I just had a friend tell me he has made one shot kills on elk at 400 yds, offhand. It was all I could do to keep from laughing! There is so much wrong with that statement...and this from a man who teaches his 13 y.o. daughter to take potshots with a .243 at 300 yds! Sad, indeed. I have killed elk at 450 yds. and now I wonder what I was doing shooting so far. Lighting conditions, snow, and a canyon made it seem much closer. 300 yards is my personal maximum (when I recognize 300 for what it is!).

Those with the experience of shooting at ranges past 350 yards have wounded and lost game. If you make a habit of this practice you will sooner or later lose animals that were better not shot at. I consider shooting at game animals under uncertain conditions unsporting and asinine and there is no excuse for it.

what did i say?

I guess this thread has changed from "What is long range?" to "How to shoot and hunt long range." and/or "I can find a dozen adverse conditions that prohibit long range."

NelsonTed

How do folks find the critter? As explained a bit by Ray, Alaska it's a fairly simple process provided the hunter is not someone that gets so excited that can't even remember to breath. Think about just two of the normal knowns for a minute, distance to the critter (measured), probably shot from a commanding position (elevated firing point, a hill or stand). The hunter knows where he/she is when the trigger is pulled, the distance to the critter is also known. It's as simple as picking an prominent object in-line with and on the far side of the critter and walking toward that object until the back measured distance matches the distance shot. There are other methods too, Surveyor tape the shooting position or if it's dusk use a chem light or minimag light to mark the shooting position. Take a compass bearing to the site the critter was shot if you like and walk that bearing for xxx yards. Or have you hunting partner walk you to the critter. There are tens of ways to get it correct but they pretty much all require some thought and not a helter skelter mad dash to where you think the critter should be located.


AnotherAZWriter

I guess if a 10 mph wind is sufficient to move me around shooting from prone I'd lower my mainsail a bit . Nearly all of my longer range shots are from prone. If I can't shoot from prone then the shots are naturaly going to be close(r) range.

35Whelen

Seems like you're headed down the bent stick and flint point path. I use a rifle, bullets, compass, gps, laser, rope, knife, etc.

It's always good to have some experience at long range shooting before hunting using the same methods. BTW, there are some types of long range matches where the distance IS NOT known, very much like hunting. These same type matches also don't allow two (2) sighters like NRA highpower, it's first round on target or you're gonna lose. Folks that do this type of shooting know more than the number of clicks to get from 200 to 300 and then from 300 to 600, hell they even have 100 yard zero information for first and subsequent shots.

You're correct (a bit) about the 6" of drop for a 25 yard error in ranging but you're talking about cartridges like the 308 Win at sea level. Boost that to a 300 Win Mag at 6,000' ASL and 40 degrees temp and you've opened that 25 yard window to 45 yards on the far side and 55 yards on the near side, a 100 yard wide area.

Folks are out to hunt the way that bring pleasure to themselves, to enjoy the experience. I wander around, find a place I like and glass for critters, if I see one and it's in range and the conditions are good I shoot, 50 yards, 100 yards, 400 yards or whatever.

When I'm hunting squirrels I shoot from the ground even if they're waaaayyyyy up in the top of the tree, I don't climb up there to get closer before I shoot.



Like I said earlier, you know it's long range (even if it only 50 yards) when someone else goes in the "What was that idiot thinking?". Long range is not determined by the shooter, it's determined by the lowest common denominator amoung all the other hunters.

ANYONE WHO thinks those of us who CAN kill cleanly at extended range, ONLY take those shots is so far off base...

3/4 of the years hunting activities I engage in I use either 1- A BLR in .358Win OR a Marlin GG in 45/70.
NOW
These are not exactly the rounds us "irresponsible unethical" long shooters would choose for the next 1200yd shot at the fawn, but there is enough elevation in play to easily clear the kids at recess in the school yard.

My other choice for moose when I go is the .375H&H again not exactly one you see on the line at Camp Perry for the 1000yd match.

Each person has to judge their skills and their responsibility as to what they bring to the hunt. I shoot at 1000yds becasue it is a real test of skill and equipment, but a tremendous test of MYSELF, I do NOT get shooting at 100yds or 200 yds. It is education that tells me I can consistently hit at the "medium ranges" of 300-400 & 500 yds with confidence. I will hit what and where I am aiming. I would be willing to wager the "long shooters" put in multiple amounts of time and energy and money into their shooting and skill development then the guy who says anything over 200yds os too long, becasue he can't hit anything past that range and refuse to LEARN the skills to do so.
YEP, I use lazers and even my laptop out when I am at 1000 becasue it has a ballistic program that takes all the variables and computes them out so I know what to expect.
I place wind flags down range and see how the wind moves so I know the bullet will or will not be effected. Temperature, humidity, look at all of it. Some days I may spend 6 or 7 hours out there and will only fire maybe 60-80 rounds out of the .340 as I tweak numbers and play with the conditions.
NOW
ANYONE who says THAT practice has NO application to real world hunting, has never done it. WHY does a 3/4ing wind in your face at 20mph for a 1000 yd shot NOT have any bearing on a 400yd shot with that 20mph 3/4ing wind even though you are using the EXACT same equipment and loads? I KNOW EXACTLYwhat the effect should be.
I apologize, but the logic is lost on me.
At 400yds I shoot a rifle that will group UNDER 4" all day long. I can shoot THAT rifle under 4" at 400yds all day long. HoW big is the kill zone on the average animal considered "big game"?
WHY is that considered such a horrible shot and so unethical? If I can flat ass guarantee I can place every round inside the kill zone at 400yds, WHY is that so "horrible" for me or anyone else who can do it? Why is THAT any different then the guy who "ethically" knows he can only kill cleanly at 200yds so he shoots them at 200yds with his combination he may NOT have spent so much time with because "heck, I only shoot out to 200yds",?

I hope you guys realize I'm responding to myself rather than pick one person to attack, I hope this doesn't get too personal.

The question I have is not are people capable or is it always wrong. One has to do long shots when there is no other way to do it. But do I ever think it's wrong to do it because you think you're Captain Kirk shooting phazer blasts just because you can.

I wonder how many of you "long range" guys are discussing this topic like the old time theorists that wondered how many angels would fit on the head of a pin.

Walking 400 yards and finding drips of blood that are a half inch across and spaced several feet apart is responsible? With no footprint to follow? Boy people are optimists. How about passing up the shot?

Some of you guys are pretty optimistic and I'm afraid some are just fools. I think this should be a topic called "Long Range Sniping" not hunting

stubble - the problem is that a person can cover 50 yards much faster than 400 yards, thereby giving the animal much less time to "disappear....."

This is a joke. The pure unadultrated BS that people will come up with to justify their lack of ethical conduct is without limits.

Now long range hunting is supposed to be more ethical than close up.. Keep selling it tailgunner, some fools are probably dumb enough to buy it.

A rule missing in my opinion is long range shooting should not be undertaken if wind cannot be judged correctly or if it is in excess of 20 MPH. This is especially important past 300 yards.

Friend, I agree that wind is the more critical factor when shooting at longer ranges, I also agree with tailgunner that those least familiar with shooting at long ranges seem to be those quickest to condemn the idea.

Im getting the sense that there are shooters/hunters who belong in different categories that are coming at this from entirely different angles.



1) there are the more common hunters who practice at as much as 300-400 yds but prefer 150-250 yd shots. That would be me.



2) there are the truly capable long range shooters who even though confidence, probability, and equipment are up to the task might just try to get closer anyway. But if they choose to squeeze one off @ say 500 yds it will have as much probability of hitting home as a 300 yd shot from someone like myself. Of the entire ARF membership I would bet that there arent many more than about 10 of these guys who truly put in the nessecary range time to stay that sharp.



and 3) we have the yahoos who simply dont care, wont listen to reason and would take whatever shot they feel like irreguardless of wether they are up to the task or is just a bad idea, and in fact they might just feel that the longer the shot the bigger the returns to their already over-inflated egos.



#2 I have no problem with, #3 is a different story.

RickT300

Like it has been stated before, it entirely possible that a normal shot for one person MAY be a long shot for another. I personally don't think of my shots as long shots and I'd imagine other hunters feel the same. To me/us these are normal distance shots, it's folks like you that think they're long distance shots.

You state and question "Another question, what is this false pride you guys seem so happy with trying to justify long range shooting? It is a much better thing to be man enough to pass the long shots and try to get closer than to just sit down and take an unreasonably long shot."

To answer the question directly (and again), I don't see them as long shots, they're the normal distance I shoot....YOU are the one having the problem with the distance(s), YOU are calling it long.

How long has it been since you had an acceptable shot (one you normally take and make easily) and just decided not to take it because perhaps someone somewhere would think you were shooting outside their limits. I'm sure there is someone (maybe even an entire group of someones) somewhere that'd think shooting mule deer at 300 yards is unethical and yet you state you do this. Are you prepared to knuckle under and bend to their wishes (however foolish it may sound to you) and shoot no further than xxx (something less, maybe considerably less than 300) yards.

Point is... You take the shots you want and can make and let other folks take and make the shots they find acceptable.

my question is: could he have stalked closer than 500 yards to this coues deer? if so, why take a risky shot that could wound or maim the animal and ahve it run off? 500 yards is a long way to go to BEGIN a tracking job, and finding the exact location where the deer was standing when it was hit is not easy, either.

At close in distances, the odds are greater that you will be shooting at a nervous, alert, adrenen(sp) charged, or running deer (as opposed to the calm, relaxed standing/feeding shots that are typical at the further distances), all of which make good hits more difficult and runs tend to be longer for a equil hit. Besides the # of shots taken under 100yd exceeds the # taken at over 300, so even if kill/loss ratio is the same, your still going to lose more deer in close.
I also know to many "up close and personal" guys that swear they need at least a 7Mag (338RUM prefered) to recover the deer they shot (at), on a bait pile, 25yds away, these same guys "know" that a 30-06 just dosn't have the power to kill a deer at 300yd, because they have lost so many after "hitting them perfect" over the same 25ys bait pile (and if it's not laying within plain sight, of the bait pile, afterwards they don't even go looking).
Personaly I'd rather hunt with someone that is proficant, practiced and prepaired to shoot at 3-500yd than the guy that sights in his rifle with a pie plate at 25yd and calls it good enough when he get's 3 out of 10 into a 9" circle (and that's off sandbags!!!!!). Go check out a public rifle range pre-season, and tell me which group you'd rather hunt around, the short range blasters (I got a 20 round clip for my 7Mag BAR, ain't gonna loose that fawn this year) or the long range ready (one in the mag, one in the chamber, 3 in my pocket, going home with meat and 4 rounds) guys?

Rickt300

See, there's your problem...

You state/question "...or even tell if it's hit. "

Long range hunting is not generally about IF an animal can be hit, it's about WHEN the animal is hit. When the shot is iffy it's probably not taken.

If you're a serious long range hunter you know the animal will be hit and you know where to go to retrieve it. There are also a dozens of other things you'll know; that the animal will exhibit something when it's hit, that if they're (the animals) alerted they react differently than if they're calm, that often the selected animal will fall dead on the spot and the remaining animals will give a brief glance and go back to normal activity. Too much information already.


CoBrad

I guess long range is that distance where someone somewhere will throw thier hands in the air upon hearing the distance and cry "What was that idiot thinking?". With the crowd I hunt with long range is a long way, 600 yards easily. We don't generally hang with folks that can't shoot well so there's no one to hold up the antilong range banner/flag at each long shot taken.

I'd guess that for most folks long range would be that point at which something must be done other than the ordinary, either a scope must be adjusted or the trajectory must be compensaterd for by holding high... A point past where the walking around rifle data will not be correct for the shot.

I always carry a laser rangefinder, I don't carry a barometer, I do check the altitude for the region I'll be hunting, I factor wind(s) but don't carry a wind meter, I consider temperature but don't carry a thermometer.

The first item that needs to be established is what weapon is being used. For an iron sighted revolver, I consider 100 yds long range, even 75 yds can be a challenge. For an iron sighted rifle, firing a medium velocity round, ie 2000-2400 fps, 150-200 yds is long range. For a scoped rifle with a 2700-3000 fps load, 300 yds becomes long, for the zingers generation 3300+ at the muzzle, 350 yds becomes reasonable.

My thought on long range is, it is the range at which mild-misjudgement of range, ie being 10-20% off will cause a wound or a miss. If I have to use a lazer, and dial in the elevation on the scope, or use mil dots to compensate, then it's long range.

I honestly think the number of hunters who have the equipment, skill, and practice regularly for 400yd and over shots are limited. I also question those shots that require a spotter shot to be taken to confirm windage and drop before taking the terminal shot.

Even though long range shots don't hold much interest for me, I have a bit more respect for the capable long range shooters then the knuckle draggers that open fire on anything that moves.

I kind of like shooting deer within archery range. I just do it with a .308. It's nice to know if the big fella steps out at 300 yards, I can drop him.

My long range distance is this: If I know the distance and know my rifle and I are capable of the shot and I can hold the crosshair steady and the environmental factors are conducive for me to shoot, I pull the trigger.

I make it a habit to know where my bullets hit out to 450 yards before I hunt. I keep trajectory tables either taped to the gun or in my pocket. And I do not derive any info from some book. It is all derived from range time.

However, let me say, to the best of my recollection, I have never ever shot at or killed an animal beyond 375-400 yards. Yet, If I had a trophy at 425-475 and everything was as 'perfect' as possible, I would not hesitate to shoot with my 300 Ultra Mag, 200grain bullet (28" barrel).