swears, the best I could come up with is as to the connotation of fuck vs the ever touchy feely "make love" One has a connotation of love and the other is something more visceral and physical. Where as Shit is just something you step in and say awwshit I stepped in shit, yes it is dirty and nasty but there isn't a clean version of shit that conveys it in a positive light. In terms of will I say it in front of my mother? nope but only because she would be offended by it, same goes with some of my coworkers, generally speaking if I know someone to be offended by language I do my best to keep it under control as a common courtesy to them and not because I am embarassed by it , If I am with friends or in a situation where I am comfortable and have no knowlege that someone will be offended then I am less careful. gabe

I read this thread and wonder, why?

A reason that comes to mind is perhaps Mike375 feels some need to cry out for attention and he has found this a way to get it.

I still mildly wonder why he needs the attention so badly but it's only a mild curiosity as I don't care that much. I've seen this before in him and others many times.

I have a young man in my employ that uses the same tactics and it seems to be some sort of resent factor prodding his off the wall antics. His father is in service and went off on assignment leaving the young man to fend for himself and grow up instead of taking him along for the secure ride.

The resulting "look at me" mindset is as obvious as it is with Mike375.

I don't know what Mike thinks he has missed but I hope he finds it someday before everyone disregards all of his childish rantings. Seems to be a good deal of intelligence flapping in the breeze doing nothing but screaming for a change of diapers.

out of curiosity I did a search of the site for several terms and here are the results for whatever they are worth.

Fuck Mike375 >>>-------> 13 matches
Mike375 Bullshit >>>-------> 10 matches

hope this answers his question.