I have been reading some other forums about the Partition and Accubond. A set of post from John Baranse (sp)of Handloader, Rifle, and Safari Press magazine keep coming up.

He argues that retained weight is a least important factor in penetration and expansion or lack there off is most important in determining how much a bullet will penetrate.

I agree with him that a bullet that expands to a large surface has more resistance in tissue, creating more surface area for friction to work upon, and is using more energy to expand that could be used to penetrate.

However, I do not agree, intuitively, that weight retained is least important. The more weight, more correctly mass, retained the more a projectile should penetrate. With most bullets designs retained weight and lack of expansion go hand in hand. The retained weight allows the bullet to limit expansion and give further penetration. Therefore, discounting bullet weight as least important is, foolish.

What say the body politic?

The design of the bullet is more important the weight or expansion.

That is kind of my point. If you build a bullet out of solid bronze, then the bullet will keep its weight and go like an express train.

However, build a bullet to shed weight, like a Winchester varmint bullet that is not only a hollow point, but the hollow point has no lead, just thin jacket and let it rupture losing weight, the bullet does not penetrate (relative speaking.

I think folks are trying to be too smart or be the first to say something in print. All these factors are equal. You cannot put one factor over the other. All have to be present or balanced to what objective the bullet is to accomplish.

I have been maintaining my weight and expanding.

ain't we all... LOL

weight equals momentum and momentum is needed to penetrate.
everything else is trying to slow down or stop the bullet.[including the air]
weight/momentum is the only thing keeping it going.

Welllll

Its like most things. Where do you draw the line?

In general I disagree too. What is needed is a good balance between both. You need the expansion to do damage. You need weight to drive the expanded bullet all the way thru the vitals.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
I have been maintaining my weight and expanding.

For the heftier bullets, should be refer to expansion as a muffin top instead of a mushroom?

Jeremy

I would say it is a weight to frontal diameter to shape to velocity to expansion rate to resistive substance equation. Which is to say yes. Sectional density of the expanded bullet is a key factor in penetration. Blah? Blah blah blah?
There are many very components to the penetration equation, but SD of the expanded projectile and rate of expansion are the key. I have seen multiple 10ga. slugs that are north of what, 500 grains? that did not exit deer shot sideways at 40 yards. Slug recovered mostly intact and nearly the size of a table coaster. 62 grain .223 Barnes TSX from a .223Rem in one side out the other of Bambis mother, probably still flying. Same end result, but 62 grains in, through, and out. 500 grains maybe smeared to 440 grains recovered a F*%$ing frisbee. I hate to say it, but John might be right.

Just shoot the TTSX and forget about it.

Weight retention, expansion, and penetration, all in one!!

There is always the Cutting Edge Bullet! The Safari Raptor is a hollow point mono-metal that is designed to shed the 6 petals in 6 different directions inside the body while the remaining shank has straight line penetration.

quote:

posted 02 April 2019 10:37
Just shoot the TTSX and forget about it.

Weight retention, expansion, and penetration, all in one!!

Yep. Great advice. Save yourself all the angst.

This is a 300 grain Barnes that weighed 299.1 grains



After traveling through about four feet of buffalo


These are four of the petals off of a 235 grain CEB Extended Range Raptor, this bullet exploded on the shoulder joint of a bushbuck at 200 meters and failed to penetrate the vitals.



I shoot Barnes bullets exclusively now.

I think you are referring to John Barness, correct?

Weight retention and expansion vs. explosive expansion is a relative thing. By that I mean that on a 90 lb. Coues deer or coast blacktail you may want the explosive expansion rather than wasting bullet energy on the thin air after the bullet passes through the deer. Conversely, with a moose, grizzly or cape buffalo you probably want your bullet to hold together and PENETRATE.

Horses for courses, so adjust your loads to the job at hand.

That would be the gentleman. Barnes’s. I am not convinced one criteria is determinative,

A 10gague slug weighing 500 grains is not a heavy weight for .775 Caliber projectile. It is also soft lead. So light for caliber, soft lead (construction), allows rapid expansion equates to limited penetration. It is a balance. You are correct though retained weight is high in your recovered slugs. But the projectile is designed more for expansion than penetration. I submit being light weight and soft lead it is not balanced, but does not need to be to hammer deer.

Barnes expand less for caliber compared to a bonded soft point, but it also retains more weight. It expands less and retains weight so it penetrates extremely well. The results are less trauma (relative speaking on buffalo with larger calibers not an issue) some degree of less wounding compared to a lead core bonded bullet that loses some weight and expands more. The bonded lead bullet will penetrate less, but with enough retained weight they do exit.

In summary, bullets require balance. No one factor is depostive from a penetration stand point. Unless, you want to count construction which is really a combination of retained weight and lack of expansion with noise design.

How much do the Raptor bullets weigh after the petals break off? I bet it is at least 85 percent of original weight, but I am fine with being wrong.

If I remember correctly Barsness published this information after running a lot of tests on different bullets.

The way I read his original article was that the superior weight retention of bonded bullets did not lead to greater penetration because the bonded bullets tended to have a greater frontal area than non bonded bullets(talking about cup and core and partition type bullets).

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

Barnes expand less for caliber compared to a bonded soft point , but it also retains more weight. It expands less and retains weight so it penetrates extremely well. The results are less trauma (relative speaking on buffalo with larger calibers not an issue) some degree of less wounding compared to a lead core bonded bullet that loses some weight and expands more. The bonded lead bullet will penetrate less, but with enough retained weight they do exit.

I can't agree with the highlighted statements at all. My experience is the Barnes expands just as much as any bonded soft point. I'll bet if you measured 100 expanded X bullets against say, 100 A-Frames, you'd find an almost identical expanded diameter. My experience with them is they inflict devastating trauma and MORE wounding compared to a lead core bonded bullet even if they exit, which they normally do. One of the reasons they create MORE wounding is the weight retention in that the retained mass, even with expansion, allows for a deeper wound channel (often all the way through) than a typical soft that stops short. That's the reason I shoot them. Same level of expansion as a bonded core soft, similar penetration to a solid, best of all worlds.


I really wasn't trying to be flippant when suggesting the TSX or TTSX. It really changed the way we think of bullet construction and performance. You get it all with the Barnes. I know some have reported them penciling though and not opening. I've shot a hell of a lot of them from .243 though 500NE and every niche between the two with the exception of .257 and the .35's. Shot all kinds of critters from varmints to buffalo. Most have either been DRT or dead with 50 yards, with the exception of a couple of buffalo (tough bastards they are!). As to them not opening on softer skinned animals, I killed two leopards with them (300 H&H 180gr and 375 H&H 300gr) that were dead under the tree. Killed two lions with them (416 Rigby 350gr and 375 H&H 300gr). First was dead within 20 yards, second never took a step. Good bullets IMHO.

As to the CEB Raptors, I've had good experience with them as well. Shot impala baits, kudu cow baits, warthogs, and a male lion with them out of the 9.3x74R. Good performance with all. Shot a buffalo bull with the .577NE. Hard to say how that bullet performed as I didn't hit him correctly on the first shot due my misjudging how he was standing. Bullet went in behind the front right shoulder and was found lodged under the skin on the opposite rear quarter. I seem to remember finding some of the pedals but don't remember where they were located, but there were quite a few additional bullets fired into that bull so they could have come from any of them. In any event, the bullet didn't smash into the front shoulder as it went in too far back so I can't say if the pedals would have penetrated properly if I had hit him correctly on the first shot. The animals shot with the 9.3 all were DRT or ran less than 20 yards. The lion went down immediately, then rolled down the hill into the sand river bed.

I wouldn't hesitate to shoot either one. In fact, in my double 9.3, the TSX bullets cross and I can't use them. Also, I can't use the cap inserts in the Safari Raptors as the rifle won't stabilize them. The rifle is finicky. But they shoot the Safari Raptor and Solids very well.

John Barsness is a wealth of knowledge, and a nice guy too. I've read his articles for years, especially the bullets/ballistics and optics ones. He does have a journal of literally thousands of bullets and how they perform on game, first hand knowledge of either his own use, his wife's his buddies, or people he has guided both here and abroad.

He has stated time and time again, and it jives with my own notes of some 300 big game animals killed, that mono's like the Barnes, GMX, ETip, etc will out-penetrate any cup and core or bonded bullet made, but do not kill as quickly as rapidly fragmenting bullets, or even controlled expansion bullets like the Accubond and Partition. The monos are great killers, they just don't do it quite as quickly, on average. Obviously a hunter must consider the quarry when using any bullet. Anybody with half a clue wouldn't use a Berger VLD on a DG hunt, for example.

My personal favorite is the Accubond and partition (not including DG bullets because I've never hunted them). They offer the perfect combination of penetration and expansion, and efficient killing power IME. Nosler wrote the book on bullet performance with the introduction of the partition some 65 years ago (I consider the performance of the Accubond nearly identical, like a "tipped partition"), and it is still the gold standard for bullet performance. That's why every other manufacturer has tried to duplicate the Partition's on game performance for over 6 decades, and nothing beats it, once again IMO/IME.

There are two schools of thought on this subject and they have been discussed already in the above posts, and in fact for ages..However a factor in this threads scenario has been left out, and that is the game the bullet is intended to be used on..a high velocity expanding bullet that tends to come apart will kill deer like a lightening bolt. The deer is a high strung hot blooded animal deep penetration is not needed. You will get quick kills with cup and core bullets at high velocity or slow velocity on deer..On a Elk or Moose you get quite the opposite results, and penetration is first and foremost, expansion of course is required..Deer and PG shot with heavy slow expanding bullets seem to make more tracks, but leave good blood trails and are almost always recovered and eatable meat is a plus to consider with such a bullet..Light exploding bullet get beautiful kills, lots of blood shot meat, and IMO they tend to fail on ocassion and the animal is lost or a long tracking job resulets..John Barness does not agree with the fact that bullets explode on contact according to a recent article he wrote, as he states he has never witnessed it?? and on with that I must in all respect take exception with him as I have seen it more than a few times. It was common back in the day of the 220 swift, and Ive seen it with the .222, and I shot 3 deer with early Nosler Balistic Tips that literly exploded on deer shoulder, but killed the deer in each case and the lungs appeared to have been hit by bird shot..

My favorite bullets have been the Nosler partition for years and today I like the as well or better for elk and larger game up to but not including Cape buffalo..For deer and smaller PG I like almost any cup and core bullet, Hornady Speer, Sierra, Rem Corelokts and Winchester Power points. For one bullet for all NA game, Id probably go with the Accubond, but its not the only choice out there, there are many.

Barnes and GS customs are a whole nuther story and come with lots of pros and cons..but there is no doubt they are a good all around bullet.

Todays bullets make these conversations old hat, the bullet companys have done one hell of a job. We still think in the dark ages of bullet development and its all changed, the failures of the 1940s and 50s are a thing of the past..Light fast bullets with a bonded core just plain work, long heavy bullets with a bonded core work as well..take your pick, try them both..

I pick a bullet that will penetrate lengthwise or near lengthwise of the game I intend to hunt, and one that will give me an entrance hole and exit hole on a broadside shot 98% of the time.

In my experience when hunting thin skinned game up to cape buffalo a Nosler Partition is ideal. They initially violently expand causing massive tissue damage but continue to penetrate as the base stays solid. They don't look pretty if you retrieve one since they only retain 60%-70% of their weight but they work like a charm. Given that retained weight unto itself is not that important. For buffalo and larger big game I've found the TTSX or TSX to work very well. They are ideal when deep penetration is of most importance.

A hit through both front shoulders with a TSX on smaller big game causes DRT but a clean lung shot will often cause a pretty long run before the animals dies. The same hits with the NP will end with DRT or a very short tracking job. This is what I've found shooting quite a few animals with both bullets. Having said that you will at some point have a bullet behave in a completely nonsensically manner regardless of bullet type.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
In my experience when hunting thin skinned game up to cape buffalo a Nosler Partition is ideal. They initially violently expand causing massive tissue damage but continue to penetrate as the base stays solid . They don't look pretty if you retrieve one since they only retain 60%-70% of their weight but they work like a charm. Given that retained weight unto itself is not that important. For buffalo and larger big game I've found the TTSX or TSX to work very well. They are ideal when deep penetration is of most importance.

A hit through both front shoulders with a TSX on smaller big game causes DRT but a clean lung shot will often cause a pretty long run before the animals dies. A hit through both front shoulders with a TSX on smaller big game causes DRT but a clean lung shot will often cause a pretty long run before the animals dies. The same hits with the NP will end with DRT or a very short tracking job. This is what I've found shooting quite a few animals with both bullets. Having said that you will at some point have a bullet behave in a completely nonsensically manner regardless of bullet type.

Mark

Not my experience with either bullet.

I had 4 partitions completely come apart on an Alaska hunt in 1998. Two into a caribou from about 150 yards and 2 into a moose from about 50 yards. Both animals shot with a 340 WBY. Yes, the animals died so from that standpoint they worked. But in all 4 cases, the back end of the Partition completely came apart and the lead separated from the jacket.

With the TSX and TTSX, I've shot several Whitetails through the lungs, or a near frontal shot, completely missing the shoulder bones. I don't remember any of them running any distance. Most were bang flops. The furthest I can remember one running is about 50 yards. Both of the leopards I shot, one with the 180gr TTSX from a 300 H&H at 35 yards and the other with a 300gr TSX from a 375 H&H from about 60 yards, went in and exited behind the shoulders, never smashing bone other than ribs. Both were dead under the tree with Zero run. Leopards are about as soft a target as you'll find, especially with a 300gr from the 375 H&H.

Just goes to show, different experiences.

Wish Barsness was there when I had a blowup on
a cow elk @ 200yards with a 180gr C/L on the ribs.
Hole on the surface was about 2" wide and 9" long, two ribs had sections gone. Never made it
into the near lung.

How many million elk have been killed with corelokts? Seven in camp all shoot .300Wins.
I loaded 500 all the same and we split 'em up.

I know of half dozen or more shot with these
loads at 30 feet to 50 yards and never another problem.

WHY at 200 yards did that one blow up on ribs?

All the rest I have will be used for punching
paper, not game. I've gone to Game Kings 200gr but,
haven't had a shot the two years I hunted with them before I got sick.

Something else that bugs the hell out of me.
Why would anyone shoot edible game in the meat?

George

All this is nothing but trying to find a solution to a problem that does not exists.

Usual for gun writers, as there is not much left for them to tell us about.

Match the ammo to the game you are hunting.

A mono bullet will GENERALLY out penetrate a lead core bullet.

The opposite CAN happen too, depending on the circumstances.

Light jacketed bullets will blow up, driven fast enough!

No question there whatsoever.

I have purposely used a non hunting, violently expanding bullet, at very high speed, to see what happens.

I used the Sierra 180 grain Match King, 30 caliber, driven at almost 3,500 FPS.

I shot many animals, including supposedly tough animals like wildebeest and zebra.

Every single one dies with one shot.

Bullets were not recovered, as they disintegrated completely!

The shocking part is some animals dies from what we could see as non immediately lethal wound.

For example a zebra was shot, hit on the shoulder.

The bullet never penetrated into the chest cavity at all, but blew almost a foot wide crater on the shoulder.

I think the shoulder blade was not damaged at all.

Todd,

Your experience only goes to prove what I said about bullets not behaving consistently. I also shot caribou and moose with a 340 WBY and NP's. I found that combo to be a hammer.

Mark

For sure Mark.

Kind of like some guys having no problems with Fords and all 5 of them I've owned being certified lemons.

Hard to figure out why experiences would be so different, but they are.

I remember after my experience with the Partitions, I switched to the Speer Grand Slams for a while. Those had the bonded softer lead in front to the harder lead towards the rear, all bonded to the jacket. Never recovered one so can't really speak to their performance other than they killed a few whitetails fine.

Of course the Partitions I had that I considered failures did kill the animals, but I wanted something better. That said, they came out of the same box for that caribou and moose hunt. Could be I just got a bad batch and nothing more than that.

I was more responding to your comment about shooting a TSX through the lungs with no shoulder impact. I've just not had much of a follow up with those types of shots either and brought up the 2 leopards as they are generally considered pretty soft targets. I see guys recommend frangible bullets for leopard quite often and warnings about the TSX being too "hard" for them. A set of 2 is nothing to draw absolute conclusions on but both being dead under the tree, hitting the ground with a "sack of potatoes thump" worked for me.

I can only think of three animals shot with TSX bullets where they didn't fall within 20 yards or so and in sight necessitating actually having to do a tracking job looking for blood. One was a pretty good sized boar hog my youngest shot with a .243 from about 150 yards. Found him but very little blood on the ground. This being one of the issues with the TSX that our very experienced friend Larry Shores has described before as well. Another was a hog my oldest shot with a 30/06. Didn't find that one and we think he just didn't hit it very well. Lots of blood and bone chips. Probably hit too high in the shoulder. The last being a buff cow my youngest shot with a 375 (video posted somewhere here on AR). That one went about 50 yards and out of sight but then again, we all know about the buff's toughness. It was still a one shot kill.

Anyone who has hunted alot knows that there are no absolutes with bullets and on game performance. I culled 28 whitetail does this past year from a friend's MLD ranch. Most of them were with 120 ballistic tips from a 6.5 Creedmoor. There were no head shots, bullet placement was mostly behind the shoulder shots. Some ran farther than others, some dropped like a lightning bolt hit them, and some ran shorter distances than others. The different reactions to impacts from the exact same bullets is nothing new, really.

The largest Alaskan moose I shot was with a 340 Weatherby (250 NP) at 50 yrs. It was a very BIG mature moose. At the shot the moose did not move. I was stunned. I chambered another round and the moose began swaying like a tree in the wind and all the sudden TIMBER!
The shot was right where I put it. On the off side I could just about put my fist through the exit hole. I loaded those 250's to just shy of 2900 FPS.
Then I had to dress it out and back pack it to a river through endless fields on N heads.
Way to old for that now.

EZ

My experience over the last 40 years is the same as Marks..Ive shot a hell of a lot of game both NA and Africa deer to cape buffalo and never a hint of a failure with Nosler partitions or Accubonds...I think some lean toward the 210 Partition because it kills right there DRT most of the time but will come apart if pushed to hard..Knowing what bullet to use always helps..I like the 225 and 250 depending on the game. Its worked for me.

People go through this same argument over and over again. What never gets into tbe record though is the calculation of how much energy goes into the deformation or destruction (deconstruction) of the bullet and the momentum curve comparisons of the bullet shedding weight and/or velocity. Those are very hard numbers to nail down. They are also the critical numbers to making useful comparisons.

It takes a very large amount of energy to reduce a lead core bullet by 40 percent or so in weight converting that shed weight to particles so fine that they can be neither felt nor seen.

Miles 58,
Not all that complicated from a practical point of view, a box of wet newspaper and a loading bench tells the story on each bullets as for as comparison to each other..I can all but guarantee most bullets fail to expand much at between 1700 and 1800 FPS..The exception seems to be the WW powerpoint and the Remington Corelokts, which came as a big surprise to me..Dry Newspaper or magazine media is much tougher on bullets than wet mag or newpaper media btw...Not scientific but basically the same method the bullet makers use, but their media is gel blocks which are not better than wet magazine except for photographic observation....I have a chart that was produced by Rifle magazine or Handloader?? of expansion by most all the .308 caliber bullets made and from 3100 FPS to 1500 fps showing steps of pen expansion every 100 FPS as I recall, very informative and I duplicated their results almost to a T...real world and no math required.

Not the same as living flesh and bone but close enough for government work IMO..best Ive seen anyway.

I shoot 4 deer every year and then l process them myself. I have done them all since '58. I have yet to see one full of newspaper. Wet or dry. I have also loaded and thoroughly tested what I kill deer with since I started loading my own in '56.

Run the TSXs for 30-30, 40 S&W Or .357 mag through wet media and then come back and tell me about not expanding below 1700-1800 FPS.

quote:

WHY at 200 yards did that one blow up on ribs?

Hole on the surface was about 2" wide and 9" long, two ribs had sections gone. Never made it

Does not sound like a blow up to me sounds like you hit on a angle and it traveled along the ribs and skin out side of the rib cage itself.

A direct broad side shot would have broken only one rib going in.

retained weight vs expansion? I want both!

300g A-Frame, traveled diagonally through a nice 8'6" brown bear. Still weighs 299.5 g

I agree with Chuck375.

To discount retained weight is to discount the law of inertia.

I will have to present my two cents worth in support of the North Fork bullets at this point in the conversation about retained weight and penetration. I have hunted with North Forks for many years, particularly with rifles that shoot them well and it seems most of mine do. First a 370 grain soft point in .416 Rem that I shot a Buffalo with in the
Selous of Tanzania. I hit the Buff just in front of the right hip quartering away, where my PH instructed me to aim. The bullet traversed all the way through the
Buff and lodged in the neck bone at the juncture of the first rib. My tracker dug it out and gave it to me. When I got home I sent it to Mike Brady who started North Fork bullets. He cleaned it up, weighed it, and sent it back to me. It had 99.1 percent of its weight or 366.8 grains. ————- Next I shot a Kongoni with my .358 STA with a 270 grain North Fork loaded to 2810 fps. Hit him in the shoulder square broad side. Recovered the bullet on the far shoulder bulging under the thick hide. It weighed 230.8 grains or 85.5 percent of its weight. Both perfect mushrooms. ———- Next my son shot a huge Bull Elk broad side at 125 yards up a snowy mountain, he collapsed at the shot. He was shooting one of my .358 STA’s with that 270 grain North Fork load the same as the African bullet. When he got up to the Bull he started to dress it then noticed a Cow Elk laying under a cedar tree 25 yards away, she had her head on her foot as if asleep but with her eye open. When she didn’t blow out of there he went over and discovered a spot of blood on the side of her head. She was dead from the same bullet that had gone through the Bull. We dug it out also sent it to Mike for his inspection. We were the only hunters on the mountain that day shooting the North Fork bullet. It weighted 249.3 grains or 92.3 percent of its original weight with another perfect mushroom. He did have tags for a Bull and Cow. I have all three bullets and always will as mementos of the hunts. ———— I hope I have given good account of the North Fork bullets and their ability to maintain weight and penetrate with excellent mushrooms. We shoot many other bullets but none with these traits for weight retention and penetration results. Good Shooting.

Miles 58,
your tirade on experience doesn't even come close to many on this forum, You missed the point that some like to test bullets on some kind of media, not to know how they work on deer, but to compare the bullets to each other. You would have to kill thousands of deer to arrive at what you call expertise...

I shoot between 6 to 90 deer every deer season, culling and have culled hundreds of PG in Africa. I shoot a few elk each year on depredation hunts also and will again this July..

I just feel you were standing yourself up as some self styled expert without the proper background...and insulting many who post here and join in and offer opinion not snide remarks..