Just was reading my new Traditional Bowhunter magazine, and found a very interesting article about the overuse of bugle calls during the rut possibly hurting elk reproduction/herd health. If you haven't read this one, please do so. It's in the Aug/Sep 2005 issue, starting on page 65: The Silence of the Bulls

Interested to hear what everyone has to say about this. It made a lot of sense to me anyway.

I would agree. There's way too much bugle calling (and everything else related to it) going on during bow season, and this activity IS hurting the elk. And the elk have wised up: many of these calling methods are not longer effective in the more heavily-hunted areas.

This'll open a can of worms, but in my opnion it's time for the long elk/bow seasons and over-the-counter elk/bow tags to be GREATLY curtailed. Here in most Oregon elk units, rifle hunters have to draw tags, and once we get past that hurdle we are rewarded with a brief five-day season. I can live with that, but not when the bowhunters beat-up the elk herds with a month-long season, unlimited tags, easy access, messing with the natural cycles of these herds with all of the calling activity, etc. It's all out of proportion, and the elk herds are showing the effects.

Enough is enough. If the rifle hunters must draw for limited tags and a five-day hunt, then so should the bow hunters.........

AD

quote:

This'll open a can of worms, but in my opnion it's time for the long elk/bow seasons and over-the-counter elk/bow tags to be GREATLY curtailed. Here in most Oregon elk units, rifle hunters have to draw tags, and once we get past that hurdle we are rewarded with a brief five-day season. I can live with that, but not when the bowhunters beat-up the elk herds with a month-long season, unlimited tags, easy access, messing with the natural cycles of these herds with all of the calling activity, etc. It's all out of proportion, and the elk herds are showing the effects.

Enough is enough. If the rifle hunters must draw for limited tags and a five-day hunt, then so should the bow hunters.........

Mr Day I think you nailed that one on the head.

I'm just curious. How many elk do Oregon bow hunters take a year? How many hunters? Success rate? How many rifle hunters? How many elk do they take? I'm not trying to beat up any just trying to understand the issue? I've heard that here at times from deer hunters but our dynamics are different.

Jeff

So whats stopping you guys from going bow hunting? Oh boo hoo your rifle season isn't as long as it used to be, my guess is because there are more rifle hunters, and quotas are met much sooner than they used to be... Hunting is huntign whiners that shun other forms of hunting do nothing good for the cause.

I think that article is BS plain and simple... there are more elk than there has ever been in this country and more bow hunting pressure than ever... and ya know what... There are quite a few states offer MORE tags... i.e. ID, MT, WY, CO all have opportunity for a second antlerless elk tag. Elk are going to breed one way or another, just because the can't hear one another doesn't mean they can't find each other...

Interestingly enough, they say that the worst calling situation is during muzzleloader season...

They are claiming that elk can't talk naturally to each other, leading to a harder time finding each other, delayed fertilization, and late-born calves = weaker animals left to survive the winter. I don't want to turn this into a bow vs gun debate, just wondering if you who are in the mountains during the rut seem to see their same observations.

quote:

So whats stopping you guys from going bow hunting? Oh boo hoo your rifle season isn't as long as it used to be, my guess is because there are more rifle hunters, and quotas are met much sooner than they used to be... Hunting is huntign whiners that shun other forms of hunting do nothing good for the cause.

I don't think anyone said anything about bow hunting just that tags should apply to them as it does to Rifle hunters. Have you ever tried bow hunting public land in Colorado? That should tell you all you need to know about excess bugling.

I've bowhunted Colorado elk for many seasons in the early 1990s. Never heard too much buggling-heck the only buggling was from elk!

In some cases it was sooo easy. Once we located the elk, we got them up close and personal within hours. BUT, we hiked and set up a base camp tent waaay back, away from any hunting pressure. During the four years that I hunted there, we only saw two other bowhunters.

Private land hunting was even better, with nice 5-6 pointers coming out of the woodwork even with my limited calling experience.

Allen, why not try bowhunting? It is another great way to experience hunting at its best. If it is not your cup of tea, I understand, but if you can't win against them, join them!

I have bowhunted since early 1987 and just took up muzzleloading this year. I started rifle hunting again only in 2001. By combining hunting methods, I have more flexibility and hunting opportunities.

Cheers,
CL

Interesting article and I have wondered on it myself after hunting Arizona with a bow during the rut.

But what evidence is there for this? Are there cows that go unbred and just how many late-born calves are there and how much worse is their first year survival? Sounds like some data were collected to substantiate this but more details would be appreciated.

Brent

I'm not against bow hunting if that's where someone's interest is, but I am in favor of equal opportunities for rifle hunters and bow hunters, including mandatory drawings, limited tags, shortened seasons, the same road closures, etc. Controlled hunter numbers, controlled access, and the resulting limited pressure during bow season will help the elk herds greatly. Other than that, I don't object if elk are bow-hunted during the rut, but I do think that hunters over-use elk call methods, and in some areas this over-use has not been healthy.

You can call in whining if you want to, but I'd say the bowhunting fraternity, at least in Oregon, must have indulged in plenty of whining themselves in order to achieve such wide-open disparity of opportunity compared to the riflehunters. Efforts to limit such pressures in the manner in which I've suggested have been introduced before, only to be shouted down in the legislature, be we'll keep on slugging. Hopefully, reason will prevail in time.

Lefty, I'm a rifleman. I'm not interested in bowhunting, nor do I mind rifle hunting post-rut, in closed-road areas, or during foul late-fall weather, etc. I've done it for over thirty years, and I enjoy it that way.........

AD

Reflections on bowhunting. My father in law convinced me one summer to get into bowhunting. So I went and spent the money on the bow and all the junk that accompanies that discipline.

We had a great deer setup where we hunted in Alabama, where I had a large 10 point buck patterned. Almost like clockwork, he woukd come up out of a deep ravine and feed just inside a food plot until dark or in the early morning.

We followed all the rules, wind, scent, off the trail, etc. Opening day came and I was in the tree stand 25' up in the air way before first light.

All of a sudden, as deer do so well, he "materialized"... exactly on the opposite side of the food plot, 80 yards away. Well, I said to myself, I'll be ready that evening. He came out again, EXACTLY opposite again. Mind you, I was practically SURROUNDED by other deer, so I knew I was undetected. I never saw that deer again and my bow, haven't see that either.

I went back to my rifles and never looked back. You know, there was a reason why the indians traded their bows for Winchesters........jorge

Without reading the article, I can't comment on it except to say that it sounds like horse-puckey !!! I was lucky enough to draw an AZ archery elk tag last year after 9 years of waiting. Tags are on the increase there, BECAUSE THE ELK POPULATION IS ALSO ON THE INCREASE !! All around us, bulls were bugling everywhere, not other hunters. We used bugle calls to good effect and brought in 5 bulls over 350 in three days of hunting. If elk populations are increasing in the southern rockies, maybe there are other problems up north, such as wolves. You have to realize something, anyone can write a magazine article. You can have the best credentials in the world, but that doesn't mean what you wrote is gospel.If you set your mind to it, you can pretty much prove or disprove anything to a reader by either only including certain statistics or deleting other statistics. Remember that old saying....only believe half of what you see and none of what you hear !!!

You guys that have bulls screaming all around you all day are either on private or not in Colorado hunting public land!

I have seen bowhunting in Colorado go on the decline for the last 20 years. Back in the 80's and early 90's, I would always go out and bugle in bulls. You could bugle into a basin and have 4 bulls answer you. Now you are lucky to hear one, and if you do, you have to decide if it is really an elk, or a hunter. Most hunters suck at calling elk, so usually you can tell though, LOL.

I am not sure why bow hunting numbers have gone up so much in Colorado, but I do know a limited unit is limited whether it be archery or gun, you still need to apply. I think the biggest downfall to rut is the muzzleloader hunters that swarm the woods right in the middle of archery season and the rut. Talk about a zoo.

Bulgling itself may not be the problem, hunter numbers may have more of an effect.

Here in Montana some units have a reputation for giant elk 410 417 come to mind. The rifle tags are very limited, 75 each unit as I recall, but bow hunters are on an unlimited regulated tag. ( This means you can bowhunt this unit if you want but only this unit, and only during archery season. At least this is how I read the regs, not the clearest wording I've seen.

The big complaint in these units is hunter numbers making it difficult to hunt on public lands. There were 1500+ hunters in 410 last year and less than 200 in 417. The elk are mostly in 410. Many units don't get half that number of elk hunters during rifle season so you can see how it might get crowded especailly in a unit that's mostly open country.

Trying to say since some of us havn't hunted CO bow season we don't know what we're talking about... doesn't really make sence...

Do you think the idea of the article is blown right out of the water by the mear mention of the ballooning CO elk population, not to mention across the west? Can you name a state that has had a significant die off or even has an elk population on the decline? (excluding the areas with wolf problems). If this was the case wouldn't CO elk population be shrinking insead of being the biggest its ever been? Or how about giving out a second elk tag and in some instances people getting 3 tags? With all that preasure and calling, you would think according to the article the elk should have all but become extinct, especially in CO.

Hunting preasure is hunting preasure. If you're running into that many people maybe you should park that ATV and strap on your boots... There are still plenty of places to hunt in CO amongst other states that aren't over run with people they are just more than a mile or three off the road or trail and a little farther from town than that short 30 min to hour drive...

As a mater of fact I'll be hunting CO on left over deer and elk tags on public land later this fall, and if its anything like the last few years... I'll bet I don't see more than one other hunter...

Just because an elk won't respond to your bugle doesn't mean much IMO... There are a multitude of reasons why the elk aren't vocal from one day to the next. I do believe that hunters trying to sound like an elk may have something to do with it though, the elk know if the call is fake or not for the most part IMO. I've all but about given up calling, spot and stalk is much easier IMO... The elk are looking for you or I should say the elk making the call verses the element of surprise
...

I hunt in areas that see very little if any bow hunting pressure and have had many a day when the elk won't respond, and have hunted the same areas where you could call them in with a whistle... I think people have this misconceptoin that if you toot your bugle the elk come running or respond every time...

I have just as good of luck sneaking in on a group of elk than trying to call one in. Even in those general OTC areas I hunt in MT during archery season... As a mater of fact last year I hunted a OTC unit on public land for 8 days and never saw another hunter or even heard one... and was only about 5 miles from the trail head... and due to the weather the elk were pretty tight lipped the entire time.

I do with some respect understnad the "plight" of the rifle hunter. But I don't think that they undersand how much more of an advantage they have over the average bow hunter.

Game manangement should be managed for the game and numbers and not how many days a rifle or bow hunter gets to hunt.

If you want to have more days in the field do what the rest of us do becuase our seasons are shorter, get a bow and step up to the challenge... Once you put in a little time with a bow you may realize thats its not all that easy to get an animal on the ground as compared to rifle hunting. I've all but about quit rifle hunting, especially elk. It just isn't that challenging to kill and elk with a scoped rifle from 3-400 yards away. Now getting in close for a 20-30 yard shot and having a perfect shot present itself then weaving an arrow in, is a little more of a challenge IMO. I don't think there is a more dissapointing and yet rewarding experience than bowhunting. And before someone spouts off about how I'm not a "real" hunter cause I shoot elk at 3-400 yards... I've probalby killed more elk than 90% of the people reading this... I've shot them from as close as 15 yards with a rifle to as far as about 400 yards, if you are any kind of elk hunter you know you kill elk when you can. If you can see em you can just about kill em with a rifle that is a fact. All one has to do is read posts about taking raking shots and needing a 338 mag to do it...

IMO if you want your rifle hunting days to increase, you need to equate the success rate, and if thats the case the bow season should easily be three times as long... even then the success rate will be hovering around 7-10% if that.

Lets say that rifle hutners take 3 times as many animals as the bow hunters, which is probably pretty conservitive probalby closer to 4 times. Even if you cut the number of bowhunting days in say half... The bow hunters are still not going to kill many less animals and they would only be able to increase the rifle days by a couple days, and harvest objective would still be met. I personally don't agree with the idea of saying since I don't get to hunt x number of days then you bow guys shouldn't be able to either! That sounds exactly what a democratic, whinner would say... no offence if your just a whinner and not a democrat...

I can see this thread becoming a bit heated, maybe. I love bowhunting, I love hunting with my custom rifles too. I only muzzleload hunt because Ohio requires a shotgun during deer season. I cannot imagine using a shotgun on a deer. Maybe if they had feathers on their butts I would.

Here's what I know: bowhunting is certainly more challenging than rifle hunting. For some of us, that is what we like, for others, not so, Jorge for example. Had he been rifle hunting, he would have bagged that buck. I grew up in north Alabama, can you imagine how many times that has happened to me? Same for Missouri, Iowa, SC, and AZ, KS, CO.

I like to bowhunt because I do get an extended season. And overall, I think my success rate is pretty damn high.

Allen Day, I realize it's not this way in every state, but to give you an example, I put in for rifle elk in unit 10 in AZ 2 years ago, but only because my odds of drawing a tag were HIGHER than an archery permit. I really wanted to bowhunt.

I think that if the bowhunters were as successful as rifle hunters, then you'd see a more restricted season overall. However, the statistics show that bowhunters are less successful on harvesting game.

Addressing the whole elk being educated topic, well, that to me is a no brainer. Sure they get educated with bugle calls/cow calls. But my friend, Adam, who has been filming elk in Utah and Colorado for over a decade, still to this day shows me annual footage where he is completely surrounded by 40+ head of rutting elk every year after he calls them up with a cow call. It's absolute madness, and the elk have not stopped communicating with each other to breed.

At least I've seen no evidence of this. Adam also stated that he rarely bugles unless he's just trying to locate a bull.

Ultimately, the best we can do is raise our level of awareness to those who hunt and are around elk the most---guides/outfitters/and you western guys. But, with hunting being the "big business" that it is, there's no way the calling will stop. At least I'm not convinced of it.

Regarding bowhunting in CO. I have a friend in Madison, Wisconsin that bowhunts around Pagosa Springs annually. He and his buddy go every year and always come back with 2 elk. Soft cow calls is the secret I guess. They always email pictures and stories of how the outfitters take hunters further up the mountain and always come down a few days later, "hey, ya seen any elk?"

"Yep, quite a few actually, including the 2 dead ones in my trailer."

Given the choice on hunting out west, I always prefer rifle over archery. Why? Because I want to fill that tag.

I dont think that bugle calls have hurt the elk population, but they have made elk more silent during the rut. After people started to bugle we have selectively eliminated the most aggressive and vocal bulls during the rut. The bulls that come into calls are shot; the less aggressive, less vocal bulls survive. This is much more common on heavily hunted public ground. Elk in areas that get lighter hunting pressure still seem to bugle as much as ever.

Ever wonder about the effects of spring turkey calling? Must be about the same as hunting elk during the rut.

Brent

quote:

Ever wonder about the effects of spring turkey calling? Must be about the same as hunting elk during the rut.

My experience is that it does affect gobbling in heavily hunted areas. It doesn't affect the number of birds just forces a hunter to change tactics a bit.

Jeff

Jeff,
I agree with your observations 100%.

But anytime you take a key feature of a species' life history and pound the hell out of it, I wonder how it canNOT have an effect in changing that species alot.

That said, I don't know of any data to support that change. Just something I've wondered about.

Brent

quote:

But anytime you take a key feature of a species' life history and pound the hell out of it, I wonder how it canNOT have an effect in changing that species alot.

I don't disagree with that at all. It is something that game managers need to look at when they set seasons. That's part of the issue that has been raised regarding the impact of bowhunters. When I first started bowhunting in the early 70's there were very few and the success rates were so low that archers had virtually no impact on game populations. That allowed for long seasons to be established which is great if you are a hunter. The trick that managers have consider is balancing the maximum amount of recreation provided to the most participants (more license income) while maintaining population goals. That's where this topic got steered off a bit in the bow/rifle debate. I love both so I'm not jumping in there. From a tactical hunting perspective animals are going to change their behavior in response to different types of pressure. Can happen with bugling elk, turkeys, call shy ducks, access to roads, changes in habitat... The consistantly successful hunter is going to be aware of those changes and adjust his tactics to match. To me that often means looking at what everybody else is doing and then doing the opposite. If the mountains are full of yahoo's blowing elk bugles like they were in the marching band then you can bet I'll be out there quiet as a mouse.

Jeff

Ivan: Yes indeed in many areas of the western United States Elk are still increasing and have been doing so for many, many decades! BUT - the northern Yellowstone Elk Herd is JUST ONE example of Elk herds that are being devastated population wise! The Northern Yellowstone Elk herd numbered 19,500 Elk in 1995 (the year the liberals foisted the Wolves on us!). That Elk herd is now at less than half that number - 8,500 animals!
So, yes, you have made erroneous declarations in your above postings!
Also they are erroneous in this regard - the Elk may still be going about the act of reproducing but the stress and the Wolf predation on this major herd has the live calf to live cow Elk ratio so low that it is not even self sustaining in several of our herds!
In other words not enough calves to replenish a herd even if there was no ongoing Wolf predation!
So you are going to have to consider this Elk herd and several others in Wyoming and Idaho before you make sweeping (and erroneous) statements in the future.
Indeed over the years I attended several symposiums given by the Montana Fish & Game officer that flies SW Montanas 10 Elk management units and he does the census surveys every year!
He flies each of these ten game units twice each winter/spring! He flies once when the Bull Elk still have the antlers and he can assess the bull to cow and mature bull to bull ratios. Then he flies the units again when calves are born. I was pleased that every year the Game biologist would report new and higher Elk numbers and mostly glowing census info on the mature Bull Elk!
Well all of a PC sudden (a few years back) the officer no longer (I am guessing here now but I feel the Wolf problem has interrupted some how the free exchange of information between government agencies and sportsmen!!!) comes yearly to our county sportsmen organizations meetings!!!
Make of that what you will.
I have my own strong feelings on this situation.
But a blanket statement like you made is misleading and was formerly true but no longer is.
The information about the present status of the Northern Yellowstone Elk herd was obtained by a newspaper reporter and had not been presented in any public forum that I am aware of. It was obtained by the reporter from state and federal sources.
Maybe the Elk herds in MD are all still increasing but here in the Rocky Mountains "times, they are a changin"!!!
Long live the Elk!
Thanks for NOTHING rmef!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG

Read the above post a little more slowly and you'll see the "(excluding the areas with wolf problems). "

And honestly to tell you the truth, I could give a phuck what you think..

I'm not sure why you make it your duty to highjack any thread that even mentions the word wolf.

BTW the areas that I hunt have wolf packs in them and have had for over 6-7 years now... The concensus... Still plenty of elk to go around.

As far as the elk in Maryland vs your "plight" in Montana... I'll put money on it that you weren't born and raised there...

Ivan: Oh sage and judge of who can post and of what they can say!
I will now repeat here for YOUR REFERENCE your OWN erroneous posting!
Please re-read YOUR posting and reconsider your erroneous and ill tempered (and foolish by the way!) latest postings!
LOL!
Maybe you will also want to reconsider your immaturity and ill-temperance? Naw - I bet not! That's what a real man would do though!
Keep that in mind!
Now if you are trying to tell Hunters in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho that the Wolves are not affecting Elk, Moose and Bighorn Sheep Hunting, their populations and Hunting opportunities in many areas then you my fine feathered friend ARE as stupid as you sound!
I made one posting on this thread (compared to your HOW MANY?) and you accuse me of "hijacking this thread"? Again Ivan - real mature there -you APPARENTLY are as stupid as you sound!
Or if you call stating the true and obvious facts regarding your furry fanged little friends a hijacking, then you and your infinite Nor'East wisdom are shown for what they are - laughable.
You, simply, even in your wildest dreams do not possess the power, not 1/100th enough power to stop me from doing anything! Especially from posting the truth and correcting you when it is neccessary regarding my favorite endeavor - Big Game Hunting!
I will correct you again now just for emphasis. Your posting is incorrect and full of happy word blather!
Here comes the corrections!!!
In addition to Hunting full time during the long fall season here and observing Wolves first hand not only then but throughout the winter months when I Hunt Coyotes - often near wintering Big Game herds - I KNOW what the Wolves are doing to our Game herds! In addition I spent considerable time during the long Spring Bear Hunting season here in the Rockies, Hunting Black Bear. I actually became sick this spring, from CONSTANTLY seeing Elk and Moose cows and calves being harried, followed and stressed out by Wolves! During one rainy week of Bear Hunting this spring I never saw ONE SET of cow calf tracks that did not have Wolf tracks following!!!
What did you find out about the Wolves in Maryland this spring Ivan?
I suggest you go to the nearest bookstore and read this latest issue of the rmef's "Bungle" magazine! Then ask the outfitters that wrote articles about diminished Hunting opportunities and diminished Elk herds and being forced out of business by your furry cuddly little friends - the Wolves! I think then it may dawn on YOU that no one gives a "phuck" about your opinion - erroneous opinions at that!
If you can refute one fact I have stated anywhere in this posting - DO SO! But be aware I will not hesitate to correct you if need be!
In other words if you want to try and pass off erroneous information to folks that read your posts do so at your own risk! One of the risks is me correcting you and I will correct you from now on each and every time you "miss-speak" lets say! Miss-speak regarding the damage Wolves are doing to our Elk herds and I think that is an important enough issue for me to "hijack" you - I mean, correct you.
Oh-oh more corrections coming your way right now Ivan - I hope you don't mind!
In the areas where the Northern Yellowstone Elk herds are under Montana Fish and Game control the Elk Hunting special permits have fallen from 2,200 PER YEAR only a few years ago to less than 190 this year! Do you perceive any lost Hunting opportunities in those facts Ivan?
Do you feel like retracting any of the drivel you have been espousing lately regarding Elk Hunting opportunities.
In addition Moose and Bighorn Sheep have been very appreciably harmed by the marauding little mascots you apparently covet!
Again I ask! Do you want to self correct any of the blather you are trying to pass off?
Here comes the exact copy of your post Ivan I suggest you re-read it and make the corrections to it that are needed! But again thats what a MAN would do so I do not expect much from you!
You just be patient Ivan and if there ARE Wolves in the areas you supposedly Hunt then YOUR Elk Hunting - unfortunately will diminish in quality just as sure as you will make more glaring errors!
And, that is a shame!
For your information Ivan 64% of the people who now reside in Montana were not born here! I am proud to be a Montanan now (8 years) and often boast that I moved here - that is no secret, and that fact adds no creedence WHAT SO EVER to your litany of errors and mistakes! What a worthless and immature argument that is Ivan! Does the fact I was born somewhere besides Montana in anyway shape or form exclude me from anything??? Even from correctiong you when you are wrong!
By the way I have Hunted in Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Utah and Wyoming since 1969! As well as my homestate of Washington since 1959. Virtually everyone of the years since 1969 I have Hunted Deer, Elk, Antelope, Game Birds, Turkeys, Bear and/or Varmints in Montana as well as at least one other state. I often Hunted Washington, Montana and Wyoming in the same years for various species. I been around. I simply suggest you not publicly and in person try to spread your erroneous blather in to many communities in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho! Lots of folks in those states are real uptight about your kind of stupidity being publicly professed. Take that advice or leave it - I could give a "phuck" less but I have always had a soft spot for the handicapped and you unfortunately are handicapped or should I say truthfully challenged?
At least I was smart enough to decide to spend the rest of my life in Montana. I think your decision to move to MARYphuckingLAND says enough about you for most outdoorsmen to gather in a good idea of what you are all about!
Thanks for nothing rmef!
Ivan buck up to it and try to gain some maturity and manliness - correct yourself before even more folks firm up their ill feelings about you!
I guess "someone" may call it hijacking but thinking people call it telling the truth! THE FIRST STEP in solving serious problems is telling the truth about a situation!
Enjoy Maryland!
Heres your entire post:

quote:

So whats stopping you guys from going bow hunting? Oh boo hoo your rifle season isn't as long as it used to be, my guess is because there are more rifle hunters, and quotas are met much sooner than they used to be... Hunting is huntign whiners that shun other forms of hunting do nothing good for the cause.

I think that article is BS plain and simple... there are more elk than there has ever been in this country and more bow hunting pressure than ever... and ya know what... There are quite a few states offer MORE tags... i.e. ID, MT, WY, CO all have opportunity for a second antlerless elk tag. Elk are going to breed one way or another, just because the can't hear one another doesn't mean they can't find each other...

And by the way Ivan trying to "exclude the areas with Wolf problems" - includes huge areas of Wyoming, Idaho and Montana! Thats quite an exclusion you are trying to sweep under your rug!
That "exclusion" won't fit under your rug and ain't flying Ivan!
Now with 1,000 Wolves in an area that was studied and promised to hold and be able to handle only 325 Wolves, well, if you don't see the problem you are simply trying not to or trying to be contrary for contraries sake - both of which are foolish to the max!
No your "exclusion" is simply more blather (we call it bullshit here in Montana)!

LOL!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I can't help but think hunter bugling may have an effect upon the behaviour of bulls in some areas where pressure is comparatively intense. In my area of residence I have witnessed the complete cessation of bugling by the elk once humans began bugling in earnest. I don't think this is co-incidental. Here, there is also great disparity between the rules for archers and rifle hunters but I don't really think this plays into it to any great extent but bugling does appear to. Keep in mind, this effect is observable mostly in the local herd and even so is not consistent. Pressure on the back country herds is much less simply because there is a lot of back country!
Ultimately, none of this has much effect upon my success rate which is virtually nil in any case! Regards, Bill.

Blah blah blah coming from a transplant... Like I said I could give a phuck what you think... transplant! Typical transplant mentality has to try and call me out as not being a "man"... Did I possibly touch a nerve with the tourist... Hmm lets see speaking of maturity you have to be pushing 60+/- years old... You write like a 12 year old off his ritilin...

I'd hate to be near you when you don't get your way. Reading your posts are bad enough I couldn't imagine it in person. I'll bet you kick and scream and throw yourself on the floor. That would be pretty funny to see a 60 year old man flailing around...

So you officially became a phucking out-of-stater in 1969 congratulations tourist!

If you were a true Montanan you would know what I'm talking about. Since you've lived there for as long as a second grader your ASS-sumptions and reading comprehension reflect that grade level, not to mention your grasp or paragraph and sentence structure.

You weren't even a "resident" of the state when they planted the wolves... THAT IS SOME FUNNY CHIT!!! And then you spout off to other people that they don't know cause they don't live in MT... You continuously spout off about the cheeto fed elk hunt going away... Times change and there is not much you can do about it now... Sitting there crying in your milk isn't going to make better... Has there been any other major impacts other than your continuous onslaught with the Northern Yellowstone cheeto fed elk herd?

Maybe if you lived in the state longer than 8 years and did more than just "recreate" here since 1969 you may have a different perspective on the subject... You would also know that the cheeto fed elk hunt hasn't been around all that long to start with. Just how long did they give out those 2200 tags? How many tags did they give out just 20 years ago in that same area?

You're a typical transplant know it all phuck'n out of stater that moves in and takes it upon himself to become "the game biologist". You continuously spout your pie hole about "intellectual idiots"... Since you're so smart doesn't that make you one? You claim to be much smarter than the rest of us and now you claim to be smarter than me since you now actually live in MT, apparently just crossing the state line made your IQ finally raise to the level of being legally retarted vs just an inbreed... IMO that makes you fit the exact definition for your stupid out-of-stater reference “intellectual idiotâ€â€¦ I think they should have used your reference instead of the one they used in Napoleon dynamite, I’ll bet you even looked like that kid when you where younger…

You remind me of the tourists from California or say Washington that moves to MT that wants it to be just like where the came from (no offence to anyone from California or Washington, I would never stoop so low as to include you with this "intellectual idiot")... I had very little respect for you before this, but now that I know what your true colors are... Go back to where you came from, and take the 64% of worthless out-of-staters with you...

Why don't you talk with some people that have actually lived in the state longer than you instead of using your 8 years of experience... to speak for them... I remember you telling me that you didn’t give a rats ass what my uncle thought about the wolf situation on another post… and since he was also born and raised in the state, was an outfitter and is a rancher his opinion didn't mater to you… because it wasn't your opinion... As a mater of fact I can’t think of a single real Montanan that I know that thinks the way you do with the wolves/elk thing… So to me that says it’s an intellectual transplant idea…

You have absolutely no clue what I do for a living or even where I live... I could be living in Maryland or I could be living in Montana... or... watching you through my spotting scope from as you sit at your computer naked stroking your "elk" in your living room in your trailer house in Dillon... (again no offence to anyone that lives in a trailer house...)

All I know is that I've lived in Montana a hell of a lot longer than your transplant ass, was born and raised here/there and my family has been there for longer than history has record... But our opinion doesn’t mater to you the “real†Montanan that spends his time phucking off hunting varmints and bear in the “Rocky Mountainsâ€â€¦ while the rest of us have to actually work for a living…

Oh chit I think I have you figured out! You retired in MT didn’t you? You’re the worst of the worst when it comes to transplants… You contribute absolutely nothing to the economy of MT except raising property taxes and making it extremely dificult for the younger people to even afford a house. Thanks again you worthless phucking out-a-stater! and you're doing it all while living on your social securty check...

Now that you're got your SECOND GRADE "Montana" education maybe you could comprehend the fact that I have never once said that I was for the wolves... Apparently they forgot to teach you reading comprehension in that out-a-state inbreed school you went to, (sorry I already mentioned that, but since you’re a “slow†reader I thought I would mention it again) (again no offence to inbreeds)... All one has to do is look at your writing ability to know you didn't get much schooln' where ever it was that you came from... You’re really contributing to the intellectual society of MT, actually I feel a little bit dumber every time after reading one of your posts… I coudln't even imagine being around you in person... I'd probably be wheel chair bound for life...

Also transplant... my posts were about the topic until you opened your stupid old ass mouth and shit started pooring out just like it always does...

Can you dispute the fact that the states I mentioned give out more than one elk tag??? While you're digging up those numbers why don't you show us where those areas are located in relation to the wolf populations... When you find the hunting areas in MT, how about you explain the fact that its in the heart of wolf country? Also if it isn't to much trouble for you since your're such a super smart guy how about you put up the states elk populations "then" and "now"... You might have to dig a little farther than 8 years...

Personally, I think Ivan and Varmintguy should get together and go bowling.

I think we should lock them in a closet, my $$ are on Ivan. BTW Ivan if you get by the Land of Magic in Logan, the drinks are on me.

Screw the wind, understand basic paragraph structure and get a handle on proper use of the use of the "Shift" key...