A friend took a GIANT Blacktail!!! Click on the link and scroll down.

http://www.huntfishwa.com/forum/index.php?topic=442.0

Maybe I'm not looking in the right place. but I can't find a photo.

me either.....150 pounds of BC score????

When someone finds the picture I hope they can post it I love seeing big Blacktails.
I grew up hunting Blacktails west of Eugene and they are still my favorite deer.

Would love to see a picture.

Thanks

ddj

I think I found the picture.

http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...il_taken#Post3450512

ddj

If you follow the links to more pictures you can see some other angles of the buck, very nice deer.
Very nice Buck but he has a Muley tail.
He also has Muley ears and face.
Benchleg is what we called those deer that are a Muley Blacktail cross. If he is in an area that B&C recognizes as a Blacktail area then none of that matters and he has a Blacktail in the books, but that buck is not a straight Blacktail.

I'm not sure why you cannot see the Pic?

I thought they had a double throat patch????

Beautiful Blacktail. A true trophy!!!

ddj

Cool buck

snellstrom, I believe blacktails are a subspecies of mule deer, nice buck

It's a Cascade Blacktail.

quote:

Originally posted by 375hnh:
snellstrom, I believe blacktails are a subspecies of mule deer, nice buck

The way I've heard it, it's the other way around. The blacktail migrated from Asia when the land bridge joined Asia and NA. As they continued to migrate east, they evolved to mule deer and whitetail so they are subspecies of blacktail. Could be wrong but I read that somewhere.

Actually from my perspective it matters not which Deer is a subspecies of which. A Blacktailed Deer has a tail similar to a whitetail but shorter with some black on the topside to go with the brown and white when they raise it, Mule Deer have a white rump with a scrawny little tail with a black tip. In the link you can find other pictures and that deer has a Muley butt and tail and Muley ears. Nice buck but I'm just pointing out its not a true blue Blacktailed deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
If you follow the links to more pictures you can see some other angles of the buck, very nice deer.
Very nice Buck but he has a Muley tail.
He also has Muley ears and face.
Benchleg is what we called those deer that are a Muley Blacktail cross. If he is in an area that B&C recognizes as a Blacktail area then none of that matters and he has a Blacktail in the books, but that buck is not a straight Blacktail.

Columbian Blacktail is a sub species of the mule deer so they can look like the mule deer.

"Columbian Blacktail is a sub species of the mule deer so they can look like the mule deer."



Who are you trying to fool!
I grew up west of Eugene Oregon and shot dozens of Columbian Blacktailed Deer.
Not one of which had a Mule Deer butt, tail and ears!
You only run into that configuration on a Deer where they are crossing with Mule Deer, where they ranges overlap.
Please stop with the armchair expert line I am speaking from experience, not some statements out of a book or internet wikipedia info.
scr83jp you ever seen or handled a Blacktailed Deer?
How about a Mule deer?

Slider please post the other photo that shows the Bucks butt. Once again that deer is not a Blacktail.

NOT!, a Columbian blacktail (period)

http://hunting-washington.com/...0;attach=47424;image
Don't know if this link will work but it shows the white butt that snellstrom mentions. Definately not blacktail. Maybe a cross.

The link works AGAIN it is a Cascade Blacktail!!!

http://www.huntfishwa.com/forum/index.php?topic=442.0

Slider
Please explain yourself. You keep saying "Cascade Blacktail".
Are you telling me that now there are 2 recognized "types" of Blacktails?

Sorry bud but it is not a Blacktail.
Your buddy got a very nice buck, pretty deer, however it is a Muley or a "Benchleg" (Muley Blacktail cross). "Cascade" is a region not a type of Blacktail Deer.

I have no idea what a blacktail deer really looks like other then what I’ve seen in pictures. I don’t know how true the following paragraphs are but I founded them interesting.

The Columbian Blacktail Deer
By Dan Gibson

For many years the Columbian Blacktail Deer has been considered a subspecies of the Mule deer, however recent DNA testing has proven this not to be the case. In Valerius Geist's informative book Mule Deer Country he explains that by testing the mitochondrial DNA (the mothers DNA ) of the three species (blacktail, whitetail and mule deer), researchers have now determined that it was the mating of Whitetail does and Blacktail buck's that gave rise to the Mule deer and not the opposite as was once suspected.

It is now believed that millions of years ago the Whitetail deer expanded its range down the east coast of the United States, across Mexico, and then back up the West coast, where it eventually evolved into the Blacktail Deer. This may help to explain the strong resemblance in appearance and psychological characteristics between the two. Thousands of years later as the recently evolved Blacktail's range spread eastward and the Whitehall's range again expanded westward, the two deer again met. At this point the Blacktail bucks, displaced the Whitetail bucks, and bred the Whitetail does. Researches now believe that it is this hybridization that produced what is now know as the Muledeer.

For those of you not familiar with the Columbian Blacktail, their range, as recognized by Boone and Crockett (B&C), extends form central British Columbia, south to the Monterey Bay in California. Columbian Blacktails inhabit a narrow strip of land from the shores of the pacific ocean inland for approximately a hundred miles. This distance will of course vary from location to location

In regards to the geographic boundaries of the Columbian Blacktail one must rely on the observations of wildlife biologists, graduate students and scientists, who have done extensive scientific research and identification on the Columbian Blacktail and it's range. I wish it was as simple as having years of hunting experience in order to be able do identify the possible genetic make-up of a particular deer, but unfortunately it isn't. This is why DNA is such an important tool in deer identification.

Okay Mick thanks for further muddying the waters, now lets move on to the Roosevelt Elk/ Rocky Mountain Elk debate.

"In regards to the geographic boundaries of the Columbian Blacktail one must rely on the observations of wildlife biologists, graduate students and scientists, who have done extensive scientific research and identification on the Columbian Blacktail and it's range. I wish it was as simple as having years of hunting experience in order to be able do identify the possible genetic make-up of a particular deer, but unfortunately it isn't"

Mick please understand that this is your authors opinion and not a general consensus. You don't have to be a college educated meteorologist to know its going to rain when you see a storm coming and you don't have to have a Doctorate to tell a Mule Deer from a Blacktailed Deer. The only time the lines get blurry is when they are crossed with each other.

Please has anyone here ever really seen a Blacktailed Deer and a Mule Deer in person?
People this is not that difficult.

Sorry Snellstrom, I really never gave Blacktails much thought before this thread. I found the theory on how the deer species evolved interesting and thought I would share it. If it muddied the water I apologize it was not my intent. As I said before, I don’t know what is true or not but the conversations on the topic sparked my interest.

Sorry Mick I guess I am a bit exasperated by this thread, I am not upset at you.
The thread would die on its own if people knew what a Blacktailed Deer actually looks like and could compare that to what a Mule Deer looks like.

Well I've never seen a blacktail with a white rump, at least not in California between Point Arena and Monterey. Maybe somewhere else they do? To further confuse the issue, south of Monterey, B&C says we are hunting mule deer but the deer on the central coast of California don't have white rumps either

Snellstrom, or anyone that has seen blacktails. Please set the record straight.

From the pictures I’ve seen (the web is full of bad pictures). The blacktail deer is:

1. Look like a Whitetail deer in stature.

2. They don’t have a white rump patch.

3. they have a skinny longer black tipped tail. Longer than a Muledeer but shorter than a Whitetail. With no flaring flag hair on it like the Whitetail.

4. It has antlers like a Muledeer, forked, not the continues single beam with points like the Whitetail.

The one thing I’m having trouble with (if everything above is right) is how much do they weigh? I’m not getting a good feel on how big they are.

Mick
Your info is correct as you listed it. As for their weight it can vary because they have a big range from north to south that they may be found in and although their range from east to west is not large in miles it can vary from near timberline to apple orchards to Coastal Mtn brush and steeps. Some deer near the coast or down south in California may top at 100 pounds where a Big Buck on the West side of the Cascades in Oregon or Washington could be 180 live weight. I shot a Buck when I was a kid between Eugene and Crow Oregon that was 130 lbs field dressed. Hope that helps with your questions.

Thanks Snellstrom, I think I have a good handle on what a Blacktail is now.

AGAIN!!! It is a Cascade Blacktail!!! This is from the NW Big Game Recod Book top 10 taken with a rifle for WA. State!!!

Top 10 List
* These lists are based on the last printing of their respective record books *

State Search:
Washington - Blacktail Deer, Typical - Cascade (Rifle) [maps]



1. 166 4/8 Klickitat County 1978

2. 165 7/8 Klickitat County 1998

3. 165 0/8 Snohomish County 1993

4. 162 7/8 Yakima County 2001

5. 162 1/8 Klickitat County 2004

6. 161 2/8 Klickitat County 1950

7. 160 4/8 Klickitat County 1946

8. 160 1/8 Klickitat County 2002 (Youth)

9. 159 3/8 Klickitat County 2001

10. 159 0/8 Klickitat County 1976

Here is the link to the Record Book!!! http://www.nwbiggame.com/top_10.cfm

The way I read the map provided by Slider, then a Cascade Balcktail Deer is actually a Mule Deer and not a Blacktail. Look at the little scale on the bottom of the map.

You need glasses!!!

I did not furnish any map???

That is a map of OREGON!!!

If it's a Mule Deer then why wouldn't it be called a CASCADE MULEDEER!!!

You are looking at a scoring reference for Boone and Crocket!!! I never said ANYTHING about Boone and Crocket!!!

Look at the TOP of your MAP!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:
You are looking at a scoring reference for Boone and Crocket!!! I never said ANYTHING about Boone and Crocket!!!

If you didn't use B&C scoring, then how did you arrive at the mid 150s score the title of this thread has then?

As for the map, you practically provided it to me when you posted the following link: http://www.nwbiggame.com/top_10.cfm Sorry, you're offended by my checking out your website and posting the maps.

I did post of map of Oregon, my bad. So, here is a map of WASHINGTON.



Looks like they (B&C) classify the 'Cascade Blacktail' differently between Oregon and Washington, regarding the scoring boundaries.

Just for the record, I checked Boone and Crockett and here is their definition regarding Mule Deer and Columbia Blacktail boundaries.

quote:

The current boundary for mule and Columbia blacktail deer is as follows:

Washington — Beginning at the Washington-British Columbia border, the boundary line runs south along the west boundary of North Cascades National Park to the range line between R10E and R11E, Willamette Meridian, which is then followed directly south to its intersection with the township line between T18N and T17N, which is then followed westward until it connects with the north border of Mt. Rainier National Park, then along the north, west and south park boundaries until it intersects with the range line between R9E and R10E, Willamette Meridian, which is then followed directly south to the Columbia River near Cook.

Boone and Crockett doesn't recognize a "Cascade Blacktail", which they only recognize a Columbia Blacktail, Sitka, or Mule Deer. It appears that only a "Cascade Blacktail" is recognized by the Northwest Big Game, Inc. group per Slider's website link.

Regardless of the fact, if the buck was taken in Snohomish County, WA it would be officially scored as Columbia Backtail.

Based upon both the Oregon and Washington maps, a "Cascade Blacktail" appears to occur in a transition zone where true Columbia blacktails and mule deer can cross breed, which would give this "Cascade Blacktail" deer.

Slider,

As for you, your buddy took a very nice deer that anyone would be happy to call their own, regardless of classification.

As for your personal attacks towards me, you might want to back up and think about it for a second before doing it again, you're not dealing with an average cat here. I won't stoop down to your level, I'm better than that.

Their was no attack by me to anyone on this site? Quit the opposite. I simply stated it was a Cascade Blacktail nothing more and nothing less? Just because there is not a classification recognized by Boone and Crockett does not mean they don't exsist? Take for instance a California Bighorn? They are lumped together with Rocky Mt. Bighorns by Boone and Crockett. I am open to public apologies. Thanx