I am getting ready to book my hunts for the upcoming season and cannot decide between these two for something a little different. The bison hunt is in South Dakota in December and is on a 62,000 acre ranch fenced into 10,000 acre pastures. The Axis deer hunt is in eastern Texas in May or June and is on a smaller ranch, but with no fences. Also, if I opt to go for bison is my .300 Win. Mag. with 180 grain Barnes X's enough gun?

Do both! Axis and bison are the best game meats in North America (yes, better than moose or elk).

They're two entirely different hunts, too. You'll either sit in a blind or spot-and-stalk for axis, while you'll probably just spot-and-shoot your bison.

The .300 Win. is more than enough for axis; I've taken them with rifles (.25-06 & .30-06), as well as handguns (.44mag, .309JDJ).
I shot my bison with a .30-30 Contender pistol (brain shot). Your .300 will kill a bison, but excepting a central nervous system hit, it won't react to being hit.

George

------------------
Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

I am always gonna vote for Bison when they are an option. Depending on how much you want to spend, you might try the Bison hunt up on the Crow Indian Reservation in Montana. There are no fences and critters taken are Boone and Crockett eligible. Contact www.hunts.net as they are, I think, the only people who book this hunt. This is a "real deal" bison hunt but will probably cost around $4K or $5K USD.
A .300 mag is fine with heavy 200+ grain premium bullets (The Barnes-X is ideal I think) but, for God's sake, keep shooting! Don't shoot once and expect it to fall over. Some people have a tendency to shoot once and just stand there admiring their handiwork. I shot my last bison three times with a .416 Rem after stalking to within about 30 yards and he didn't even react to the first shot in the "engine room", flinched slightly at the second in the same region and fell over only when I raised the rifle a bit and shot him in the spine. these critters are a whole lot tougher than most people give them credit for.
ALWAYS remember to completely reload before appoaching the animal too. As I knew my bull was down for the count, I forgot this little rule only to find four other bulls right over the ridge that mine was laying on. They all stood up at about 10 yards and looked at me like "what the hell do you want"? I only had one shot left in the tube. OOPS!

Good Hunting,

JohnTheGreek

Seamus
I'll second John's reccomendation. If you are after meat and using the 300 on the Bison I would suggest a solid bullet and a brain shot. Body shots with the 300 will result in many shots taken and possibly considerable meat loss. By the way, on a mature bull you will end up with about 350 to 400 pounds of boned out meat.

I have personally seen 300 Win Mags destroy Swift Aframes on a bison's skull without penetrating. So be warned. Oh and that tiny little 300 want warrant any respect from Mr. Bison he most likely will not even register a hit, you will have to look for the dust cloud.

John,

My 500 knocks them big boys right down! Hows that. I have shot a moose with a 416 Rigby with similar results to what you posted regarding the bison. The bullet punched through and the moose took off. The only other moose I have ever shot was with a 505 Gibbs. He went right down and HARD!

Todd E

Todd,

Interestingly, none of my bullets on this last Bison overpenetrated (if there is such a thing). No exit holes. All of them presumably (since none were recovered) expanded well as I have never had any X-bullets lose petals on the big stuff like Eland, Kudu or Sable. I have lost petals however on shorter range shots on smaller game i.e. Bushbuck or Kudu cows. Where did you place the shot with the .500? Did you hit bone?
I agree with you that the head shot is a good one with heavy solids in the .300WM but some guys want the skull as a wall-hanger. if he wants to save some meat, Seamus might try going for the second or third vertabra from the side. Not a bad shot if you know the internal anatomy. It even provides a bit of margin for error if you miss forward too but then you risk hitting the horn. My first bison was hit with this shot (about 3-4" rear of the bottom of the right horn and 3-4" below it). The thing dropped like a stone until we got about 10 feet from it and then it got up and ran off . I fired two more shots with the second hitting the spine and ending the affair. Turns out my initial shot was a bit forward and was broken up by the back of the skull (BAD bullets from a 45-70). With proper bullets and decent skill, this is, I believe, a great shot to take on Bison.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

[This message has been edited by JohnTheGreek (edited 03-29-2002).]

I also concur with John and the others..go get a bison. I only have shot one so far..a 3 year old bull. I was using a .338 with 200 grain Hornedy bullets..first one hit low in the neck and the animal did not even flinch. Second shot when to the back side of the skull, just under the right horn, and the animal dropped like a box of rocks. The bullet penetrated maybe six inches, enough to kill the beast, but it also disintegrated...there was no bullet and no exit wound. The next bison will be shot with at least a .378 Wby and 300gr Barnes-X bullets.

John,

That is unexpected. What velocity was your load getting? I have not shot any bison with the Rigby, but everything I have shot with it has been overpenetrated! I load my Rigby hot so a 410 grain Woodleigh should have a velocity at 100 yards of 2550 fps.

The moose were both shot in the lowere forward chest area. I did not break the shoulder on either as I recall. You'll have to forgive my poor memory but is was 18 or so years ago when I blasted the moose with the 505. It was '94 when I shot one with the Rigby. I was shooting 410 Woodleigh Soft points.

Where did you take your plains bison here in the lower 48?

Todd E

Todd E,

I load my .416 Rem at a muzzle velocity of 2400 FPS as that's what I figure the 400 grain X-bullet was designed for. I really believe that the apparently slight 150 FPS second difference is causing your overpenetration. You might remember "the perfect shot" and what he has to say about the .375 and it occasional overpenetration. If I remember correctly, I think Robertson blames the extra 100-150 fps that exists in the .375 over some of the other classic cartridges used for Elephant.
That said, I have had great and welcomed penetration on other stuff with the .416. My Eland was shot through the meatiest part of the shoulder and the bullet was recovered from under the skin of the opposite shoulder. He staggered for a second and fell over. I really anticipated an exit wound and a quick kill from just 30 yards on that last Bison but there was neither. Thick hide/hair and lots of muscle to go through I suppose. Wish I had found those bullets. I'm wondering now if they lost all their petals or just a couple and the internal trajectory was made goofy.
My first Bison was on a large ranch (likely the same one mentioned by Seamus) and to be honest, I wasn't entirely comfortable with it. Even though the critter had ample opportunity for escape and it was, in that sense, fair chase it still burned in my gut a bit. I'm not saying Seamus is a bad guy or unethical for booking this trip, it just aint for me I guess. I learned a lot about myself on that trip. Since then, I have taken to searching out "real deal" Bison hunts and saving my pennies until I can go. That Crow Indian Reservation hunt in Montana is supposed to be a hell of a trip but costs about 3X what South Dakota does. I am either gonna work on that one for next winter or maybe go to the Yukon Territory again or try for European Bison in Poland, Hungary or Belarus. I am also likely to draw a cow tag this year in the Henry Mountains here in Utah as odds are about 1/3 (1/3 for cows . . . bulls may as well be 1/5000) and I have failed to draw for the last four years I'm hoping those preference points actually do some good this year!

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

I guess I'd go for the bison hunt (I'm biased though, I've already got an Axis on the wall). BTW I don't what the problem with "fair chase" is in a 10000 acre pasture... there are places in south Africa with smaller areas under fence. Its more of a question (as always) as to how "wild" your quarry is. Besides the meat from a bison, which to my taste is far superior to axis the trophy is a whole lot more impressive - IMHO. As far as your rifle goes, I'd be inclined to use as much gun as you can handle - a bison hunt would be the perfect reason to pick up that .375 or .416 you've always wanted.

[This message has been edited by Long Pig (edited 03-29-2002).]

Long Pig,

There is a HUGE difference between 10,000 acres in the South African low veld and even 50,000 acres of South Dakota plains. You can easily lose a trophy Kudu bull in this RSA terrain but it is a bit tougher to lose a 2200 pound black bovid on the tan rolling plains of South Dakota. Again, I'm not gonna condemn anyone for stuff I myself have done, but there are options out there for the bison hunter. For example, I found a European Bison hunt today that is costing about $3400 USD. This is less than some ranch hunts I have seen in the U.S. and for a damn cool subspecies at that. Granted, you do have to pay for the flight to Bulgaria.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

John,

To me it sounds as if you have more of a problem with the landscape than the "free chase" aspect of hunting bison on the range. Back in the old days bison hunting without fences was NO BIG CHALLENGE either. Otherwise they would not have slaughtered 60 million of them in 15 years!

Personally, I find pronghorn and whitetail hunting to be no more challenging than bison when hunting in Iowa, South Dakota, eastern Montana, eastern Wyoming, etc. You can literally see your quarry from miles away.

Not to sound like an ass, but I do not consider chasing wounded game as fair chase hunting either. I consider that to be poor marksmanship and/or bad luck! Fair chase simply means that the animal is not pinned and can run away from you if it so desires.

The bison in Utah are hardly afraid of people either. They are quite easy to walk up to. I have been there done that. The Utah bison are about as spooky as the Yellowstone Park variety.

Todd E

Todd,

I agree that hunting Bison on the range was never terribly difficult as that was my rationale on the South Dakota trip. Did you manage to draw a Henry Mountain tag in your past? If so, you are a whole lot luckier than I . . . so far (draw results come out the end of April) .
I know what fair chase means to me and it clearly means different things to different people. To me, there are "hunts" and then there are "interesting hunts". Come hunt one of them big shaggy critters with me in the Yukon next year. Real interesting hunt as those things are spooky and live up in sheep country.
I am just going to pretend you aren't taking a personal jab at me and my dubious initial neck shot with your last post. I do believe everyone misplaces a shot now and again unless you got bionic eyes.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

John,

I reread your last post (one just before my last post) and I misread what your said. I was thinking that you meant you could easily lose a wounded Kudu in the bush. Obviously that is NOT what you were saying. I stand corrected and apologize.

I would go with you to the Yukon, but I hunt for meat more now than adventure. I must agree that there is nothing interesting about shooting anything on the great plains! It is too damned easy. The ease of sighting by the way is the reason that deer can only be taken with shotguns, muzzleloaders, and handguns in Iowa. You can shoot everything esle in Iowa with a high powered rifle but a deer. I have a cousin who farms there and let me tell you I have been involved in one deer extermination (received permission to shoot the deer as vermin). We used high power rifles and killed in two days we (my cousin and I) killed over 40 deer. We could see them coming and going from over a mile away. They didn't have a chance.

Todd E

Todd E,

No problem. I have had a long day and am probably a bit high strung I should have said its easy for a Kudu bull to lose the hunter in the RSA while its a different story with a Bison on the plains.
I can imagine Iowa is an interesting experince when you have license to take that many deer in 48 hours. Sounds a lot like those cull hunts you can take in Australia for feral donkeys and camels and such. I've heard that these guys fill a 5 gallon bucket with ammo to see how many donkeys they can get to the gallon.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

Todd-

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no harder hunt in the Lower 48 than the Henry Mtn buffalo. Yes, some may stumble across a buffalo next to the road, or happen upon them before the first shot is fired. But these are the exception.

The Henries produce buffalo that are hard earned. These Buff are NOT comparable to "Yellowstone". Some live in the cedars, allowing them cover. Some live at 11,000 ft on TOP of Mt Ellen, above the tree line. They live in rough country. Once the first shots are fired they are as wild as any game animal in the Lower 48. And once you kill one, you are usually trying to figure out how to get it back to the truck.

I have been on 3 Buff hunts on the Henries and we have been successful once. One year we killed a 3 1/2 yr bull, then we didn't find a cow, then we passed cows and young bulls looking for Mister Big, but we never did find him. Just 2 years ago the success rate for Henry Buff was 65%.

Shooting a buff on a ranch is like shooting our range bulls. Only thing is the Buff meat tastes better and some of our wild bulls will chase a person down faster than a Buff. hehe

All IMHO. Good luck on the hunts

MGC,
You must be a very lucky guy drawing three separate bison tags. I think however that you are confusing topography with hunting. While I agree it is a pain to hike around in the high mountains and pack out animals it is not necessarily hard to shoot one when you find it.

Buffalo in Africa are not at all difficult to shoot. Finding them is the most difficult. Yellowstone has some pretty challenging areas to traverse also from the perspective of dragging a bison out.

The thing that truly cracks me up is that it is only a hunt if you are lucky enough to draw a tag, which if all the prospective bison hunters attempted to draw only 1 in a million would get to hunt. Your Utah bison are just as managed as most farm raised free ranging (pasture fed) bison. The state of Utah knows a nauseating deal about that bison herd of yours. The state of Utah decides how many bison can be harvested just like any other farmer. The only difference really is that the state of Utah has one BIG range to go run around on! So spare me all the BS about how difficult a hunt it is. The only difficulty is trudging around at 10,000+ feet over difficult terrain. I would wager if left to their own designs the bison would get the hell out of the mountains for "better pastures" to.

John,
We weren't hunting. We were shooting. We had to turn over the carcasses to the local Conservation Officer or Sheriff. I was just adding to your point that there isn't much challenge in hunting on the wide open plains. We received permission from the state of Iowa because of crop damage being done by the deer.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 03-30-2002).]

If anyone is looking for a sporty bison hunt try the herd along the Sikkanni river in northern BC.They've been hunted for quite a few years now and they are surprisingly wary.
When we found my bull he was about 2/3 of the way up a mountain with elk below and stone sheep above.There were two bulls together.We had to stalk upwards through the elk to get to them and it was a lot of fun.Mine took 3 solid chest hits from a .338 before he dropped and my buds took 7 shots from a .444 and a .300.We started shooting at about 100 yds and they ran towards us.Mine dropped at about 30 yds and my buds at about 20 yds as he ran past us.It sounded like world war 3 up on that mountain and it sure was a lot of fun.Dragging those big capes and heads and quarters wasn't nearly as much fun though.We got them about 2 hours after daylight in the morning and it was dark when the four of us got them to the snowmobile trail at the bottom.

Alberta John,

Let me be the first to welcome you to the forum! Bunch of good people around here who don't mind getting their brain picked for useful information here and there.
My experience in the Yukon was similar to yours in BC. I shot mine on top of the mountain at noon and it took us four days from that moment to cape, clean and get the animal to the vehicle. Those 250cc snow machines weren't quite enough I dare say.
How does one go about hunting the BC herd that you speak of? I know there is a herd of Wood/Plains Bison crosses in northern Alberta that can be hunted without a licence if they are outside a particular boundary. Is the BC herd you speak of a similar sitaution or would I have to draw a tag?

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

Come on Todd. I was just stating that hunting the Buffalo of Utah's Henry Mtn is harder than a Yellowstone hunt or a South Dakota "Truck" hunt.

You speak out of both sides of your mouth. First you say that "I was just adding to your point that there isn't much challenge in hunting on the wide open plains." You call the terrain as being part of the hunt. Then you say that I am "confusing topography with hunting."

You also said, "While I agree it is a pain to hike around in the high mountains and pack out animals it is not necessarily hard to shoot one when you find it." Is this not true with most animals? Is not spotting, hiking, packing part of the hunt?? That is exactly what Hunting is. Now Killing is going to the ranch to shoot a cow, I mean buffalo.

You sound like the kind of guy that compares a 1,000 acre High Fence elk hunt to hunting the Thorofare of Wyoming. Guess what, they are not the same.

SEAMUS-I would go with a Buff hunt, great meat.

Thanks for the welcome John,i appreciate it.
From what i understand the herd along the Sikanni are from a herd of domestic plains bison that were turned loose or escaped in the 70's or so.You require a tag and would have to go through an outfitter.Mike Hammet of Sikanni River Outfitter had some last time i heard and there may be others.Your best bet would be to check with the the GOABC.
The herd of hybrids in northern alberta are fair game as soon as they leave Wood Buffalo Park last time i heard,no season,no bag limit,we have king sized varmints here in Alberta.LOL..Quite a few are infected with TB and brucellosis so they want any that wander south to not reach the farmland and livestock.You might find a guide or outfitter by contacting the town of Ft Vermillion.I'd be a little leary about cleaning one myself but apparently F&W will test them for free and let you know if the meat is ok.

MGC,

I do not speak out of both sides of my mouth. I simply stated a fact. If you are hunting in open rolling prairie it is much easier all around logistically than if you are hunting in the high mountains! It is not a difficult concept to grasp.

So if you are going after antelope, deer, bison, whatever in the prairie is is beau coupe easier than the same quarry would be in the high mountains from a logistical standpoint. I am a lazy individual so I would opt for the easier land first. Now if I wanted to drop a few pounds while hunting I would opt for the mountains as they will work a bit of fat off of me.

Once you get within range of the animal it matters very little were you are (prairie or mountains) you just aim and fire. After that the logistics gets into the equation again.

Now if you like to do things the hard way you obviously will opt for the mountains first.

Now do you understand were I am coming from.

Todd E