I was reading a poast that talked about the 204 used as a deer gun. In years past there is always the 223 or 22-250 on deer thing going. Why are some people infatuated with shooting game with a gun/ammo combo thta will lead to lost or wasted game if everything is not just right. I would love to hear why someone does this when much better options are out there.

When we begin to "hunt" for sport we sometimes wish to ARTIFICIALY increase the "challenge." This leads some to use a bow and arrows, others to try a handgun, still others to use "primitive" weapons or iron sights, and most recently the trend to get further away from one's quarry, i.e., long distance hunting. None of this has a basis outside of a persons ego.

A stable and well intended hunter is in my opinion one who deeply values his quarry and respects its place. Many years ago I learned a little country wisdom while dropping off some deer at the local butcher. The boys played a game with the deer, that is to say they guessed who in our party shot what. The father of the family let it be known to me that: " you learn alot about a person by the way he shoots his game." The older I get the more I know that is the truth.

Having just found my rectum (yes with both hands) I can categorically state that I also have an opinion, and you just read it!

I don't think it's so much the "challenge" but there are many hunters that just don't want to spend the time to master an "appropriate caliber rifle for deer so they shoot their varmint rifles. If you want a challenge, take up the handgun or bow, at least you have to get closer (so that is JMO).

I think this is a big country and deer come in different sizes. For tiny deer there isn't a need for a big round, they're about varmint size and only need a light application of bullet.

Another reason a hunter may use a smaller caliber bore and light(er) bullets is that in the crowded portions of the country (Eastern seaboard) its probably not a good idea to have any more bullet than is needed so pass through projectiles don't go rattling around the countryside.

There are also differing methods to hunt deer, hunt from a stand and the deer essentially become non-moving calm beasts and a hunter can easily pick-and-choose the shot. Once again as I see it there's no need for a big bullet intended for deep penetration through muscle when I'm going to shoot the beast in the head, heart or through the lungs.

I personally try to match the rifle to the application, I don't generally hunt deer with a large caliber and big bullet unless I'm headed to an unknown area where it's possible that I may be required to make a shot on a less than desireable (broadside standing) presentation.

For many folks it's just a case of fitting the rifle and chambering to the requirements of the event and the desired result.

It might just be a case of matching the tool to the job.

A few years ago, while living out of state, I made a last-minute trip north to hunt with my dad. I didn't bring a rifle with me, knowing that I could use one once I got there. For nostalgia reasons, I used my old 222 Rem Mag, figuring that I was gonna end up still hunting and moving deer for my dad anyway, and letting him do the shooting. Grabbed some factory 55 gr softpoints and went hunting.

As it turned out, I got plenty of shooting myself. Three shots, three dead deer. One went down right where it stood, the others made it maybe 20 yards. All were carefully chosen broadside shots, and all one shot kills. One bullet was a pass through, one broke up after making it through the chest cavity and hitting the far ribs, and one was a picture perfect classic mushroom against the far hide. None "failed".

While I'm not sure I'd do it again by choice, I certainly can't complain about the experience so far...

I have mastered such guns as the .458 Lott and still find it incredable that so many think .22 caliber centerfires are inadequate for deer. My longest shot on a big game animal to date was a 360 yard one shot whitetail deer kill with a .22-250 (dropped in it's tracks). The .222 Remington works well also. To date, I've never lost a wounded big game animal.

I don't know about the 204 Ruger since I've never used one; with the proper bullets, it would probably work as well. I don't plan to get one so I'll probably never know.

The big boomers are fun but the smaller bores get the job done with much less meat loss, little recoil and muzzel blast that's very easy to live with without hearing protection. In my opinion, if you just want to get the job done cheaply with no muss or fuss, a .22 caliber centerfire is the way to go.

When I was young and dumb, I thought that accuracy was the only thing that mattered, and hunted for years with a 22-250. I killed several deer with it including the 34" muley that hangs on my wall. It finally dawned on me that I was losing deer and needing more than one shot to put it down.
Bottomline, if you haven't lost deer yet, you will.

quote:

Originally posted by OldFart:
Bottomline, if you haven't lost deer yet, you will.

I'd venture to say that that line covers *every* caliber, not just small ones.

A bad shot in a bad place with ANY round isn't going to help you....

Like I said above, three shots, three kills. Not a big pool to work with, but still 100%.

On the other hand, I've personally lost deer shot with 12 ga slugs (BIG hole, and lots of energy), and saw/had buddies or heard about deer lost with virtually any caliber rifle that you can think of.

This argument has gone 'round before. It's already starting downhill (yes, I know, I'm contributing to that).

In the end, I'd rather see somebody make their own choice, based on their conditions, skills, etc, and use what they want, than to have everyone falling into the "magnums are better", or "223 is too small", etc.

Here's a question... if a 223 is "inadequate", what is the minimum "adequate" rifle to use for whitetails? (Notice, I intentionally left it open. TX or Canada? Treestand in thick cover or sendero? Restrained hunter or meat gatherer? Get the picture?)

Where's the "cut off"? Is it a certain bullet diameter (so the 6x45 is equal to the 240 Weatherby now, or the 30 Carbine rivals the 30-06 or 300 Mag?)? Or an "energy level" (again, using foot pounds, the 22-250 has more than a 30-30, so is the 30-30 less effective than the 22-250?)? How about bullet weight? Where's the "line" that we need to cross to become "ethical"?

Whelen35: I would MUCH rather see a Deer Hunter afield with a Rifle in caliber 204 Ruger who is willing to wait for AND carefully place a killing shot into the Deer than some of the "big bore" slobs I have seen wound Deer and Elk during my lifetime!
I own 3 (three) Rifles in 204 Ruger and in my mind I am certain they will kill Deer. I don't advocate they be used to do so.
Your intimation that all Hunters who choose small bores to Hunt Deer with, will end up wounding that game - is fallacious, on its face!
I know better!
The small bore crowd holds within it just about the same exact ratio of slob Hunters as does the big bore crowd!
We all owe the game we try to harvest a carefully planned, executed and humane death blow from our weapons!
I have come acrosss MANY Elk and Deer over the decades I have Hunted, with their legs flopping as they suffer along from an ill concieved bullet wound!
I hope you are not trying to intimate that none of these wounds came from the "big bore crowd"! Again, Whelen35, I know better!
Careful shot placement with a proper bullet by all Hunters will alleviate most all undue suffering from our Game Animals.
Its that simple.
I wish I had kept track of all the animals I have seem wounded and/or lost by Hunters using "Magnums" and "Big Bores" that I have been privey to - first hand! I choose to try to put these things out of my mind but for some reason I can't forget them.
Hunters that use Big Bores and Magnums DO NOT automatically kill the game that is struck with their bullets!
Careful shot placement with proper bullets does though!
I often cite the success's of the family of my main Montana Hunting partner. He, his wife and his two eldest daughters use a Rifle in caliber 223 Remington to harvest amazing amounts of Big Game here in Montana every year! Over the 9 seasons I have seen them use this Rifle, I know they have killed far in excess of 100 Whitetail Deer, Mule Deer and Antelope! The father alone killed 8 Whitetailed Deer with it last season alone!!!
In addition one of the daughters killed a monster 31" Mule Deer and a Mt. Goat with this "small bore" Rifle!
Both one shot, witnessed kills!
I have personally observed this family kill 20 - 25 head of game with this Rifle and not one animal lost - that I know of!
The big secret, Whelen35, is - careful shot placement and patience!
With the new 45 grain bullets from a 204 Ruger I would have no hesitation in trying to harvest an Antelope or a Whitetailed Doe in the country I Hunt.
Careful shot placement is the key!
If you are real nice to me I will relay to you the details of how one of my Hunting partners father harvested a 5x5 Bull Elk with a 5mm Remington Rimfire Rifle back when this "whiz-bang" was new!
Again I contend that a poorly placed shot from a magnum is just as painful and unfortunate for the game as one from a 204!
Carefully placed shots by all Hunters will ease your concerns about "seemingly odd behavior" more than condemning a particular segment of the Hunting public and wishing they weren't there! They are there!
Profess instead, careful and patient placement of shots rather than condemnation of using small bores.
Whelen35 if you have not witnessed success by Hunters using small caliber Rifles on Deer then you simply do not have much experience afield.
If I can do it you can do it! All you need is practice, patience and careful shot placement.
And by the way Whelen35 "if everything is not just right" when you spy a head of game with your 35 Whelen in hand I extend to you the same advice I would give a Hunter using a 223 Remington - DON'T SHOOT!!!!!
Long live careful shot placement!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Bore:
A bad shot in a bad place with ANY round isn't going to help you....

You got that right! We were on a lease in Llano, TX last year and one of the other guys on the lease shot a really nice 10 pointer with his .338 Ultra Mag and they never found the damn thing! First of all, that is a little overkill for Whitetail and I'm sure it kicked like a BITCH, which is probably why he missed (he was scared of the recoil). I shoot a .300 WSM which I pretty much use for everything, save varmints, and it does a great job on deer. I personally have not yet lost a deer either, but I am always very picky about my shots and the angle, etc...

quote:

Here's a question... if a 223 is "inadequate", what is the minimum "adequate" rifle to use for whitetails? (Notice, I intentionally left it open. TX or Canada? Treestand in thick cover or sendero? Restrained hunter or meat gatherer? Get the picture?)

A excellent question, but I would like to ask just the opposite, what caliber is too small. They slaughter cows with 22 long rifles, Bell used a 7x57 for tuskers, there was a thread a while back of someone who killed a brownie with a 410 shotgun. would anyone go hunting simular sized game with these guns?
The 22's and smaller were designed to shoot small bullets super fast. Are these bullets really strong enough to handle big game at those velocities?
Given that my experiences were too damn long ago, I believe that this was my problem and I suspect this is still the case today. Even with good shots, I would need extra shots to bring down game. I for one need the game to fall as close to the point of impact as possible, and I still think its a mistake to handicap yourself with a varmint round. I had a bowhunting buddy who I used to joke with telling him he had a pack of Coyotes that would follow him around. The 204 would be good news to coyotes if they're used for big game.

Old Fart: Are you saying that you never had a head of Big Game you shot with your 22-250 fall in its tracks at your shot?
Well if you haven't - I sure have!
I have cleanly killt game with both the 22-250 and the 220 Swift.
Most folks consider them to be top o' the line Varmint calibers but it takes a bit of unbiased observation to appreciate just how "deadly" these rounds are on Deer sized game!
And again I have seen game cleanly killed with the 223 Remington in three states and of two different species!
Let me relay two instances where I was the spotter on shots at game. My friend Skip was using his ultra-accurate 22-250 Remington on Antelope and I was watching his quarry through my Unertl spotting scope. This big buck Antelope was facing us and the shot struck the animal low in the throat and the 55 gr. bullet made it into the lungs. That Lope fell instantly in its tracks and never quivered even once! Range - 240 yards as I recall.
The next scenario I was tag along, spotter and packer for my friend Ben on his Antelope Hunt here in SW Montana. His Sako 270 Winchester had gone on the fritz and he was forced to switch to using his other Big Game Rifle for Antelope on this trek. It was a custom Ruger #1 in 338/378 Weatherby Magnum. I eventually lasered a good buck for him at 275 yards and he put a bullet right through the Bucks lungs. Why and how that Antelope raced off is beyond me - but race off it did! I was shocked and somewhat miffed as the Buck made it over a steep dry wash and we had to eventually hump it up out of there. The Buck made it 150 yards on its own and another 150 feet down and into the wash before it ran out of gas or something as it was out of sight by then!
If dead on the spot is what you want for Antelope and Deer sized game don't give up on the 22 centerfires! They are fully capable of this feat.
ESPECIALLY with proper bullets.
I know, I have been observing this phenomenon for decades now.
Careful shot placement is the key.
Ask me sometime on my observations of one shot kills vs. multi shot kills on Mt. Goats!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Several good points here, and many people who have real life hunting time with smaller bores. My question is, or statement would be then, why are there so many people out there who call themselves hunters when they don't put in the time to be able to shoot well enough to cleanly put game down reguardless of what they are using? As a landowner between the two largest city centers in ND, I see lots of people out "hunting" and see or find several deer every year arround the farm that have been shot in the wrond end, guts, or neck wounds. One of the largest deer I have ever seen was lost when the shooter was useing a 22-250. We found blood, and the shooter is a very good shot. Where the animal was hit is unknown because it was not recovered. I have put down several sick deer that have been shot with a 22lr by poachers and it just made then sick in a few days. I have taken deer with several lower power handguns and rifles, but will pick my shots very carefully. The largest deer I have shot had a live weight of 273lbs. We are talking large whitetail deer here. I have seen a lot of people hunting with 223's and 22-250's in the last few years, and I think too many people have the bang flop a few times with the smaller fast frangibal bullets and don't bother looking for blood anymore. Also the blood trail is never as good as when you have a hole in and out. So, if you have a choice of something larger or a smaller gun, why would you want the smaller? You can always limmit your range by sight choice, and or a large bore handgun.

Varmitguy, You are right on in the placement part. When I was just out of school about 22 year ago, I worked as the gun and hunting manager for a sporting goods store in Fargo. I had people all the time purchasing guns scopes go off hunting and then complain that the gun won't shoot. I over the few years I worked there sever of the "hunters" would state that the gun was bore sighted and they eventually learned they had to hold off target x-feet high and x-feet to the left to hit the target. several of them did not even sight in their guns. These are the ones I fear. They do not know where they are going to hit when they fire off a shot. I still shoot a lot with a 100yd range built off the deck of my house, and have a 500yd range set up on the farm. with about 8000 rounds of center fire a year and 4-5000 22lr a year I feel that I can hit where I intend to. I see several a year who are only guessing that they are close. I am not saying that a small bore placed in the right place will not kill game, I have done so myself, but if you can shoot something bigger, and put the bullet where it needs to go, why take the chance?

it is all about shot placement and not taking a shot if it's not right

i have shot a lot of deer with small calibres here in New Zealand a number of fallow with a 22lr
also used a 22mag and 22 hornet on them
last year i did a trip with my 22 hornet into my sika block and shot 4 for 4 shots
and a few years back shot 2 red stags and a fallow buck in one day with a 22 mag all of which have been one shot kill's and havn't lost one yet
like i said at the start its all about shot placement and if you hit any deer sized game in the base of the ear it will go down

just my 2cents worth

VG-where on earth in our state last year could a fella take 8 whitetails (legally that is)?

Thanks

Mark D

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
We all owe the game we try to harvest a carefully planned, executed and humane death blow from our weapons!
VarmintGuy

Amen!

If I had to kill a deer with a 22rf I would kill a deer. I have shot and killed deer with every thing from 22lr to over 40 cal DG rifles.

Shot placement is what it is about when it comes to killing.

But on the other hand I do not think the smaller calibers are the best for all hunting. If one is hunting in a area where one has the time and game numbers to pick ones shots they will work just fine.

But in areas where the only shot at a legal buck or trophy buck might not be perfect I would recommend something bigger.

I been doing most of my deer killing the last 10 years or so with a 300sav 99 with a 165gr rem corlokt at 2400fps. I have shot dozens of deer with this combo from 15feet to over 300 yards avg range I would guess would be 100 yards.

Have I ever needed more gun when I was carring it. No have I needed less gun no. Have I carrred and used other guns from 223 to 416 yes. I have killed deer with them all.

When I sit on a stand that allows long range shots I use a very accurate bolt gun.

I tend to pick the rifle and caliber I want to shoot then hunt accordenly to caliber and rifle.

I don't worry about what others use and don't care. I worry more that they are safe with it and concren about their fellow hunters then caliber.

I keep trying to keep my mouth shut on this thread, but you guys make it tough. Shot placement is important, but that is not what kills the animal. Its the bullet getting into vital organs and doing damage that puts the animal down. The 204 and others specialize in making very light bullets go very fast. Even the large bullets have problems staying together, and they aren't going nearly as fast as these smaller bullets. I suspect that even something as small as a leaf would all but vaporize these bullets at those velocities. The ballistic tip bullets had a reputation of blowing up on the shoulder, can you imagine what these bullets will do.
Several peaple have mentioned horror stories of game lost with large calibers. Does anyone believe that a smaller bullet would have changed the outcome. In contrast, how many deer were lost, or ran further because the bullet was too small. This has been my experience. I have killed a bunch of deer with a 22-250, but no more.

OldFart
You would be betteroff if you did keep your mouth shut. You and the rest of these Big Bore additcs don't know shit from shineola. Yall are obviously educated past your intelegence!

I grew up hunting in a large hunting club 150 members. We hunted on 40,000 - 50,000 aces of La swamp land. at least 90% of the rifles used were chambered in 30-06. the othe 10% was every thing from 30 carbine to 458 win mag. We probly killed 500 or more deer a year. Every day we had deer to track and deer lost that were shot with 30-06, most with 180 gr factory loads. The reason for most of the deer runing off was they were shoot to far back with ut taking out both lungs or the heart.
I use to gut and skin moore deer than I can remember. We allways checked out the bullet damage. when adeer was hit with a 30-06 in the chest the damage to the heart and lungs was massiveno way any thing could live with this much damage. The bullets allways passed through on the broad side shots.

I rambled through all this for background info so you will know my observations from outoor life and feild and stream.

One day My brother showed up with a 22-250 we all thought he was nuts "what are you doing with that varmit gun, all you are going to do is wound deer" well that could not be farther from the truth. when he shoot a deer in the chest they folded up like a scaled spider. When we cleaned them the damage to the lungs and heart was massive, they were liqufied, much greater than a 30-06 with factory loads, or any other 30+ cal.. Several of us started using the 22-250 with the same results if you put the bullet in the lungs The deer will die very very soon.
The main problem is missing the lungs what some hunters don't understand is that a deers lungs move forward when they exhale. you need to shoot them tight behind the shoulder to insure a lung hit. Like I said most deer that run a long way are shot to far back. No matter what rifle you shoot if you miss the lungs, heart, CNS you will be lucky to collect that deer, moose, elk, bear or any other game animal.
Also OldFart bulltes don't blow up on leaves and the .22 cal will penatrate as deep as a 30-06 with the proper bullte. Check out PO Ackley writings on this in his test the 220 swift had some of the deepest penatration of any he tested on wood and steel.He also thought his .17 cal killed wild burrios and horses better than any gun he had.
Last don't judge other huntes just becuse they use diffrent equipment or tactics than you do. Doing so is the most ignorant thing I have seen on this fourm. Anties are laughing when hunters do their work for them.
So lets all go hunting take our children any enjoy this blessing while it last.

Dr B

PS I seldom hunt with a 22 cal any more I have a 270 that I love so I take it, But it's not becuse it kills better!

Dr B
The reason I hesitated to post is because people like who try to turn this into a pissing match rather than a good intelligent debate. At least the other posters presented good points rather than having to fall back on the "oh yea, well your stupid" argument. I would love to present more facts on this subject, but I vowed a long time ago not to get caught up in crap like this. As such, I'll quit posting on this thread. I do ask one thing from you. See how many milk jugs of water a 204 bullet will penetrate and compare that to a comparable larger bullet. Finally, weigh the bullets and post the results.

OldFart read my whole post if you can. 95% of it was was good points about the numerious observations I have made relating to this subject.
Real live animals are the only analogies that make any sense. Big game animals are not jugs of water, wet newspaper, plywood or even balistic gelatin. The only advantage a artifical medium has is that it is reproducable, but if you are using a repoduciable medium that does not rlate to the real thing any conclusion you draw will be greatlu flawed. Check the post oon ele penatration in the Africa fourm the test medium and bullets in real eles were exactly oppisite.

But if you insist on using water jugs cosider that a deer's chest is maby 1 or 1 1/2 gallon jugs wide so any penatration further than this is only going to expent its energy in the landscape which does not add to the killing power of the bullet.

To put it simple if you shoot a deer with a round designed tho shoot a 800 lb animal and penatrate 60 or 80 inches the energy actualy transfered to the deer will only be a fraction of the total. one poster justed reported that he killed two kadu with one shot the first was shot broad side the second was hit on the point of the shoulder and the bullet was found under the skin of the opsite hip which means that only maby 20 5 of the energy was transmited to the first animal This is a example of over kill.
when you shoot a deer with your proper rifle it is over kill which i have no problem with but to put down some one who understands this and uses a rifle with enough but not excess energy is IGNORANT!!!

A 22-250 has about 1600fpe at the muzzle.
A 270 win has about 2700 fpe at the muzzle

If all of the 1600 fpe stays in the deer and only 1/2 of the 2700 fpe stays in, 1380 fpe which is high the 22-250 will do more damage.
Which is just what I have observed.

But IT SILL DOES NOT TRUMP SHOT PLACEMENT. So if you can shoot the little guns well Buy allmeans use them if thats what floats your Boat.

A Peridin Shift is difficult the older you get but just becuse you can't make it do knock those who understand.

Dr B

Perhaps I should change my user name to OldFool for trying to reason with insanity, but here goes. (I apologize to those who have seen these before) These were shot through milk jugs of water. No, game animals are not a good means of testing bullets. The reason is simple, the path the bullet takes through the animal, hitting bone or not, will affect the result. You simply can’t do a fair comparison of any 2 bullets that were shot into game, plus it can lead to a false sense of security on a couple of good shots. Since gelatin is too expensive for my wallet, I use milk jugs of water for consistency.
First note the bullet on the far left, a 160 7mm failsafe. It penetrated 8 milk jugs where a 140 failsafe (like the one on the right) penetrated 6 jugs in spite of the higher velocity. Note the 150 Sirocco 2nd to the right. This bullet literally turned itself inside out and only penetrated 3 jugs and lost half of its weight. I originally posted this after another poster complained about these bullets blowing up on a shoulder, and from this picture you see why.
Now lets get back to the smaller calibers. First, I have seen my 22-250 vaporize bullets in air. It actually looks like a puff of smoke and if I had anything on my target, it looked more like I had shot it with a shotgun. I know this is also a problem for those who designed 204 bullets, which is why I believe even something as small as a leaf can deform these enough to vaporize them. I will test this myself in water one day but from my previous experiments, I doubt I could get any of these bullets to penetrate even 2 jugs of water, (perhaps a fmj may penetrate 3), plus I doubt you can find a chunk even half its weight. This is the reason I asked Dr B to run this experiment (although I really doubt he will).
Finally, I have attacked no one, only gave my opinion based on results I have seen in the field and during my testing. I have been on both sides of the fence, and have seen good results with the 22’s. But I have also seen the bad which is why I won’t use them anymore for big game.

quote:

Originally posted by Whelen35:
.... Why are some people infatuated with shooting game with a gun/ammo combo thta will lead to lost or wasted game if everything is not just right. ...

Hey Whelen35, It seems some folks have such a small amount of experience that they mistakenly believe Killing is all about "shot placement" based on seeing a few spectacular kills. That mis-leads them into thinking the small calibers work as well(or better as some have implied) than larger calibers.

The Bullet Design is significantly more important when attempting clean 1-shot Kills with the smaller calibers. But here again, the inexperienced will see a few Kills made with Varmint Class Bullets and convince themselves that nothing more is needed.

Perhaps it is due to a lack of proper instruction by their Elders during their formative years. It seems they either Hunted with people that didn't understand the dynamics involved in a Kill(like alf, jageter, mark young, etc) or had to learn on their own. And it is also obvious that some simply don't have the proper educational background to get a grasp on how different Bullets are Designed to "properly" work.

There is no doubt that proper shot placement is important, but making consistent, clean 1-shot Kills is a lot more complex than that. Simply by gaining enough Kill experience, there will normally be enough factual information available for "most of them" to eventually understand.

So how many milk jugs wide is a deer OF? It seems to me you have a bullet problem not a caliber problem. Water tests will tell you how a bullet reacts to water vs how another reacts to water. Your test applies to killing milk jugs in trail formation not game animals because flesh and bone isn't water. Bullet construction hasn't yet made it to this discussion and it should. I have shot deer and antelope with a 7.7 jap, a 7mm Rem Mag, a .25-06, a .257 Roberts and the classic 8x57JS. Worst performance on game? 7mm Rem Mag with 140 Ballistic tips (no loss just the farthest run) Best? .257 Roberts with a 117 round nose soft point and tied with the 8x57 200 grain soft point. The lesson? the right bullet for the game and velocity at impact. Given a good bullet capeable of high impact velocity say a 63 grain TSX in .224" and proper placement I can't say it's bad ju-ju, the bullet is up to the task if the hunter is. The proper shot placement and proper bullet type go hand in hand right behind a practiced and patient hunter who will take the best shots and not just fling lead. There is much more to it than bore size alone and if that's how you make your choice on only one factor you need to relearn alot of things about life.

I won't use a .224" bullet on deer and up, that's just me. Based solely on those thousandths of an inch it makes me no more or less ethical than another. FWIW my go to deer rifle is a .257 Roberts with 100 grain TSX's, my Pronghorn gun is a .25-06 with the same. My Elk rifle is the old trusty 8x57 newly loaded with 180TSX's and 200 interbonds. I'll use the newest a .270WSM on any deer to elk with the proper bullet.

Flame away boys and girls I can take it

I lost two of the biggest bucks I ever shot with a 243 winchester with 100 gr bullets.I trailed the wonderful specks of blood for around 1/2 mile or more on one to a gut pile where someone else shot it.The Other buck I never found untill my dad found it a year later.I quit using the 243 after I made behind the shoulder shots and had these two run away.I also had problems cluse up with the 30-06 with 165 gr boattails under 50 yards.The bullets turned inside out and lost their jackets.They killed good from 100-175 yards.I switched to the 338 win mag with 200 gr power points 20 years ago and 86 deer later with one shot in their tracks kills its still working.It tears up way less meat with hardly any blood shot.I had to trow away quarters from deer shot with a 270 with 130 gr balistic tips.The front quaters were nothing but a blood shot mess.

Mark: In region 3.
A person could buy an "unlimited" number of "over-the-counter" Whitetail tags and these were for certain "areas" within region 3 - like region 320. THEN you could buy one more Whitetail tag that was good in ANY "area" within region 3!!!
So I think those interested folks could buy tags until the "total" of "unlimited" tags for areas withing region 3 were bought out. And that number was like 5,000?
I bought one of the unlimited over the counter tags and applied in the spring of 2,005 for one of the "any area in region 3" tags. So I had two tags and was just to busy to use them up.
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

So how many milk jugs wide is a deer OF? It seems to me you have a bullet problem not a caliber problem. Water tests will tell you how a bullet reacts to water vs how another reacts to water. Your test applies to killing milk jugs in trail formation not game animals because flesh and bone isn't water. Bullet construction hasn't yet made it to this discussion and it should.

I actually agree with you for the most part. Water tests do provide consistency and from this its not hard to understand what the bullet will do on game. For example, I expect the sirocco in the picture to perform just like the one in the picture if it busted through skin and missed bone. However, its not hard to imagine what would happen to this bullets if it had to bust through bone, it would actually come apart more. Like I mentioned before, you can't make comparisons on bullets shot through game so the best way I have found to test bullets is by killing milk jugs.
I absolutely agree with you on your point on bullet construction because that is the real key to this discussion. Are bullets designed to blow up inside a coyote capable of busting through the ribs or shoulder of one of the 300 pound deer that everyone has running around? I guess everyone knows my opinion on that one, but is there a bullets in the 204 or 224 that is designed for such a shot? I really can't answer that, but if nothing else it certainly justifies someone who uses these calibers to be even more careful about that shot.

When you slow down the velocity of a bullet, the milk jug tests start to come apart...

A slow moving bullet, even a light fragile varmint bullet will easily penetrate thru a milk jug full of H20 quite easily...or a batch of them in a line...

What does that prove? Know your equipment....
YOu don't necessarily need a cannon to get deep penetration on game... and still, shot placement can go a long long way, when compared to just plain old foot lbs and velocity...

OldFart
Once again your lack of knowledge is your problem. When I curently shoot deer with my 233 wssm i use a Barns 52 gr TSX. It's not made to blow up on the inside of a cyote. It will penatrate a deers shoulder and make in to the chest. Their are other bullets in 22 cal designed to hold together.
check out GS Custom bullets web site he has a section on shooting aferican Plains game with a 22 cal rifle using a 40 gr bullet.
Dr B
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/22x64.html

So the scirocco did exactly what it was suposed to do and you are mad? Heck a Patition will lose it's nose rapidly and about 40% of it's weight too, and people swear they are THE bullet for game hunting. Look at that mushroom's size and calculate just how much energy it dumped in that short amount of travel, the wound cavity which you can not see in water would have been massive. Incidentally 3 jugs wide is a big deer, that's a distance right about equal to spine to belly distance on the average whitetail deer.

I can fully agree that most .224" bullets are designed to violently expand and are not suitable for use on more than Coyotes, Yet there are some controlled expansion bullets that are made in .224" that are designed for penetration. Make no mistake bullet diameter and mass do have a place in the equation as does velocity, neither camp fat and slow or speedy and light has more claim to better effectiveness than the other, it requires a properly constructed bullet, of sufficient mass and speed to perfom as designed to cleanly take game as effectively as possible. Most load manuals- Hornady's for sure have a section on the design velocities and what their bullets are suitable for use on. It pays to do a little research.

quote:

Originally posted by OldFart:
Are bullets designed to blow up inside a coyote capable of busting through the ribs or shoulder of one of the 300 pound deer that everyone has running around? I guess everyone knows my opinion on that one, but is there a bullets in the 204 or 224 that is designed for such a shot? I really can't answer that, but if nothing else it certainly justifies someone who uses these calibers to be even more careful about that shot.

FWIW...... It's my opinion that a bullet designed to blow up inside a coyote should not be used on medium or large game, no matter what the caliber. There are .284 and .308 bullets I wouldn't think of loading to shoot at a deer. I have seen some .224 combos work horribly well on PA whitetails (although not the 300 lb. variety).

.221 Fireball and 52 gr. Hornady match. Hard nose penetrates like a bull.

.222 Rem. and the 60 gr. Partition works good.

I'm also thinking if a guy's bound and determined to shoot .22's at deer, the 62 or 70 gr. TSX oughta be as tits as tits gits. "Careful" is obviously the key word in any of this silliness.

quote:

When you slow down the velocity of a bullet, the milk jug tests start to come apart...

A slow moving bullet, even a light fragile varmint bullet will easily penetrate thru a milk jug full of H20 quite easily...or a batch of them in a line...

I never said the milk jug test was perfect. Is there any test out there that can perfectly simulate game that doesn't cost a massive amount of money. However, it does provide me a good way to compare bullet performance by assuring a consistent test.

However, I disagree that the milk jug test comes apart at slow velocites. If a bullet doesn't shed it weight, I expect the bullet to penetrate farther in game animals as well. In fact, I tested one 30 caliber bullet in a 300 WBY down to a 30-06, and finally to a 300 whisper just to understand what happens as the bullet slows down.

quote:

Once again your lack of knowledge is your problem. When I curently shoot deer with my 233 wssm i use a Barns 52 gr TSX. It's not made to blow up on the inside of a cyote.

All right, you got me there...Dammit. However, I don't believe they make one of these for the 204, the original topic of the post.

quote:

So the scirocco did exactly what it was suposed to do and you are mad? Heck a Patition will lose it's nose rapidly and about 40% of it's weight too, and people swear they are THE bullet for game hunting.

Actually the second bullet on the left is a partition (140 gr. 7mm) and held its mushroom much better than the scirocco. I was testing these for a Elk hunt, so I eliminated the scirocco. I personally feel that for normal shots, framentation is bad. My perfect bullet is one that mushrooms perfectly, holds 100% of its weight, and leaves a exit hole. I believe fragmentation is good only for a neck shot, or a gut shot, neither of which I plan for when developing loads.

10.75x68s safari results:
Spectacular one shot kill!,.....never,never go anywhere undergunned.


Oh,Sorry! , you said small big game hunting with big small guns.

Hey OF, I've never had a lot of "patience" and from your posts, it appears "you" might be the one that got my share when they were handing it out.

there was also something in G&A about the 304 used on warthog,not my idea of sporthunt,but if you are a good shot then