All right, went up for opening day, despite the fact that I normally avoid it (in california it is dangerous almost to be up there with so many people, since we have a higher concentration of idiots here we of course have more idiot hunters)

drove up, got there around 8:30pm, threw the bags in the back of the pickup and went to sleep. 12:20am I hear dogs, lots of dogs, getting closer. I situp in the bed of the truck. Into the clearing at the end of the road that I am parked on come three pickups with dogs in back. the guys see me there, so you would think that they would make a turn and leave, try and be considerate. Nope, they spin around fast, throwing clouds of dust all over me. I was pretty pissed off.

Then I am coming home, decided not to stay another day with all those yahoos. There are lots of hairpin turns on the road to and from my hunting spot, so I am coming down through those turns. Luckily I see through the trees in front of me that there is another truck out in front, and start slowing more (gotta take it slow up there, takes about an hour to go 18 miles in those turns) in case they are moving slow.

good thing I saw them, they were dead stopped. Three trucks stopped side by side in the middle of the road, dogs in back (I don't think the same dicks from the night before). two in my lane one in the oncoming lane. I come up behind them and they make no move, just leave me sitting there. It isn't until another truck comes going the other way that the one guy moves, the two in front of me still just sit there, and make me pass on the curve. At least we will never have a shortage of assholes.

So, anybody else here think about a season on people like this sometimes? :-)

happy hunting everybody

Red

I hear you!! Those are the types who tailgate you with high-beams only to take the next turn-off.

We have are share of those types here too. The first weekend of rifle deer season I allways hunt the same walk in unit, there may not be as many deer there as some of the other places I like to hunt but I dont have to deal with the crowds and I have a good time. Most of those guys won't get far from thier trucks.

Jamie

Too bad it's so hard to get a fewsticks of dynomite.

Red;

In Oregon here, we would just chalk that up to Typical Californians, those that think they are so special their shit doesn't stink. Way to many are so self centered, because of the teachings of Dr. Spock back in the 60s to the hippy generation. " Don't discipline your child or you will destroy his creativity and harm his self esteem" Well all of those little brats are now adults!

Please forgive the local term of "Typical Californians." Your concerns show that YOU are the example that all people down that way are not assholes. Translated as someone who has courtesy to other people. Oregon, just like Washington is getting its share of the same type of local assholes. Bad habits, just like good ones spread.

I see a lot of those type of people, and I just get out and ask them if they mind moving so I can be on my way. A lot of times they will apologize and move with no arguements.

Instead of being assholes, they just have their head that far up their ass that they are oblivious that someone else is not on their time frame, with all the time in the world.

Boils back down to courtesy and not being so self centered. I salute you being a concerned citizen instead of one of the self centered head up his ass, assholes you speak of.

Red;
That's exactly why I don't hunt Kalifornia anymore, at least the first two opening weekends anyway!
I went to the Range yesterday instead, thinking all the Dip-Sticks would but up hunting, WRONG!!
Guys who hadn't even unpacked their rifles from last year, were out trying to get'em on paper, and all packed and ready to head out hunting straight from the range! What a frigging circus!

California doesn't have an exclusive on assholes. I've hunted in a lot of places and there seems to be no shortage of assholes anywhere in the world. I've had my stuff run over with 4 wheelers, and had my camps ransacked. Just more cautious and tend to hunt places that are difficult to get into. Places that call for long drives and longer hikes. The people I meet in those places all seem to decent respectful people. Not to say there isn't an asshole in the bunch but at least the odds seem to be in my favor.

Yup, theres no such thing as "common" courtesy anymore. A huge part of my hunt planning thesedays is aimed at getting me away from the crowds of shitheads. I couldnt agree with Seafire more, this lack of consideration and dignity is directly related to piss poor parenting.

While were talking about A-holes I've got to tell you guys about this afternoon. I went up to a local gravel pit that the state maintains for shooting to do a little load workup. I got the other shooters attention and makeing sure everyone knew I was going down range to change a target I walked the 100yrds. to my target along with another guy.I had my back to everyone while I took down my tagets and put up new ones,when this idiot starts shooting at a taget behind me. I yelled and waved my arms, a man next to him stoped him from shooting after 3 shots. I was a litle pissed and let the guy know it. I wanted to hit him pretty bad and would have if he wasnt holding a 9mm. in his hand. I've had enough, I'm going to join a gun club with a rifle range.

Jamie

Seafire,

you are absolutely correct, parenting is the root of most people's behavior. I was a hellion at home, but out of the house I was pretty good, people always wanted to know how I became such a gentleman. It was simple, a very close bonding to my parents, bondings of their belt to my butt! :-)

It kind of puts me in a difficult position too, people being so rude, tell me how you guys feel about this: I find trash up there a lot while roaming around, just before coming back down saturday it was beer cans and food wrappers. If I am staying in a spot (my stepdad's claim gets a lot of campers and sometimes they just piss all over it) I will clean up the stuff I find. Usually though I leave it. It's really hard for me, I like to leave places better than when I got there, and want to keep my forests clean, but worry that if these people come back and see somebody else is cleaning up after them they will be encouraged to keep doing it.

2 weeks ago I would have had to have packed somebody 30 gallon trash bag full (at least they put it in a bag) a few hundred yards to my truck.

Marsh Mule, which range to you go to? I am guessing central valley is San Joaquin?

Jamie, I have something I tell friends and family when they shoot with me the first time. I don't care if it is an accident, if you shoot me I am shooting back!!! Some people just are not safe. Private clubs are good in that regard. I belong to a club in the foothills where I live, about 45min away. Only members and their guests can shoot there, most people just do shotgun stuff. They are relaxed, no range bosses, but hardly ever anybody shooting and the people that are willing to pay a yearly membership fee plus a fee to shoot ($3 for members,$5 for guest, includes targets) are as far as I have seen considerate folks.

Red

My pet peeve is the a-holes who leave their trash parked in the outdoors. In New Mexico, we have some of the most beautiful country in the world and not matter where you go, some buttbreath dumps his, or her, beer containers, or beer bottles and cans. Two years ago I was lucky enough to find a pile of trash in the backcountry that actually had an address on it. I put it in plastic bags, placed the bags in my pickup truck, and when I got back home boxed all the shit up and sent it to the address COD. I can't say if it stopped the bum from dumping trash in the outdoors again, but it sure made me feel better and each time I tell the tale, the folks in the US Forest Service,Park Service and BLM get one heck of a charge out of it. Say they wish more folks would start doing the same. You see, they have to clean up the woods. Tom Purdom

Private range does not stop it all, we have volunteer range officers authorized to chew ass, take names and ask/tell folks to leave. I can get ugly to stupid people, nice to folks that want to learn.
Thomas
I like that idea, cost them money to find a box of their own trsh! Ypou know they really thought is was gonna be worth it . . . and it was, maybe it made a significant impression!

LouisB

This weekend, I came across the worst example of pure, incomprehensible, slob behavior. A local landowner has posted his land OPEN for hunters, with the usual caveats about leaving the gates as you found them, etc. A true rarity, even around here, anymore, and you can believe I will leave the land better than we found it.

When we sat down at one of the cattle loading stations, we looked inside the ramp, and some utter wastes of oxygen had smashed glass bottles all over the insides.

I was fit to be tied. FWIW, Dutch.

I encountered the same situation as the above post, trash with an address on it. I called their home, posing as a Division of Wildlife employee and inquired about their hunt in Colorado. The hunter wasn't home (an attorney from Kansas) but it confirmed it was the correct address on the trash. I mailed quite a bit of their "trophy" to them along with a sarcastic letter, with my name and phone number, but I did not hear from them.
I've since learned that the warden can still issue a ticket with this type of evidence...
Fred

Hornet, I did that once, too. Some moron had dumped about a pickup load of stuff at the place I shoot.

Including a bag with mail in it. I just called the sheriff's office with the guy's name, and where they could find the trash. Next time I went out, it was clean, clean.

Never did hear anything about the details, though. Still, it got cleaned up. FWIW, Dutch.

My son's Eagle Scout project involved cleaning up some illegal dumping... had the local law enforcement folks helping supervise, and did find the dumper's name in the trash. Ooooh did the law enforcement guy's eyes light up!! That dumper got busted.

Ass holes are not just limited to the west coast. We have plenty of sorry ass dog hunters here also. I wish to God they would outlaw dog hunting for deer and about 95 % of our problems here in NC would go away. Nothing like getting in you stand an hour before first light, freezing you ass off, and then at prime time having a pack of curs come through private land and spoil you hunt. The SOB's that turn the dogs out say that the dogs can't read that they are just following the deer. These lazy slobs line the road every couple hundred yards with their trucks and wait for the dogs to drive the deer accross the road. Most are so damn fat they can not even jump the ditch to get the prescibed 10 yards from the road bed.

I think I am going to start shooting dogs this year. Then I will claim poor eyesight and that I thought it was a deer.

We found at the claim site one time not only trash and what not but they had tried to chop down one of the live trees, had been shooting at propane cans (the coleman type) and had lit off some bottle rockets. stepfather found corner of a burnt check with an address on it, local, but has not done anything with it yet. Not sure if it was their check or somebody else's that they burnt.

There is no reason to leave a place like that. I just find it real interesting that I never actually see the people trashing stuff. :-)

The sad thing Dutch about that one you mentioned is that the guy will probably not leave his land open again. nobody wants to be generous and then get pissed on.

Red

my co-worker and i were discussing hunting today (popular topic this time of year), and she was telling me about the deer she got last year. i of course asked her what her rifle was and she said that it was her .220 swift , which is what she always uses, except the year before, when she capped a doe from about 20 yards with a .22lr.

she then had to listen to me for half an hour asking her what the hell she was thinking doing that? .220 swift doesn't have a heavy enough bullet, the .22lr is for gophers, not deer... blah blah blah, i was really holding forth and just starting to feel sorry for her when i asked what she would have done if she would have just gutshot it, and it ran off, she said she would have tracked it over the hill. and i said there would be no way in hell she could track it because a little .22 hole isn't going to leave a blood trail and she said that in that case it would just go off somewhere and die, and the coyotes would have something to eat. besides, she never misses because she and her husband go for head shots only.

after my next 30-minute blow-up, i got to thinking that that is pretty much the attitude of the farmers and ranchers in this area. they don't care if they make meat or not, they just want them dead. not much different than gophers and other "pest" animals. nothing against the farmers and ranchers themselves, because to them the critters ARE probably pests, and also, this is not the attitude of ALL farmers and rancehers, but it did get me to thinking.....

who is right and who is wrong?

p.s. i offered to let her use one of my rifles (7x57, .30/30 or .308), but she said there was no point in making such a big hole!!!!

Tha ranges don't stop it all is absolutely correct. There's always some one who thinks they don't need to follow the rules, or has trouble with basic range etiquette. For example: do not shoot other people's targets; pick up your brass and put it in the trash cans provided (duh); try to avoid bonking your fellow shooters on the head with empties from your autoloader; be aware that as shooters arrive they will probably want to make a trip downrange to set up their targets; and so on...

Anyone who has spent any time at a range has most likely run into any one or all of these annoyances. There are a lot of people who hunt who in no way fit even the most generous definition of "hunter".

9.3

I would not hesitate to use a 220 Swift on deer, at reasonable range. The main problem with them is that they destroy a lot of meat. They have no problem making the animal dead.

As far as range ediquette, It amazes me of how many idiots come to our local range, which is one of the nicest on the west coast.

These guys come in and pay $7.00 to use the range. They leave trash all over the place, they leave their cheap shells brass all over the place ( Russian 7.62 x 39, 223 etc.) They think that $7.00 day fee includes MAID SERVICE also.

And don't you love the bozos that come in when you are zeroing your scope, or target shooting and then they set up next to you and then open up with an Ak 47 and a drum clip to it, and shoot off a couple hundred rounds in 30 seconds, leave their brass all over the place and leave, after missing their target but spraying everyone elses with bullet holes? Or else waste a brand new wooden target stand? They can't get a used one, they have to take a brand new one.

Or Joe Muzzle brake with his Super Mag, no courtesy to the others on the range. It is not hurting his ears. It was funny when I saw a guy pissed enough that he took his rifle over to just behind the guy with the Super Mag and muzzle brake. He put the barrel of his rifle just above the head of the guy with the Muzzle Brake ( who was croutched over his rifle and did not see him). When the guy shooting from the bench let another shot go, the guy behind him let his rifle fire just above the guys head.

Mr. Muzzle brake got up pissed as hell, and ready for a fight. However, the second guy's comment was " Now you know how everyone else here feels when you shoot your rifle ass hole"
Although it was not right in retrospect, it proved the point. Mr. Muzzle brake did not want to fight all ten guys there, so he left and went to complain to the range master.

When the range master came down, all ten guys backed up the other guy. Mr. Muzzle brake was inconsiderate of everyone else and every time he touched the thing off, the muzzle blast rocked everyone on each side of him.

Hell even a 223 with a muzzle brake is not fun to shoot next too. Guys with them need to respect other shooters. I have a Boss on a Winchester 270, and I only shoot it when no one else is on that range, or I just take the Boss off of the rifle.

And for the guy who Sent the trash back to the Lawyer COD, You are my hero for today, hands down!!! Anyone who does that is my hero. We have to take these types of matters into our own hands, because most of these people don't get into any trouble with the authorities any more.
Sending it to them COD collect, is the utmost in fair play!!!!

Wherever I hunt, I take several extra heavy duty plastic bags - when I leave, I always clean up any debris in the area, including soda cans, bottles, paper debris. Locating a dumpster in a nearby town is simple, find a convenience store - seems that setting a positive example is the ethical thing to do in light of the negativity attached to so called "slob hunters", no matter where - KMule

Tasunawitko
I can relate to what you said about non-hunters that shoot animals that they consider vermin. They use a 22 to shoot everything because they consider it to be safer for them, and when they head shoot them they botch the job more often than not. Recently a contract shooter killed a couple goats, a colleague took the skins and I got the meat. Both of them took a long time to die. But your land managers want them dead and they don't care if it's slow or fast. These animal control people have little regard for the animal.

Seafire, anyone that would hold a gun above my head and shoot it, would have a trip in an ambulance just waiting on him!!! and any of the rest "of the 10 guys" that wanted a piece of my a$$ would be riding shotgun with him!!!!! If you don't like noise take up knitting!!!! or move to the other end of the range!

I shoot LARGE handguns, and I pay my money, so I pick my dance partner!!!!!

Here in Texas there is almost no public land to hunt and we pay exorbitant "tresspass fees" to hunt on private land. One one little 260 acre spot we had leased for several years that was dynamite with great cover, several creek bottoms, a high ridge of a single solid rock, and acres of acorns, the adjacent land was being hunted one year by some guys who would turn out their hounds illegally. I had heard the dogs occasionally but had never seen them cross the fence until one morning when the were let out at the fence line and crossed over under my nose as I sat high up on the rock. My partner was in a stand in the middle of the densely wooded property and I heard his 30/06 fire 3 times, and since he is not given to poor shooting habits I knew something was up. I climbed down the 500' high very steep rock ridge and heard him cussing as I came into the clearing where his stand was to see him dragging 3 big dogs behind his truck to the pit where we left all of our game trash for the hogs to clean up. We spoke to the landowner that nite about the dogs and he sez to us "Ya'll keep them Damned dogs off'en my place so I don't have to call the sheriff on my neighbor again...pretty soon he'll get the message when they don't come home and he'll stop that crap". It seems the dogs didn't know the difference between a hog or deer or a cow and was killing anything they could find and our landowner was having a fued with his neighbor over the dogs. It is illegal to hunt deer with dogs in Texas or for much of anything else except hogs, small game, waterfowl, and upland birds...and a landowner or his agent (like us) could destroy any uncontrolled dog that trespassed on someones else's property. We never heard anymore dogs after that but I know they were still being run when we were not there from all the prints and lack of game...but the neighbor got the message.
Ron

Two years ago while on my elk hunt, I shot a nice eating sized cow elk. (I drew a cow tag.)I walked back to the truck to get my wife to give me a hand doing the skinning and quartering. When we got yo where my elk was, there was the gut pile, my torn up elk tag and two asshole thieves racing off as fast as their ATVs would haul them. My biggest bitch it they wer already out of rifle range. Usually, that area crawls with game wardens during elk season, but not a one could be found. Went into town to find a local cop, but none to be found there as well.
Earlier in the season, I spotted a small herd of elk heading into the timber to bed down. As I started my stalk, three more rectal orifaces on ATVs cut me off, chased the elk down and later I found they'd shot two cow elk.
If anybody askes me why I feel ATVs should be outlawed, you have two reason right there.
Slob hunter all.
Paul B.

That goes for a nontrivial percentage of snowmobilers as well.

I hunt a few areas were the roads are gated to rigs over 48 in. wide and we use atv's the same as you would your truck on a logging road. Atvs are great to get from place to place but not to try and hunt from. Every year some guy will ride past my parked atv and down a trail I'm hunting on. I'ts no diffrent then the guys that road hunt.
You have to keep in mind not everyone out there on an atv is a disrestpectfull ass.

Jamie

Paul B,

That would piss me off beyond anything I have yet imagined, them taking my game that is. I have to say for myself as bad as it sounds I would have had a hard time controlling myself.

what kind of people even do that? I can't even imagine.

But try and look at it positive, maybe they went to eat some of it, started laughing about how funny they thought they were, and choked to death on the meat! :-)

Red

To Mr. DLH and the rest of the gentlemen on here:

Of the incident that got the dandruff up on Mr. DLH that happened at our range,,,,,

I DO NOT CONDONE THAT SORT OF ACTION OR THE RESPONSE THAT THE OTHER INDIVIDUAL WHO ACTUALLY DID IT.

The key point is courtesy at a range goes a long way. If people can't be courteous and have a firearm in their hand, then I see no difference in that or going out and driving Drunk. Chances of hurting or even killing someone is too high.

I apologize for forgetting to make this point clear on my previous two posts.

Thank you.

I went to a range here in the Dallas area this weekend. Just put a new scope on a 375 and wanted to get it zeroed, and check the open sites, as well.

While I'm shooting (there were 4-5 open benches on EITHER side of me) a guy comes and starts setting up his stuff right next to me. When he pulls out his A-bolt with a BOSS, I just stood up, smiled, and said, "Sir, could you please tell me before you shoot that gun so I can step back from the firing line?"

He said OK, and we sortof took turns shooting. Anytime he got near that gun, I would get up and walk WAY back from the line. It was obvious it was a brand-new gun, and he probably didn't even know how loud it would be to other people. I think he got the message, though, and in a non-threatening way.

Trapdoor, I wish I could agree with you, all the way. Unfortunately, this is a case where we will all be limited in our freedom by the acts of the minority.

As most hunters, I have seen numerous abuses by ATV riders, including creating salt baits before the season (on a trail closed to ATV's, no less).

In the end, I think the solution, at least on public land, will be along the lines of the new Idaho regulations. They simply continue to allow ATV travel on public land, just not when you are hunting. The Forest Service permits it, but the hunting regulations don't. We have access, but limit the weekend hunting warriors excesses.

In the end, this is nothing different than speed limits. If everyone used their heads, and drove reasonably, there would be no need for speed limits. But, take them away, like in Montana, and a bunch or goofballs will use the road like a racetrack. FWIW, Dutch.

Dutch,

I know what you are saying regarding the minority being the "governing factor" so to speak. However, to lump all into a category established by the minority, is not the solution.

I cannot see how lumping me into a category of slob hunters just because I own and occasionally hunt with a quad serves anyboby's purpose, other than an extremist's. I as an American, who wishes to remain a free man, must do everything that I can to dispell and refute the broadcasting of untruths. To me and surely to most rational people, segregating all under a category is an obvious untruth.

I agree that it is an aweful feeling to be out hunting and an ATV comes screaming by. I have been there, too. But if I for one second thought that I should make it a point, or even subscribe to the theory for just a half of a minute, that outlawing ATV's was the answer, then I would instantly betray myself and my frinds who enjoy the same "freedom" that I do and I would allow another one of my freedoms to disappear. Then I couldn't even ask myself the question "When is this going to stop?" as I just took part in allowing it... I just became my own worst enemy... When really the "enemy" should be the ones who are trying to take away my freedoms.

I am not saying that you have to believe the same things that I do. I am just saying that under the "American way" you should not allow one of my freedoms to fade away, as your freedom will be next....

Note: By using "you," I am not refering directly to anyone in particular. "You" is intended to convey "other than me."

Trapdoor, again, I'd like to agree with you, but I think your analysis does not hold water.

The failure is in the assumption that we are taking away a freedom.

That is not the case. The "freedom" to ride an ATV is conflicting with the "freedom" to enjoy our birthright of enjoying the out-of-doors on public land. It is a conflict of freedoms, not a battle to keep one. Like screaming "fire" in a crowded theater and the freedom of speech; like your neighbor's nose restricts the freedom of movement of your fist.

Lines must be drawn. Simply because we can't run Hummers everywhere, and still keep our public land birth right. So, we have regulations about off-trail travel, road restrictions, hunting restrictions. In other words, restrictions on how many elk you can shoot, or when, are not an infringement of our freedom, they balance one against the other.

If we, that is, we-the public, would be willing to actually enforce the rules (take foto's of offenders), and if the punishment for violation of those rules were draconian enough, I believe we could save ATV travel in the back woods. In our current culture, such penalties (forfeiture of ATV's used illegally, for example), are not acceptable, nor is the vast majority willing to turn violators in.

Since the status quo is not acceptable (too much damage, too much disturbance of non-motorized users), the only alternative is to restrict the ATV's during the periods of the worst abuses, which is during the hunting season.

It would be nice if there were another solution, but again, given our culture at this time, I don't see one. FWIW, Dutch.

Dutch,

I would be interested in carrying this "conversation" on, but maybe it would be better to do it elsewhere. I didn't intend on hijacking this thread, but am interested in hashing it over some more.

Some of the points you have brought up in your posts are interesting...

Do you have a suggestion, or would you prefer to drop it?

Why don't we start a topic on it under Miscellaneous or something, cause I would like to see the discussion and participate.

I unfortunately do think that restrictions of some sort may be necessary, and nobody hates additional laws more than I do.

What I really think is we need a new definition of "Cruel and Unusual". :-)

What about offenders, people that are jerks on their quads, if they do it they have to go to an etiquitte class that they have to pay for themselves. Their alternative is forfeiture of the vehicle. And in cases where they steal somebody's elk, that is same as any type of crime, if they were driving a car it would get inpounded, take the quad, make restitution to the person by paying for their fees for that hunt (gas, lodging, ammo, tags and license, everything).

If things were handled in a way that made it bad enough for people they would stop doing them.

Look in Miscellaneous, I'm going there now.

Red