A friend and I were having a debate about what is best for bear protection (black and grizzly). He says a pump 12 gauge with rifled slugs, and would go for a chest shot. I said big bore rifle, with a heavy-for-caliber Barnes X bullet, and would go for the head.

My case is the soft lead of a shotgun slug probably won't penetrate the skull or chest very well, being so soft. He said that the impact of the heavy slug will at least slow a charge, allowing him to fire again. He said a rifle is too slow of fire, and that the head is too small of a moving target. I said you got to break them down, by going for the brain box. He'd prefer a chest shot, to take out the lungs and heart. I said that a lung shot bear can kill you while it's dieing.

What do you guys think? Can a soft rifles slug penetrate a bears skull all the time? Is a rifle too slow for repeated fire?

There is a excellent arguement for both so I'm going to suggest X's loaded in a pump shot gun.

They do make a shotgun sabot I believe.

I have no experience whatsover being from Australia but I love to hypothesise.

But I am going to suggest a CZ Full Stock Carbine in 9.3x62 loaded with woodleigh 320 gr RN's, the battue model would also work. It would be not to heavy, take 5 in the mag and one up the spout for a six shooter and would pack plenty of whollop as well as have a good level of peneration. I would opt for a 2.5x compact leupold in warne or talley QD's. Irons could be iether peep or island express zeroed for 50 yards.

Should one decide to use a shotgun, the Breneke slugs would be the best choice, as they are hard lead.
The method most used (and makes most sense) is to toss double aught buck first, followed by slugs. The reasoning is the shooter may not have enough time to properly aim, with the buck shot taking care of slight error.
I know of one AG (Alaskan Guide) that used this method, in a Drilling/Verling (which ever has three barrels). '06 was the bottom round, 12 guage being the smooth tubes. ~~~Suluuq

One can be with a rifle just as fast at point shooting as with a shot gun. Slugs require that you aim as well. Those who think that they are going to get hits with out taking the extra spilt sec to make sure are most likely going to miss. A fully load pump or simi weighs in as much as most rifles. A rifle with a good peep site is just as handy to carry as a shotgun.------------------------------------------------- I myself would prefer a rifle with heavy for cailber bullet. 200 plus in 30, 250's in 338,300 in 375 ect. The extra penatration and bone breaking one gets from rifle bullets over ride shot gun slugs.-----------------As far as bullet placement head shots if you can do it. Most likey if you are aiming for the head and miss by a couple of inches you well drive the bullet into the neck shoulder area taking them out. Then into the lung heart area doing damage there also.--------------------------------But to do this when a bear is charging takes fore thought and practice and planing. As one does not want to act like a rabbit caught in the middle of the road woundering what to do as the car runs over you. In this case as the bear reachs you.

Hey, isn't this what the "Guide Gun" is all about? A short, light, handy repeater, with enough power to take care of just about anything. I don't know if it would be my own first pick, but it did make it's own niche.>>>>>>Bug.

Oh no, not this again. I've never hunted the big bears, but I do have some experience with blackies. First of all, you are talking apples and oranges. Other than the fact they are bears, the similarities for the purposes of selecting a rifle/cartridge combo are totally different. For Blacks, a shotgun is perfectly adequate. They are not particularly tough, nor dangerous when wounded or even cornered.

To those of you that have hunted the big ones, I am sure you'll chime in here, but in my view, a shotgun is definetly not optimum. The penetration is just not there. Todd is right, use the biggest rifle you can shoot and to me, as a "defense" ( not a hunting gun) my minimum would be the 375 H&H. jorge

If a bear, Black or Grizzly, is close enough to be considered a threat to you a 12 gauge slug will put them down. I would not however use a 12 gauge as my first choice if I was actually hunting bear as opposed to defending myself from one.

I have shot a number of both types of bears over the years. Some were shot with a rifle while hunting and some, trouble bears around the house, with 12 gauge slugs. All the bears died. The ones hit with the slugs seemed to die quicker than the rifle shot ones but then they were all shot at less than 100 feet so that may have had sommething to do with it.

The average hunter however has little to fear from most bears providing you don't do somthing stupid like sleeping with the bacon in you tent. You are more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the hunting area than you are of being eaten by a bear.

Having hunted both blacks and grizzlies and having seen many of each while hunting other species, I can say that there is not as much difference between them as most people think.While grizzlies in alaska and coastal B.C. can grow to 1000lbs or more the average inland grizzly is much smaller usually in the 300lb to 600lb range.While blacks usually average 200lbs to 300lbs many do grow to the 500lb or 600lb range so the size difference is not that great.Grizzlies do have a heavier bone structure but are not built that much differently.As such I do not feel that you need to carry big bore rifles for bear protection unless you are in alaska or coastal B.C.I myself carry a shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot for camping and such and do not feel undergunned.When surprised at close range or on moving targets the buckshot gives you better odds of a good hit than a slug or bullet and that is the reason for using buckshot.

stubblejumper is exactly right on the relative size of black and grizzly bears. Here in the BC innterior our Grizz will go 500 - 700 pounds or so with an odd one weighing in a bit heavier. Our interior blacks however can become very large. In areas where Grizzly and Black bear ranges overlap we have some huge blacks as the smaller ones are driven out or killed by the grizz. (The most amazing sight I ever saw in my life was watching a Black bear and a Grizzly fight over a patch of riverbank while the salmon run was on. The black won the fight!) Every year I see at least a few 600 pound+ black bears taken by hunters. There was one black taken last fall about 10 miles from my house that squared just shy of 8 feet, which is a hell of a good black.

[ 06-29-2003, 19:36: Message edited by: Cariboo ]

The best weapon is the one you have in your hands. The one that you have with you instead of back at the camp or propped against a tree. For that reason, I think one of those chopped off shotguns with the pistolgrip stocks that I see salmon fisherman wearing slung over their backs would be the cat's meow. Loaded with 00 buck on top, followed by all the solids you could get in it. Trying to fish or hike with a rifle slung in a conventional manner is a pain in the ass and for that reason it would apt to be left at camp or propped up on the bank. Remember, we're not hunting bears, we are defending ourselves from a bear attack, a joy I have avoided in my 65 years and one I hope to continue to experience only in cyber space.

I would have to suspect that at point blank range a shotgun with buckshot would practically decapitate a bear. I know I have read numerous accounts of wounded dangerous game in Africa and such where they used a shotgun loaded w/ 8's or 9's! I know a Lion may be thinner skinned than a grizzly, but still--you're talking tremendous energy at point blank range and a big wad of lead--I have to believe it'd be like taking a sledge hammer to a critter...

I defer to you gents with bear experience as to the efficacy of buckshot on bear, even the thousand pound plus Alskan brownies. But I do know this: As far as lions are concerned, NOBODY,. but NOBODY that I personally know, read or heard about uses a shotgun on lion. A lion weighs at the most 450 or so. jorge

At close range feet not yards buck shot needs to be aimed also for the shot pattern about the size of your fist. Well not give you a soild hit it you miss. Nor will placeing one or two buck shot pellets give you the power you want.--------------------- The one bear I did kill with buck OO 12 pellet rem mag. was about 10 yards side shot took her in shoulder lung area dropped her there then give her another one right away. Both aimed shots She did not get up. She was a 355 lb blk. I still would like a rifle better.

In bear country I recommend you carry a large caliber handgun with heavy well constructed bullets. You must always wear the handgun, even when sleeping in the tent. The first notice you have of a bear, may be after he has knocked you down. My wife and I have been snuck up on twice while bear hunting, glassing for other bears. Booth times the bear got within 12 to 15 feet and had been there a while watching us. Once a black bear once a grizzly. We are pretty careful and observent, but them ba'r can be pretty quiet when they want to. Luckily no shots were fired.
With a handgun you might have a chance if you are wearing it.
As for long gun protection I think a Marlin Guide gun with the proper ammo is the hands down winner. I have shot game with the 45/70 and shotgun slugs, I have not been impressed with slugs. The Guide guns are affordable, rugged, handy, reliable, [much more so than any factory magnum bolt rifle], and plenty powerful enough. Shoot for the head, a heart shot bear can do a lot of chewing before it dies. I had a Marlin full size 45/70 I carried while my wife hunted grouse in bear country. My brother has a Guide gun. I much prefer the guide gun, and it is even more accurate than the long bbl'd Marlin I used to have.

Bear defense usually happens at very close range, where a shotgun would be an excellent choice. Within 25 feet, a shotgun loaded with slugs (and only slugs) should work as well as other weapons.

I am not a bear expert by any means, but the information provided at the site below was compiled by Stephen Herrero, Tom Smith, and others who have dealt with bears for many years.

In Alaska, several bears have been killed with shotguns, including at least one polar bear that mauled a man inside a building. A brown bear was killed with a shotgun a few months back, inside a hotel. I was watching a TV show from Churchill (?), Canada, where a little old lady dropped a polar bear on her porch with her shotgun.

A "center of mass" shot should be much easier than trying to find the head, then firing the gun on a charging bear.

Almost forgot: If you plan to use "Magnum" or any type of slugs for bear defense, you better practice at the range, and make sure the shotgun does not jamb. Fire three to five times in rapid succession (pump shotgun), to find out if you have one of many shotguns that may jamb. For example, I have a Winchester "Defender" (1200) that jambs by the third slug fired. I sent it to winchester with the shell still stuck in the chamber, and they sent it back with a note explaining that it works fine. I imagine that I could polish the chamber of this shotgun to fix the problem, but needless to say...I would not use it for bear defense.

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/safety/safeconduct.htm

[ 06-30-2003, 01:10: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

My way of thinking is that you want very deep penetration, something that will bite some vitals from any angle. Rapid fire is good too, so a lever action in 45/70 is a good choice. I forgot about them last night, but loaded with 550 gr. hard casts, they would be a top choice. And the Marlin GG would be alot easier to pack around than a long bolt action in 416 or 458.

I just don't have much faith in the shotgun for stopping power, but I've never used one in that manner, so I guess I shouldn't totally rule them out.

Thanks for the replies, I know this topic is almost brought up as much as a Ballistic Tips Suck/243 for deer/push feeds for DG/MatchKings for hunting thread.

One of two things need to happen,you have to cause major disruption in the nervous system or cause the animal to go into shock quickly. With a shotgun slug or rifle,you can cause disruption to the spine,lungs heart or brain. Buckshot has the ability to penetrate in some cases and yet cause shock,which is caused by multiple hits at one time. The body simply can't handle multiple hits at one time,without going into shock. A great example of shock,is culled elephants being hit with an AK or FAL. They drop like a shit sandwhich. It seems like the only people that doubt the ability of a shotgun,are those that have never witnessed or used one on a bear in defense.

12 ga. pump 00 buck then a slug alternated. Trust me they work! But in reality bear spray works very well on a grizzly but won't work on a black for some reason.

I have been surprised by bears when hiking in B.C. lucky for me they bolted..but if they wanted my ass they would have had it. Imagine shooting sporting clays but you don't get a demonstration bird even though you have a loaded chamber and are ready. Well its kind of tough to get a shot off anywhere near the target when they explode out of the launcher. Most deadly bear attacks occur before you know what hit you and your lucky if your still alive or able, after it happens, to fight for your life. Someone made the distinction between hunting and self defense..and it makes a big difference in what you would choose. A 50 A.E. desert eagle loaded with hot 180 grain magsafe rounds, arguably the most energetic self defence load available, only duplicates a 30/30..better than most hand guns but not my first choice. A 45/70 will do a great job if you don't miss a vital area. A 12 guage loaded with #1 or 00/000 buck at close range gives the best chance of a sure stop. I would always opt for the semi-auto for the simple reason if you are down, disabled or being mauled it is the best choice for a second or third shot as compared to what is physically required to operate a pump gun or any other repeater, for that matter. I agree with all other posters that state at close range the 12 bore is king!

I've got some opinions on bear defense

The first thing to do is decide if you are hunting or not. This thread deals with defense, so we are NOT hunting here.

Now you have to decide on what you are prepared to carry, so you have to asses your threat level.

If you are spending alot of time with large grizzlies, like on the BC coast, or coastal Alaska, you will probably be more willing to carry a little more weight in exchange for firepower.

If you are just goign for a hike in bear country, and want to carry soem protection, but don't feel especially vulnerable to large grizzlies, you may be prepared to sacrifice firepower for weight.

So: In scenerio #1, where there is a very good chance of bumping into large grizzlies, I'd opt for a big rifle, something like a .375, 416, or .458. I'd chop the barrel down because it's not going to be used at extended range, install good sights, and load it with X bullets or Failsafes. I'd aim for the head, because even if I miss the head, I'll hit other important stuff like shoulder bones, necks and veins. A solid hit by a major caliber rifle will almost certainly turn a bear away for a moment, giving you time for another follow up shot or two.

In scenerio #2, I would (and do) go for a pump shotgun.

However, it would be loadd only with Brenneke slugs. I've played around with these enough to be impressed by them. The penetrate deeply, are accurate, and hold together. They perform much more like a solid non-expanding bullet than a foster style slug, which opens quickly.

I wouldn't use buckshot at all. It doesn't penetrate nearly as well as the slugs.

Here's some pics..

I've tested buck and slugs in wet newspaper, but I never took pics of them as I didn't have a digital camera at that time...But not too long ago I shot some propane tanks



Here we have Mr. Propane tank...The top large hole is a Brenneke slug, the bottom a regualar Foster style slug. All other small holes are from a 30-06.



I've circled the buckshot with a black pen..It was fired from a full choke shotgun.



Here is the rear of the tank with the exit wounds.

The top hole is the Brenneke slug. Nice uniform hole. The bottom hole is the Foster slug. it appears that the Foster slug broke up somewhat, as there are two dents showing on the tank, which I have circled with black pen.

So what does this tell us? Well, when in season, use slugs for propane tanks, not OO It doesn't tell us much about grizzly ammo, though, except to maybe illustrate that slugs penetrate hard objects better than OO...

My bottom line is that if I am just going on a hike, I grab my 18" Pump Mossberg, loaded with Brennekes, and feel comfy enough with it, AND I'll have it with me when I need a gun because it is light and handy. I'd feel better with my .375 if I was in country thick with grizzlies.

If I expect to ecounter bears wearing armour I will switch to a big bore rifle instead of my buckshot.In the meantime I have seen the results of 00 buckshot at close range on bears and it is quite effective.

For what it's worth..from a laymen...I've tested my 12ga for patterning with slugs, and I'm able to deliver two quick hit at two bucket size targets at 20 paces. That's what I'll carry. Have you ever calculated how fast a charging bear will be upon you, how many seconds do you have if he is say 40 meters away? Roughly 4 seconds! If your rifle/shotgun is slung...

I've tested it and I found that I can get the shotgun off my right shoulder and get off two shots in just about 4 seconds (takes a bit of a technique...not safe gun handling, but we're in an emergency here). The second shot, presuming the first one didn't do it, the bear will be in my lap! I've tried this with a bolt action....no deal, by the time I'm done cylcing the bolt I'll be lunch meat.

So I'll opt for the shotgun/slugs....based on the scenario that the charge will be from up close and coming fast...sort of a worst case scenario. I like the idea of having that second shot.

As far as the effectiveness of buckshot...I'll have to believe those who saw it...

Frans

Gatehouse -I have killed one black bear myself with buckshot that was wounded by another hunter(gutshot and very agitated) and have seen a couple of problem bears dispatched with buckshot when they came into camp.All were average sized black bears in the 200 to 300 lb range.Distances were in the 20 to 40 foot range.I have only been charged by one grizzly(ironically while on a grizzly hunt) and a shot in the base of the throat at 40 yards with my 338x8mmremmag stopped the bear in it's tracks.If I lived in an area where large grizzlies were common I would keep a big bore rifle in camp.If I am on a hunt in grizzly country my 300ultramag stays handy and I don't keep a shotgun in camp at all.But for protection while fishing or camping in my area though a short barreled shotgun with buckshot is very handy and effective.

[ 06-30-2003, 05:38: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

Frans has brough up the very pertant fact, "Have you ever calculated how fast a charging bear will be upon you, how many seconds do you have if he is say 40 meters away? Roughly 4 seconds!"

In therory a shot gun with OO loaded 1st & 2nd may increase one's odds of a "Turning" or at the least a "pausing" shot. Giving one the oppertunity to use slugs.

I've also heard of guys loading 6 steel ball bearings vs. OO shot as an attention getter.

Admittedly, I've never carried a firearm in black bear country while Elk hunting. I have however, found myself out there alone with my bow, pondering the relative sanity of it all.

I do carry one of those fire extinguisher size bear spray cans. I've considered carring my FA casul. I'd most likely load it with P+ CorBon .45LC as I can get 2 or 3 rounds off quickly and keep a decent grouping vs. the .454 rounds.

At least for Black Bears it seems for everyone that insists a firearm is need, I talk with two other that feel it's not.

Stubblejumper

The reason I asked is because I know of 3 instances of buckshot not doing the trick with one shot, on mildly agitated to very agitated bears.

All the bears died, but all took at least 2 rounds of buck and more time than you want if the bear was coming at you.

The one I saw shot in the head dropped dead, but it wasn't agitiated at all. Just a problem black bear.

for Boss Kongoni

The government of British Columbia recently issued this bulletin...

"Warning: In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear conflicts, we are advising hikers, hunters and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.

We advise outdoorsmen to wear noisy little bells on their clothing, so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear.

It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity. Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear manure: Black bear manure is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur. Grizzly bear manure has little bells in it and smells like pepper.

If hiking/fishing in the states I would carry a .44 or .45 magnum loaded w/ heavy hard cast LBT style bullets. You are more likely to have it near your hands than a long gun, can be fired repeatedly w/ one hand should it become necessary. For Canada, I would go Marlin Guide gun in .45-70 or .450. Quick pointing & hard hitting, again w/ hard cast 400gr LFP. The short bbl. pump w/ good slugs would also be a good choice, but I find it easier to shhot the Marlin w/ accuracy.

I'm sticking w/ mt assertion that a bears head would look like a wet dishrag if hit at close range by a charge of buckshot. Its not made out of steel!

What it comes down to is just like women we all pick something we like and maybe the other guy doesn't. Carry what you want and what you thinks works. Only you and the bear well have the final say if it does or not. Any gun is better then no gun.

A 12 guage 3 inch 000 buck up close and personal in a bear attack would without doubt dispatch a bear and penetrate the skull. I'd also want a semi auto like a benelli or Browning A-5.

The problem a pistol presents is practice,who honestly shoots a .44 mag or .45 colt with linebaugh type loads in volume to become good,very few. The ones who do are very fast but few and far between. A guy who is practiced with a single action pistol or double action, can do amazing things,the problem is few reach this skill level. As a result a rifle or shotgun is much more accurate in the average shooters hands. Slung with barrel pointing down,a shotgun or rifle can be deployed as quickly as a pistol and chances are more accurately.

Though I have no experience with this senerio- I'll plug my 2 cents in -again. For my chioces for the Sh-t hit the fan - I got a pissed off/hungry bear coming my way-I'm going to die under 40 yds seneiro.
1. Shotgun- 00 Buck in the face-the other 5 slugs in the chest!
2. Big bore lever- I can keep all 9 heavy loaded 45 LC 300 gr in a 10" circle at 50 yds rapid fire!! Hmm thats 9 X 1900+ FT-Lbs of energy hitting in less than 5 seconds!!! I don't know much -but I think Mr. Bruin would be in very big trouble with all that energy rocking his world!!! What's a target size of a Griz/Brown
9-12" head? 15-25" chest target? Blacks will be some what smaller.
3. Last but not least-454 Casul- 5 for Mr. bruin and one for me if it came to that point.


[ 06-30-2003, 16:50: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

Scubie2: I thin I might have read that also in a Capstick book maybe? But I'm here to tell you that my PH and numerpus other's I've spoken with much prefer a double rifle when going after a wounded lion. Leopard is another story. There you get two schools of thought. Some like the shotgun, some don't. Again, I defer to the experts on this issue, but my instinct is to carry a rifle. jorge

Scubie, recent hunting articles on lion from PHs in africa, show that it is very difficult to penetrate a lions skull or heavy chest muscles w/ 00 buck @ even point blank ranges. As Jorge stated many PHs want a heavy double for up close & personnal w/ DG. A pissed off grizzly has got to be a tougher beast to turn or bring down. If I were toting a shotgun, it would be loaded w/ slugs.
Under stress one can even miss w/ a shotgun / rifle @ 20yds or less. Practice w/ whatever you carry, be it pistol, rifle or shotgun.

[ 06-30-2003, 23:44: Message edited by: fredj338 ]