Hello from Scotland ~

I recently read an old article named as above, writtern by Ralph T.Walker

In the article Mr Walker speaks of the ultimate White tail bullet in .30-06, he goes on to decuss his frustration with 150/165 gn bullets that are frequently recommeded for such game.He goes on to say that while killing deer often even with a "perfect" heart/lung shot they can travel enough distance to make it hard to find at last light. His point being that while 165 gn etc have plenty of energy most of it sails out the other side into the woods!

In his search for "the ultimate bullet" he looked for a bullet that would "DUMP" its energy into the deer thus effecting a instant kill and drop to the shot.

His trails lead him to the speer 130 gn hp, not our first thought of a deer bullet, how ever he found them totally devasting, completely breaking up inside the body cavity with out exciting thus 100% energy transfer ! As for meat damage he found it no worse than other bullet.

Mr Walker makes some good points and obviously it works for him like his article say its only ones man opinion , what yours ???

Englander.

I've shot a lot of deer over the years, and I've used a lot of different calibers. The best luck I've had for an instant kill is a 154 Gr. Hornady from a 7 MM Rem at about 3000 fps. Every deer shot with this combination in the lungs has dropped on the spot. I shot a medium sized Mule deer a couple of days ago with a 180 Gr. Hornady from a 300 Win Mag. I expected the same results, but I ended up following a blood trail for over 100 yards. This is the longest I have ever had to trail a deer shot through the vitals. When found the exit wound was fist sized with one lung protruding through the hole.

I've had this same theory for years. But it's hard to convince fellows that less is always more! So many rifles-- magnum blaster or not-- can't utilize their full energy and power potentials. For example, if you have a supercharged big-block motor with amazing horsepower, what good does it do a fellow if he can't put that energy on the ground? Who cares if the tires are premium grade and of the highest quality, if they can't transfer the power effectively and completely? I view bullets and velocity in the same way.

Give me a faster, more explosive bullet with a lower BC for any non-dangerous game. If it has a hollow point or BT, watch me get giddy. Beans to full penetration! I'd rather see an animal anchored where it stands that deal with a tracking job, no matter how short. Reducing meat loss is best done by NOT loosing the whole animal.

This fellow is right on.

[ 10-27-2002, 01:09: Message edited by: waldog ]

You make the point for the 150grnNoslerBallisticTip in the 30cals
..same reason they all make exploding thin walled hollow points for varmint bullets.



[ 10-27-2002, 02:11: Message edited by: CaptJack ]

Check out the pic's from the kids first deer. This was with a Nosler Partition. What's it going to look like with the hide off? Maybe sometimes less is better.

I've seen lots of deer, and elk class stuff, killed. Every once in a while, say one out of ten, or one out of 20 deer will not go right down with a good lung shot from anything. Magnums, with fast opening bullets, included. If the animal is alarmed, the chances of anchoring him are much reduced.
If you are shooting at last light, then take that into consideration. Break a shoulder with a good bullet and he should be down. But you never know just where you hit him until you do it, and get your hands on him. All sorts of things can happen. You can pull the sights off target at the last moment, or hit an obstruction you didn't see, etc.
This is why I insist on a really good bullet. I insist on a blood trail, and plenty of penetrating power. That gives me a full range of options. And a blood trail if I shoot a particularly tough animal.
Miss those ribs by much, and that fragile light bullet will destruct on the shoulder. I've seen animals travel with surface wounds. Even with a broken shoulder from one.
Theorys are fine. What works, especially when things don't work out as planned, are what I want. E

I agree with every word that Eremicus wrote above. I can shoot well and I practice a lot but I am never positive where the bullet will hit. I have seen deer switch ends at the last second as the rifle fires. I also will shoot at a running buck if it's close. A fragible bullet would not let me reach the boiler room on a going away shot.

On the other hand I like for the game to drop on the spot. I don't like to trail game at all. I can do it but it really bothers me until I find the game. So I use the .358 Win with flat nosed bullets for woods walking. This combination has far more effect than the calibers mentioned so far but at long range I would select a round similar to the ones discussed and have the same problems that Eremicus knows about. Once I was woods hunting with a varmint load in my 7mm Rem Mag. I think it was a Hornady 120 gr HP. A small spike got up and ran and he was very close, I caught him at the top of his bound and made a good hit in the ribs. The deer continued to run! even though hit with over 3000 ft lbs of energy. I said to myself "what are you doing with that load, now you have to find him and there is no snow". But the little spike pilled up and the bullet had hit a rib and it blew the skin off that side but some fragments must have gone inside and I got away with it. There was no blood trail.

It's time to refer to the proper reference again.

www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/myths.html

I've used 150, 165, and 180 gr. bullets in the .30-06 on a fair number of mule and whitetail deer over the last thirty years. I've always had the best results (meaning quickest and most dramatic kills) on deer with 150 gr. bullets at somewhere between 2900 & 3000 fps. MV, and always plenty of penetration regardless of the shot angle. I've used Hornady bullets in the .30-06 for the most part.

I'd be leary of lighter bullets for general deer hunting..........

AD

Granted he's entitled to his opinion, but I don't have to agree with it--franky, I say he's full of shit.
I've had the same hogwash fed to me my whole life. All the B.S about most of the energy being deposited into a tree behind the animal. I've see lots of animals shot with the .30-06 and a couple shot with the .270. All were using moderate or heavy for caliber soft point bullets--from 150 gr Hornady Spire Points to 180 gr Sierras in the .30-06 and 150 gr Cor-Lokts in the .270. All were lung shots, not a single one ever took another step. In fact the only one that nearly got up was a muley buck I personally shot with my .270 at about 40 yards. I put the Cor-Lokt SP behind his shoulder and it exploded. Sure it made a mess of him, but he was kicking so much I thought he was gettin up. I shot him again just to be certain.

Furthermore, we have to shoot elk with the same rifle and load. If it won't penetrate a deer, then we are looking at serious penetration issues on elk.

We shoot things to poke holes in em. That is the bottom line. Two wholes are better than one. Under some circumstances, I can understand not having complete penetration issues. But if a bullet fails to fully penetrate too many times, or blows up even once, I begin to doubt its performance on game.

You wanna please me with a bullet. Show me good initial expansion with perhaps a little weight loss and some energy deposit. Then show me a large exit wound.

If the deer runs after you shoot it in the lungs with an 06, God hates you.

Agreed. Energy doesn't kill. Holes kill. The bigger the holes the better they kill. End of story.

Personally, I like exit holes because of blood trailing, faster bleed out, amongst other. JMO, Dutch.

FarRight,
Boy, I guess God must really hate me. In 30 years of hunting deer with my 30-06 I'd guess probably 75% or even higher have run when punched through the heart or lungs. Generally not that far and there is always a good blood trail to follow but seldom have I seen them drop without taking out part of the skeletal or nervous system. I have used 150's, 165's, and 180's over the years. I've pretty much settled on 165 gr. partitions for deer because my old Model 70 shoots them better than 150's. I guess I've bowhunted for so long that following a short blood trail really doesn't bother me much. The trick is to get them to run toward the truck when you shoot.

Jeff

I used to shoot 140 grain Ballistic Tips in my 7MM Mag for whitetail and have good luck with them. But I shoot 160 grain Nosler Partitions now and they really hammer a whitetail. since switching to the partitons I have not had to look for an animal, they just pile up where you shot them and usually go down like like being hit between the eys with a sledge hammer. Most of my shots are fairly long range (around 300 yards)as I hunt on soybean, alfalfa, and winter wheat fields. The main reason I switched was mainly I wanted to shoot the same bullet for whitetail, Elk, or anything else I wanted to hunt.

Everybody is entitled to his opinion, even if it's wrong. The 165 grain bullet is just right for whitetails with plenty of power to spare.

Normally, I read what gunwriters say with a little scepticism but on this subject they nearly all agree. Could they and the ammunition makers ALL be wrong? No, the light bullet advocate is a nut.

Then what about Big Stick and his 100 gr XLC's at 3700 out of a .257 Weatherby? Either he is wrong or this is the cutting edge of ballistic performance if it's reliable.

A .257 Weatherby recoil is tolerable and it shoots flatter than just about anything. It's true that the barrel's are long and the rifle is not handy for woods use.

If we are looking for an improvement on the tradeoffs of recoil, trajectory and terminal ballistic's where do we turn?

Of course a short "varmint" bullet in a 30/06 is the wrong answer as we all agree here.

Generally speaking, I don't think there is a "sacred weight" of bullet for game. You can find baskets full of bullet failure stories as well as great success stories.

Assuming an animal is hit in the vitals, I think the real issue is the bullet's performance more than whether it weighed 150 grs or 180grs.
Performance to me means when and where did the bullet expand, blow-up or whatever. Sierra has been so erratic in the performance category that I quit using them years ago. Hornady has always been the most consistent.

But I think if your bullet doesn't "perform" correctly, then it doesn't matter what the weight is.

As for deer running after being well shot, I contend this is largely a function of their excitement level at the time of the shot. Frightened deer, pumped full of adrenaline will often do some spectacular things even with their lungs shot out of them. A deer ambushed by a silent hunter usually drops in his tracks. The difference is one is super charged on adrenaline and the other isn't. JMHO