I got the chance to shoot a few animals w/ NBTs during the past few days and thought I post the results although they aren't too surprising to me.

I decided to go for bone on these animals since so many doubt their effectiveness. I usually just go for the broad side double lung hit and they do the same ole' boring in and out w/ blood every where on the animals that did actually run.

#1- 200 lb 10pt at 160 yards broad side (150 grn .284 @ 3115 fps). I placed it in the high shoulder, it busted through the shoulder blade, through ribs, took out a large section of the bottom of the spine, through opposite ribs, into the shoulder and stopped before exiting. Jacket and a few pieces of lead were recovered.

#2- I let my Buddy Tom borrow my wife's 270 loaded w/ 130 NBTs at 2940-2950 fps MV for this hunt. We rattled a bruiser 200 lb 9pt buck (Would have been a 11 or 12 if he hadn't broken several points off fighting) up to 60 yards and he stopped at a slight quater about 30 feet below us in elev. Tom placed the bullet right under the white patch on the throat, the bullet detroyed a long section of the deers spine entered the chest cavity exited ribs and was against the hide behind the off side shoulder (I'm talking a well over a foot of dense muscle and bone).

#3- .257 115 NBT (Haven't chronoed but would expect it to be around 3100) 175lb 8pt buck broad side at 75 yards I squared him on the point of the shoulder busting through shoulder bone, ribs, inners, ribs, opp. shoulder and exited w/ about a nickle sized hole.

#1-#3 all dropped on the spot

#4- +- 140 lb doe at 120 yards w/ same .257 115 NBT load, slight quater away. Lined up to impact opp shoulder on exit, went in through ribs, inners, ribs, shoulder bone, and left a quarter sized exit. she manage to make it about 80 yards w/ pretty good blood.

This isn't intended to start a debate it's just fresh on my mind after a few hunts in the last week and 1/2. Same good ole' performance they been giving me in the past but, I had never heard of any so called bad performance from them until reading it on the net. Thought I'd just pass along a few positives on them. I do believe I'll go back to my behind the shoulder hits from now on (save that 1/2lb of burger .

Your description of the terminal performance of Ballistic Tips sounds plausible and consistent with my own observations. On the other hand, I think you over estimate the weight of the deer involved by about 25%. But, hey, that's pretty conservative for a hunter!

there is no substitute for great shot placement which you obviously did, in this case, the shoulder. Any idea as to the retained weight of the bullets? jorge

Thanks for the report...always good to get other peoples results.

Great info, I, like you will continue to shoot behind the sholder. Deer burgers are good!!! and yes Louisiana has some big deer, 200 lb bucks are not at all uncommon. bill439

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
I think you over estimate the weight of the deer involved by about 25%.

Maybe, maybe not. When it comes to the south, Louisiana and Mississippi do have some large bodied deer. It is possible to have overestimated, and YES, hunters and FISHERMAN, do tend to embelish a wee bit. But 200 pound bucks in LA and a 140 Doe are more common than you'd think.

I'm not surprised about the Btip performance. My brother has a friend in SC that has been using his (my brother's) 300 SAUM, unbeknownst to me, shooting btips at several deer in the last few weeks...Btips that I loaded. They've been slaughtering them quite frankly. All the reports/emails I've been getting show a pile of dead critters.

Sounds like my results so far this year. 200 yards, quartering to me severely, I shot to the left of the white patch. It mulched the lungs and heart. Never exited. The 7 pt was 123# field dressed and never took a step.

6.5-06AI 120NBT 3000 fps.

quote:

On the other hand, I think you over estimate the weight of the deer involved by about 25%. But, hey, that's pretty conservative for a hunter!

Not at all but, I see exactly where you are coming from. Believe me I know alot of those fellas that kill those 160 lb bucks and say "Man! He was over 200 Pounds, A Monster!"

I've put more than enough on the scales to get a pretty good idea on field weighing them. Those two Panhandle Bucks were taken on Alfalfa and wheat fields as well as supplemental feeds. We didn't have a scale at this facility but, one of the guides had a deer girth measuring tape which I don't place too much faith in to be honest, it says they'd weigh over 200 but, that's alittle much for the two bucks we tagged they were in rut w/ swollen necks and about a 1/2" or so of fat under there hide. They were almost solid white w/ a layer of fat when we pulled the hide off.

On the La. deer I feel I was pretty close I've gotten to where I don't hardly put the scale on them unless they are just abnormally big. We have so much of a difference here in our deer's nutrition that it greatly effects their weight. In one place we hunt over in the Miss River Delta, the Bucks can get very large from feeding on the crops grown in the rich soil, 250 pounds on the hoof is not uncommon at all. On the other hand our iron ore, red dirt, piney hills deer don't get very big at all. A mature buck in our Piney woods will go from 160-180 most of the time and does from 100-150.

I'll say this about those Panhandle and Oklahoma Bucks (The 10pt and 9pt), they were a great deal bigger than the East and South Texas Bucks I've seen.

The biggest Whitetail I've had a chance to poke a NBT into was 240 and field dressed at 192 (One of those Delta deer).

Ya'll have a good one. I'm fixin' to head out for a few more days tomm. evening and next week off to Iowa.

Reloader

quote:

there is no substitute for great shot placement which you obviously did, in this case, the shoulder. Any idea as to the retained weight of the bullets? jorge

No Jorge, I didn't weigh them but, the two that were recovered probably didn't retain a whole lot They appeared to have most of the Jacket and the Solid Base intact and had a small chunk of lead along w/ some smaller pieces of lead close by where they stopped. Not High weight retaining premiums but, all you really need on these medium game animals.

I'm anxious to recover an Accubond but, on the few animals we've shot w/ them this year they've passed through.

Have a Good One

Reloader

Hey Reloader, Congratulations on a FINE Hunt.

Sounds similar to the performance I've had with B-Tips over the years - all 1-shot kills.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Your description of the terminal performance of Ballistic Tips sounds plausible and consistent with my own observations. On the other hand, I think you over estimate the weight of the deer involved by about 25%. But, hey, that's pretty conservative for a hunter!

I thought everything was bigger in texas!

Here is a picture of a NBT that I recovered from a deer shot through the front shoulder as he was quartering toward me. I recovered only the jacket (below) as the lead core exited. The jacket was right beneath the skin on the opposite side. The bullet was a 140 grn from a 270 win at 2900 fps. The recovered jacket weighed in at 53 grns.

Yeah, that's a great picture, of a mediocre bullet. jorge

Reloader, well done! This mirrors what I have been seeing for years... great performance and good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Yeah, that's a great picture, of a mediocre bullet. jorge

I have the same sentiments. I have virtually the same remains (jacket, no core) from a yearling I shot years ago with a .270 130gr BT through the ribs. I keep it as a reminder not to use them.

But the deer died right? Hmmmm....

Everyone has their own idea ofwhat a bullet should look like after it does it's job. I happily used Sierra bullets for years and got a wide variety of appearances from the few bullets recovered but have to say they are deadly bullets. Why is a bullets fragmenting so bad? As long as it penetrates deeply enough fragmnenting surely adds to lethality. I just don't believe retained weight is the end all measure of bullet performance.

gorje: I see you are still advocating using your inferior shoulder shots on Deer!
You are laughably stupid my man!
If you or anyone else has time to aim at the shoulders of Deer sized game then you and anyone else has time to aim for the more lethal and more humane heart/lungs area! Or if the shot is from a frontal angle then break the neck and you will AGAIN save from stupidly wasting the fine shoulder meat of Deer sized game!
Your snide, unfounded and erroneous depiction of the fine Nosler Ballistic Tip in 270 caliber as being "mediocre" just goes to further prove your ineptness and lack of experience and inability to analyze evidence!
Let me relay to you EXACTLY what a conscientious sportsman can do with the fine Nosler Ballistic Tips and proper shot placement! Over the last four full years of using my newish Remington 700 Sendero in caliber 270 Winchester WITH the wonderful game bullet - the 130 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip I have killed 12 head of Big Game with 12 shots! I of course aimed for the heart/lungs area on all of these animals (less two of them - one was a head shot and the other a head on shot to the heart/lungs!) carefully avoiding the shoulders of said game animals!
"Mediocre bullet, my foot you dim bulb!
I am literally laughing out loud as I write and post this denunciation of you and your errors and lack of sporting ethic!
Sporting ethic you say! Yeah, if you had shot those twelve head of game that I have successfully harvested, with your laughably stupid philosophy of "shooting them in the shoulder" at all costs, you would have wasted in my experienced estimation at least 240 pounds of wonderful game meat! AT LEAST 240 POUNDS! 20 pounds of blood shoot and unsalvageable shoulder meat per animal! Despicable waster you are gorge!
How do you defend that fact gorge?
Let alone the fact that when you aim at the shoulders of medium sized Big Game you run the risk of bullets not penetrating (angling or glancing off!) and the animal running off wounded! In that case your wasted game meat total would just about DOUBLE! Yeah that would be real ethical gorge - if just one animal is hit a glancing non-lethal blow with your ill conceieved shoulder shot then your total is more than 300 pounds of wasted meat! I, in all of my twelve kills, am betting not 18 pounds of edible meat was wasted! Not counting the flesh of these animals hearts which in all but one case were destroyed by my shot!
Keep showing your ass gorge and I will keep pointing out that there is a better (less edible meat wasted), more humane (quicker kills) and better (heart/lung shot game bleeds out the edible flesh to a much greater extent) than with YOUR slower dying, wasteful shoulder shooting!
You are a pathetic excuse for a sportsman gorge!
You should know better than to try and pass off your drivel amongst people who know better!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

blackhawk1: If I am reading your unfounded and misguided posting correctly - you retrieved the jacket from the head of game YOU OBVIOUSLY KILLED AND RETRIEVED, but not the core of the bullet?
Sheesh... to the max!
I am shaking my head at the self effacing stupidity that so many people espouse in public and then PERHAPS they expect other folks not to laugh at them?
The critter was shot by you and you killed it and the bullet is supposed to do WHAT ELSE?
Perhaps you should read my latest posting regarding the wonderful 270 caliber 130 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips and the game I have cleanly and humanely harvested while using the VERY bullet you are trying to decry!
Sheesh... again!
I simply think your complaining without CAUSE - AND - complaining based on your own evidence that refutes your own contention!
Sheesh...!
You killed the creature! You cleaned it and found part of the bullet that killed the animal!
You are overlooking something that is very glaringly obvious to others!
Sheesh!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Stoked_C & Rickt300: You both are exactly right!
AND, you both have a grasp of reality and of the obvious, that I am surprised, at least two folks on this thread can't realize!
Bully for you both!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

When I first started to load for my .308, I came here to pick up a few pointers. The first thing I noticed was that there was a lot of people saying "Bullet failure for bullet ****".
At the time I was using a Hornady BTSP. There were a few who told me that that bullet was "not enough for deer" and that it would "fail".

So with much trepidation I loaded it up, and took my first deer.

This year I again used a famed "failure prone" bullet, a 150 gr SST. Worked like a charm. Two one shot kills right into the vitals. The deer dropped with in ten yards and didn't yell "bullet failure" before ploughing in.

Funny thing is, there was a few hunters that we met durning lunch that had shot a buck with some premium bullets. The bullet (I think it was a NPT, but I am not sure) had penciled in and out. They had a long track and a finish shot to get that deer.

Which bullets failed? The SST or the premium? Niether really. The difference is placement. The NPT was a high shot that didn't hit any vitals or any major muscle groups. My shots took out the heart.

A balistic tip works fine for deer, as would a premium bullet. It mostly depends on where the guy behind the trigger puts it.

blackhawk1: Maybe you missed my posting regarding the 5 1/2 year old Mule Deer I shot on the 11th of November, 2,005.
I shot said Mule Deer with ONE shot from my 270 Winchester using the wonderful Nosler 130 gr. Ballistic Tip! The very large bodied Mule Deer was shot and killed IN ITS TRACKS with this one shot from 140 Yards!
The recovered bullet I have in my possession right now - as I posted about two weeks ago, the recovered bullet now weighs 61 grains and expanded to .688" across!!!
Yeah some of the bullet is missing! My trophy is not! I am eating its flesh every coupla days and the taxidermist is making a wall mounting using its horns and cape!
It died!
In its tracks!
Due to that wonderful Nosler bullet imparting ALL its energy inside the animal, expanding to .688" at some point in its travels and maybe even due to the fact that some of the bullet went somewhere else inside that creatures body where it was not retrieved by me!
In other words an accurate and lethal bullet (and the 130 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips in 27 caliber ARE accurate and lethal - see my other postings regarding this bullet - do a search!) does not have to retain A SPECIFIC part or percentage of itself to kill game animals quickly and humanely!
Say the other 69 grains of my Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet somehow had nothing to do with the killing of my Mule Deer - lets pretend it "evaporated" on the way to its intended target!
The Deer was still killed in its tracks!
It bled out internally to a pleasing extent - this makes the flesh taste better by the way!
And I recovered the creature!
Well then bless the Nosler folks for making a bullet that arrives inside game weighing 61 grains and kills a 250 pounds plus animal in its tracks!
But I have a strong suspicion that all the game I have recently killed with these wonderful bullets were not killed quickly by 61 grain bullets but by bullets that imparted their energy completely inside the game and the bullets in the process of expanding and destroying flesh and organs lost some of their weight by fragmenting or seperating or what ever you want to call it - I don't care!
I consider the Nosler Ballistic Tips to be wonderful, or "sensational" bullets for medium sized Big Game and they perform wonderfully both accuracy and lethality wise!
In any case they are far superior to being described as mediocre or as you put it "not to be used"!
Sheesh... !
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG: You continue to be a top contender for the moron of the year award here on AR. This place is replete with PMs that LAUGH AT YOU. Do you also push on doors that say pull? Your statement about bullets glancing off deer shoulders--even an NBT-- is indicative of the total lack of comprehension you posess in this field. Further, We can also apparently add a total lack of reading comprehension to your long list of underachievements. I've never said that an NBT was not good enough for deer. Hell it's good enough for just about anything except that one has to be more careful with shot placement at closer ranges with muzzle velocities in excess of say, 2700 fps. In that case a H/L shot is definetly more advisable with one of your NBTs. Can you understand that simple statement?

As far as your obsessive-compulsive and dogmatic stand that shoulder shots are ineffective, that one keeps you in contention for the "shallow end of the gene pool" title. We've recanted this issue many times here but apparently your comprehension skills match your hunting acumen. In many places where the brush is thick, and deer are mostly nocturnal, a H/L shot does not ususal anchor the animal and even a 20 yard run could spell the difference between instant recovery that evening or having to wait untilthe next day and the coyotes. Sure it wastes more meat, but that's just not that important to me. I've donated more venison, time and money to the needy than you could ever imagine. I am a trophy hunter and I hunt because I love it period. And PLEASE, sepll my name right (unless it's another sophomoric attempt on your part to disparage my name) and stop using the exclamation point for every frigging sentence. Go swim a little deeper, the water there is a bit more oxygenated. jorge

I, like many others, have had great success with one-shot kills using NBTs on many big-game animals of all sizes from Coues deer to very large bull elk. I use heavier versions for the larger game, for example, I like 180 gr. NBTs or larger for elk (some especially like the 200 gr. .338 NBT for elk, exclaming "the best ever bullet for killing elk"). When these animals are hit in vital areas, the NBTs drop them in their tracks.

Since my goal is to kill game quickly and humanely, I don't worry much about how the bullets look after they've done their job. But, some folks posting here seem to put more emphasis on how the bullets look afterward than how effective they were at killing the game. I don't understand this - its seems essentially irrelevant what the bullet looks like, since I don't plan to reload it again.

gorge: You calling me stupid is the epitome of self indulgence and radical reality reform!
Not flying gorge!
I keep pointing out your ineptness and ill contrived policies and you keep failing to make any case for yourself!
Let me tear apart piece by piece your latest batch of tripe (posting) that you have based on inexperience and unfounded folk lore!
First off AGAIN I correct your "lie" (theres no other way to describe what you are doing now!) that I said a shoulder shot was "in-effective"! It does several things effectively! It kills fine medium sized game animals SLOWER than a heart/lung shot! It effectively has a higher chance of wounding a fine head of medium game when on those occassions the misguided and ill considered bullet glances off the shoulder or fails to penetrate it! Those animals so struck then "effectively" run off and sometimes are not retrieved by the Hunter! Coyote bait these! Denying this happens gorge simply draws more defamation onto your silly self!
So be it!
More now on your "effective" shoulder shot! Your ill thought out shoulder shot spreads bloodshot throughout the chest area VERY EFFECTIVELY! Try and deny that gorge! Your "effective" shoulder shot also ruins much fine edible meat - without reservation!
In your latest post YOU ADMIT THIS! That is "effective groge!
Who is the moron gorge?
And no I will not spell someones name "correctly" whom I have no respect for! Wasteful and unethical Hunters get NO respect from me!
Does YOUR self proclaimed "trophy hunter" status somehow give YOU license to waste large amounts of edible game meat gorge!
No, it does not, GORGE!
You have back tracked all over this issue since I began (some time back) holding you to account on your wasteful and misguided and just plain stupid contentions regarding shoulder shooting Deer, Antelope and such! You back tracked when I corrected you when you stated that you could shoot a Deer through both shoulders and still take out the heart AND the lungs! More of your nexperience showing here. Then you tried to switch your argument and contentions to it was not possible to shoot a Deer/Antelope through the heart/lung area without shooting through the shoulders! I of course corrected that blather by relaying that I have done it literally hundreds of times on medium size Big Game like Mt. Goat, Mule Deer, Whitetailed Deer, Black Bear, Antelope, Blacktailed Deer and etc!
So back track if you will - I contend I have corrected you (yeah me the moron correcting you the expert trophy hunter!) and you have not been able to prove me wrong!
Call names if you wish but don't dish it out gorge if YOU can't take it!
You are simply inexpereinced and below the intelligence level that it takes to make seasoned and fact based decisions!
So bet that also!
That is your short coming not mine!
You have also backed down off your recent bit of "wisdom" that Nosler bullets are only mediocre (thus somehow lacking in some unstated way - He-he caught you again gorge!).
Are you saying bullets NEVER Glance off of shoulders or fail to penetrate shoulders or only penetrate one shoulder and thus allow the game to trundle away on three legs? Even a simpleton like yourself should realize when you have made a glaring foot in mouth statement like that one!
I want a specific answer to that one gorge! Have you never seen a game animal hobbling off on three legs?
Again your ability to deny reality and make up things makes me laugh and yet it puzzles me!
Yeah bullets do on occassion glance off and fail to penetrate one or both shoulders! On those occassions your type misguidance results in either lost game, lingering or slower death, slow retrieval, much blood shot meat, adrenaline soaked flesh (which diminishes the quality of the meat - if it finally gets retrieved!) and less edible meat for you to give away! And most usually a combination of these factors result when the shoulder shots "fail"!
I have never shot a game animal in the heart/lungs and failed to retrieve it! Once retrieved, remember this gorge, the Hunter will reap all the aforementioned benefits from placing the shot in the right place to begin with! Has your brain been able to concieve of those things as yet gorge?
If, gorge, you can not follow the blood trail of a head of medium size Big Game that has been heart/lung shot, for "twenty yards" like in your illustartion then you gorge, have NO BUSINESS in the game fields to begin with!
Even a modestly experienced Hunter porperly equipped should have no trouble following the blood trail of a heart/lung shot head of game for "20 yards"! Sheesh! Please go back and read my post regarding heart/lung shot large Mule Deer dying in its tracks on 11/11/2,005!
Your poor judgement and lack of experience cries out for guidance and correction! You gorge are unfortunately to dumb and/or to bull headed to recognize you are wrong. And you are to misguided to accept that there obviously is a better way of doing things than you blindly pursue and adhere to!
Lets get your latest hair ball of a posting straight gorge, you still proclaim shooting the shoulders of Deer and Antelope is the best way to harvest them?
Despite the wasted meat!
Despite the slower death!
Despite the increased chance of loss of game!Despite the poorer quality of the meat if retrieved!
Despite the fact there is a better area to aim ones bullets into, that is more deadly and saves more of the wonderful game meat for human consumption!
More dim and unclear blather from your latest posting groge, needs to be inquired about to clear up! Are you saying the wonderful Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets are not capable of humanely harvesting Deer/Antelope and such when said bullets are travelling at different speeds and at different ranges???
I have killed Big Game from 50 yards to at and just over 400 yards (several Antelope and a couple of Deer at this longer range!) with the wonderful Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets!
Wanna know how gorge?
I placed the bullets in the heart/lung area and killed them humanely and very quickly! I wasted virtually NO game meat using this method!
Those Nosler Ballistic Tips were travelling at a variety of speeds and obviously distances and they all performed wonderfully!
gorge your ass is showing again!
Don't say things just to be saying them! Have experience or fact to back up your "contentions" or don't make them!
gorge please, make it CLEAR, after considering postings and testimonials from those with more and ACTUAL experience with them, how the Nosler Ballistic Tips fail to make top billing for use on Deer/Antelope sized game!
You contend they fail at some speeds and on some occassions and only rate "moderate" in quality! Please define precisely these "perameters" of the Nosler Ballistic Tips "effectiveness"!
Prove it in other words!
I have proven you wrong on several fronts and on many points and showed how you can do things better and more ethically AND easier - but you blindly hang onto your self inflicted shortcomings!
Thats your problem gorge!
If anyone has a problem with anything I post on this board then they should in a "manly manner" post their opposition or proof to the contrary! Thats what a man would do gorge!
If your alleged circle of "little old ladies" doesn't have the balls to defend their views in public then I say, they deserve YOU gorge! However your monicker is spelled gorge you have done more to "disparage" yourself by your postings than I need or want to do!
I am correcting your ill concieved behavior in public more on the hope that others will not be unduly influenced by your drivel than in any hope of correcting your poorly thought out and wasteful ways! You are quite obviously not smart enough to know right from wrong, in certain instances.
Thats your problem gorge!
Long live the wonderful and accurate Nosler Ballistic Tips!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Ackley Improved User: Amen to your posting! I concur 100%.
Long live the wonderful Nosler Ballistic Tips!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Dementia is obviosuly setting in at an accelerated pace. jorge

VG, I have no dog in this fight, but I would like to offer a few observations:

My father, who is now a 77 year-old man (who can no longer hunt due to failed eyesight) shot deer through the front shoulders all his life. He knew it was the simplest way to make sure the deer was recovered. I cannot tell you how many hundreds of pounds of venison I saw brought to our home during my growing up years. Once I got old enough to hunt with him, I chastised him for shooting where the "sausage meat was", but it didn't change a thing. He lost a total of one deer in over 50 years of hunting, even when I was stupid enough to handload his 7.65 Mauser with Sierras, the most prone to fragmentation bullet I have ever seen (prior to the invention of the NBT). (I got smarter, and went with Hornadys in his later years...) The one loss was from a Sierra. That loss is the reason I won't hunt with them, either...

The actual loss of meat was a moot point. There was always enough left for plenty of sausage/burger meat, and I did the trimming as I got older.

Secondly, years ago I shot a feral hog with a NBT during a Texas Hill Country hunt. The pig was running, at a distance of ~40 yards, and the 150-grain BT penciled through the pig's head, completely failing to open up. The second bullet was a Hornady SP, and the pig tumbled at the shot... The entrance holes were less than an inch apart. Go figure...

I later shot a doe that same afternoon, and the explosive performance on the little 90# whitetail was enough to ensure I never shot another NBT. As the late Finn AAgaard stated once, "the NBT's terminal performance is just too violent for me." For me, the bullet's tendency for complete fragmentation without off-side penetration, as well as unpredictable performance (like on the pig), are the best reasons not to use it. I like an animal to tell me where it went. And a heart-shot or lung shot deer will USUALLY run. Nothing is absolute, but facts are facts.

Lastly, this past weekend I was fortunate enough to hunt West Texas, and I helped a man skin a big-bodied management buck that was shot with NBTs out of a .243 BAR. His daughter was the initial shooter.
The deer had been shot three times, only because he was so full of rut that he didn't know the first shot was fatal. The first bullet, which hit solidly behind the shoulder and blew up, fragmented, blew up both lungs, but left with a very small exit hole, and no blood. The deer walked about 30 yards and stopped. The young lady's second shot, because she was excited, took out the right front leg at the first joint. The father then took the rifle and shot the deer in the neck, thinking the first shot was a miss. Later, back at camp, he lamented shooting his daughter's "dead" deer. I can argue that the .243 is too small for deer, which I believe, but I have to think that a better bullet would have done a better job. Maybe not... Even so, the complete demolition of the lungs didn't "drop this deer in his tracks", as your experiences have seen. Why? I am not smart enough to know.

And to continue to deliberately misspell a man's name is irresponsible, difference of opinion or not. You wouldn't appreciate it, either...

took my whitetail 7mm rem mag 150gr bal tip neck shot (only shot i had)lots of lead frag inside wound channel mostly after bullet hit the spine deer is at the taxidermist, after seeing that i would use a ballitic tip on bear or elk only as a last resort.

Two (of many) very good posts gentlemen, but surely you don't expect VG to let facts get in the way of his views. jorge

reloader-sounds to me like you had some good hunts.

On the subject of BT's, I've been around a truck load or two of critters shot with them over the years.

I've seen them used for deer/lopes/black bruins/elk and maybe one or two more tht I canny not remember.

IME they are very effective and they happen to be very accurate.

Is it the bullet I would shoot a bull in ther rump with. Nope, but then again that is not me and my way with any cal or bullet.

I've no worries about the bullet that it will do the job when called upon. Regardless of range/critter and most all angles.

Mark D

I have shot many deer with a lot of different bullets, even a few with ballistic tips and have come to the conclusion that if you are expecting a magic bullet that is all things to everyone you are not going to find it. On the other hand I have found fast openers the quickest killing deer bullets and exit holes are not as important as a lot of people seem to think nor do they gaurantee a blood trail. A truly good performing bullet on deer is the Remington 80 grain PSP out of a 243 or 6MM Remington. Good chest hits mean a downed deer, just avoid the shoulders not because the bullet won't penetrate them but to reduce the damage to meat. Neck hits in front of the shoulder blade mean instant drops. I have had deer go farther with exit holes than not but I have recovered every deer I have hit solidly with a broad range of bullets and cartridges and this pithy argument of my bullet performance thoughts are better than yours really waste band width.

rick300, I agree with you. A well placed modern bullet will kill. A poorly placed bullet - no matter the design - will only wound the animal, and you'll get to see it run off.