Scouting some potential hunting land in what is now the DC suburbs ... a county with lots of deer where rifle hunting is still legal.

But few properties are more than 200 acres or so. Any property that big is likely to be surrounded by smaller ones or subdivisions.

I want to help reduce the deer overpopulation while curbing noise pollution ... what a nice guy!

So, are there any tests out there that quantify how loud various cartridges are? Perhaps some kind of formula based on bore diameter, powder charge, that kind of thing? E.g. the "booooom" of a .50 cal. muzzleloader being less than the "BAP!" of a .300 Weatherby?

John

I believe you would find the 6.5X55 to be sufficiently quiet for the job.

That's a plumb interesting question.

The less powder you burn and the longer barrel you use, the less noise you make. Hunt from a tree stand. and accept that your max range is 50-75 yards, and you should do fine with a carbine in a pistol cartridge. I sometimes shoot .38 sp out of a H&R in .357 Max. Keep the bullet down around 1000 fps and you won't scare folks 100 yards off. You can do the same with what you have handy.

Something else to remember is that it's the second shot that folks hear. Unless it;s a real booner, all the first shot does is get folks listening.

If you are really serious about this, hunt around for a H&R .45-70 w/ a 28" inch barrel. Find the lightest load that will get a 400 grain bullet moving at 1000 fps and you are in business.

Get yourself a good 22 Hornet or better yet K-Hornet and load her with 45 grain Barnes XBTs.Shoot them dead center in the shoulder and they'll drop on the spot.Very little noise.

Consider the 300 Whisper. Developed by JD Jones,and used by our military when a quiet shot is desirable !!!-memtb

I believe your best choice is the 250-3000 cartridge. Not much a fan of the .224 diameter bullet for deer. Just the right size for the ranges you will be shooting, very mild recoil and noise report. If you were going to use a rifle chambered for a .224 diameter bullet I would consider the 223 cartrigde since you can use heavier weight bullets with the fast twist bore they have.

I agree with the statement that the less powder and the longer barrel you use, the better off you are.

There is a third factor that is important, however, and that is muzzle pressure. The SLOWER the powder, the higher the muzzle pressure, the louder the report.

Use a heavy projectile with a fast burning powder in a long barrel, and you are a long ways towards your goal.

The first thing I would do is try some of the SR 4759 reduced loads in the Speer manual or the Hodgdon youth loads (H4895) on their website. They should give all the velocity you need in a gun you already have. Other than that, the Whisper series is a good suggestion, but most of those are designed to function sub-sonic. JMO, Dutch.

THE LOAD per C.E. Harris

Harris wrote an article years back, mostly for shooters of odd cartridges, in which he pointed out that 13.0 grains of Red Dot under the normal for caliber bullet weight is a safe load in any cartridge from about .250-3000 to 45-70 in case capacity. This load gives roughly 1200 to 1400 fps and works with both cast and jacketed bullets.

I have used it in a bunch of stuff between 7mm and 8mm. Also with cast bullets in a .45-70. That's the no development load for bottlenecked cartridges. Red Dot bulks up well which eliminates the charge shifting problem.

Still, for this particular problem, I would incline towards a pistol cartridge in a rifle length barrel and I would go with the powder that used the lightest charge weight to get the desired velocity. (Which is another way of saying what Dutch said.)

The reason for this is plumb simple. Quiet loads mean low velocity and pistol bullets expand a lot easier than rifle bullets. Now, if a .35 Rem., .358 Win., or .35 Whelen was on hand, you could sure use the 13 grains of Red Dot under something like the Speer 160 grain and go hunting.

I sure wanna hear how this all works out, btw.

Ironic how the Brits, who have all sorts of irrationally restrictive gun laws, regard suppressed rifles as "civilized" and are encouraged for hunting, while we Yanks, in a classic fit of knee-jerk legislating back in 1938 put suppressors ("silencers") in the category of equipment useful only to evil-doers.

Since you can't use a suppressor, the advice on long barrel, relatively small volume of fast powder, and sub-sonic bullet is a good one. Any pistol bullet at 1100 fps with the range held to 50 yards or so should be sufficient for deer, as is the Hornet if you limit it to neck-head shots.

What has this forum come to? Now we want to shoot rifles that don't make noise, C'mon gemme a break...Any rifle capable of killing a deer cleanly makes a lot of noise. Get a life or take up golf, not a bad game at all.

You ever thought about archery?

You know... when a person starts looking for QUIET rifle for deer I immediately start thinking of poaching??? I was dissapointed to see on another thread how LOUD the 25-06 was/is... who cares, and why should that be a factor in buying a rifle cartridge? If noise is a concern to others and you are legaly hunting than they are probably to close to your muzzle and should find somewhere else to enjoy nature. You can measure sound in db(s) however, they scale is not only logrithmic, but also, as sound increases its much harder to discern which is louder. Also various conditions and cartridges will filter sound waves, which will ultimatly be the biggest factors in hearing the sound a a distance.
just some thoughts
smallfry

Atkinson & friends,

The fellow who asked the original question is from the greater DC area. Folks in that region, if you have been following the news, freak when they hear a rifle shot. There is a huge deer population since deer love suburbia almost as much as yuppies do.

There are still counties in which hunting deer with rifles is legal. For it to stay legal, we try not to disturb folks who do not hunt.

The average distance for deer kills in Virginia stays right around 30 yards. In my first post I stipulated hunting from a tree stand. That gives you close shots and puts your bullets into the ground.

Now, great grandaddy killed a pile of deer shooting stuff like the .32-40, .38-55, .44-40, and .38-40. Handgun hunters still kill deer with .357, .45 ACP, .45 LC and the like. All of those put meat on the ground right now with chest shots at moderate ranges.

I would not suggest such rounds or their equivalents for the wide open spaces or where running shots are taken. Out of a tree stand in a moderate sized patch of woods in a populated area, they do just fine.

I agree with Leftoverdj about 98%. The other two go for the minimum legal caliber for a muzzle loader with round balls. I'd even go out on a limb and say "flintlock". A .40 cal. with a modest charge of fffg will do the trick and the are not terribly loud. As somebody posted above, light & quick burning powder charge, long barrel. Beyond that, any pistol cartridge would work but forget the magnums.

Migh also add that CE Harris is correct about the quiet load thing. I use one in my .44 Carbine with a 300gr paper patched pure lead bullet. 7.5 gr of SR4759 moves it at about 900 fps. Quiet, lethal and quite accurate out to 50 yds. No more pop than a .45ACP.

[ 11-19-2002, 04:03: Message edited by: DigitalDan ]

if archery is not a option then i would use a muzzel load since a the low boom of a muzzle loader dosnt carry as far as the loud crack of a center fire

but for the deers sake plz stay with a 50 cal or larger unless using a conical and even there dont go under 45 cal.

i think youll do good with a tradional side lock like tc hawken or a inline of your choise but get a good 1 dont go cheap sice it will only frustrate you if you cant get it to shoot you get a tc inline and your amost garenteed itll shoot

i have a omega and it shoots moa at 100 yards 4 shot groups all day.

Come on guys, the man just doesn't want to upset the gun-shy, anti-hunters and whatnot in the nearby subdivision. He can get a T/C contender carbine with a .300 whisper, 7mm TCU or 6.5mm TCU barrel and have his bullets doing about 2000 to 2100 ft/sec for shots to 200 yards. OR, get a regular deer-caliber rifle and load it way down. The neighbors will still hear them but a full power .270 will scare alot of folks.

A .44Mag levergun with 24" bbl pushing a 300gr bullet with a fairly fast powder like unique to 1000-1100 fps should be quiet/effective.

How about a 45-70 shooting 400gr over 15gr unique.

Learn your trajectory, get a little laser maybe, and go to work.

MM

I put together some .338WinMag loads of 16gr GreenDot and 250gr roundnoses. 1830fps, 2" at 100 yards. Not much noise at all.

MM

well, I could lend you my braked 358 norma, when ever you shoot it the neighbors would just think that the military is simulating D-day.

How about a cross bow ? That would be quiet and it's like shooting a rifle only with the range of a bow.

When the quite one comes home from deer hunting back East, does he put his foot in the toilet and pee down his leg so he won't wake his wife up, just curious!

Just an attempt as humor for what its worth...

Ray,

In Texas after deer hunting for a few days when I come home late at night I skid into the driveway, slam the pick up doors a few times, drop my gear in the hallway, turn on all the lights, piss right in the middle of the commode and break wind, then I yank the covers back on the bed and holler "does anyone around here want some wild sex?"..............my wife never does wake up.

Craftsman,
I don't blame her!!

We refer to such claims as "town talk" around here, only spewed within the confines of our coffee shop! never at home.

GeorgeS

That would happen only in Oklahoma! Or maybe East Texas!

I shoot deer in the "suburbs" North of DC, quiet is definately a plus. With all the folks moving to the suburbs go get away from the city violence (perceived or real?) any shots usually draw undersired attention (police, irate parents, horse owners, dog owners, people with sensitive house plant, etc, etc), it's far better to be quiet. Archery sometimes isn't an option, the deer have the option to run into traffic on crowded roads, run into subdivisions and die in homeowner's manicured yards (never a good scene).

Supressors are legal in VA I believe, I don't know if they're legal for hunting there though you'd need to check. Quietest rifle I've heard fired was a Ruger 44Mag bolt action rifle with a suppressor, the rounds were loaded to subsonic, all that's heard is the firing pin let go and then the impact of the round (this can be quite load depending on the substance it hits).

As MM states, a large/heavy bullet, low velocity (I'd stay subsonic) will be quiet, add a suppressor and all noise goes away (except the "bloop", "thump", "crack" or "zinggg" on impact).

I doubt this is legal in Va, but if you want quiet on the cheap, use a .22 LR out of a reasonably long barreled rifle and shoot them in the brain. Dead deer, right there. The Hornet is a big step up, and gives you easy 100 yard brain shot accuracy and killing ability, with fairly minimal noise.

I agree with Dave King, I've used a .300 Whisper in a suppressed Ruger and it was very quiet with 220 Sierra MKs and shot about 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards on top of that. Shot a few times with a suppressed TC .44mag and it was quiet, but not as quiet as the Whisper to my ears. However, no one that didn't know what you were doing would even look up, if they were more than 50 yards away or dead if they were the enemy(just kidding, but that is what the Whisper was designed for).

Leftoverdj:

Illegal is one thing, and I am not recommending that anyone break the law, but to say that it is immoral is something else. Done properly a good hunter can and will kill more predation deer with a .22 than you have ever considered shooting.

When the animal is stone cold dead with one shot, please point out the immorality to me.

I'll take a good hunter with a .22 over 95% of your average gun hunters and 99.9% of the bow hunters and bet that he will wound less and kill more. Contrary to your apparent belief, deer are extremely easy to kill with the right shot. BTW, I don't hunt deer with a .22, but know a couple of people that have killed literally hundreds of them with one and have killed a few that way myself long ago and far away.

"Morality" and .22's......
I know for a fact that SGB'ed flatnosed .22 LR work well for head shots under 50 yds., IF the shooter can hold hard.
60 gr. Aguila works even better.

When you start contemplating how "moral" certain actions are, consider that there are more and more depressed areas where mines and mills have shut down and logging is no longer viable due to tree-huggers and ranching don't work nomore because of drought and the nanny state believeing IT "owns" the water, plus cheap imported Argentine beef.
Consider whether it is "moral" to beg for crumbs from the various gov.t depts. to try to keep the wrinkles out of you and your family's bellies, or to take your lowly, ubiquitous .22LR and do something about it.

As to quiet loads, std. vel .22, or larger bores and heavier bullets loaded sub-sonic, even out of short rifle barrels are mighty quiet, "considering".
You definately DON'T need the newest, shiniest, "short-fat-magnumb" to make meat.
Consider the "punkin rollers" that were used not all that long ago to nearly eradicate the N.A. deer population. 3/8ths inch or bigger, 200 gr. and up, and no faster than 1,200 or 1,300 fps.
I say use a heavy sub-sonic .44 with 300 gr. bullet,suppressed or not, and aim to break BOTH shoulders.
If using smaller rifles,get a deer's skull and cross section it for study so you can find the brain from any angle that suits yor "tools".
(Men using RN .22LR taht are good at it, wait till the deer looks away from them, and then aim at the butt of the ear. SGB or larger heavier bullets give you more leeway in what you can accomplish.)
"punkin roller" vel.s will not anchor a deer with a body shot like a .270.
You've got to smash big bones or chop the CNS, or they will travel after receiving the bullet. (Like smashing the trans./differential on a vehicle, or pulling the main circuit breaker.)

Dave 32-20

Leftoverdj wrote that it is immoral to hunt with a suppressor.

Why?

Because the deer will not hear the shot?

Let me see if I understand suppressors well enough.

If you load the cartridge so that the projectile is subsonic then a suppressor will work by means of baffles that "deaden" the sound of the powder.

The important factor is that the bullet needs to be slowed down under the speed of sound, ie subsonic, to work.

A non-suppressed cartridge in any of the normal hunting cartridges such as the .243, .260, .270, .308, 30-06, .300's, et al are all pushing their bullets well above the speed of sound. This means that the deer is going to be met with the projectile BEFORE it is met with the sound. There is absolutely no difference to the game animal whether or not the weapon is suppressed.

How can it be immoral to hunt with a suppressor?

Ray, I am only commenting on the legal taking of game. I would never advocate the use of any piece of technology for poaching.

Jim B.

Ten grains of Unique under a 100 grain Speer plinker works pretty good and is not loud from my 30-30. Oddly enough it penetrates pretty good and expands a bit. I had to do some culling in an apple orchard in Washington state. The load I used there was a 210 grain cast bullet on top of 24.5 grains of IMR 4227 out of my 30-06. This load really penetrated well and was very accurate. No fillers in either load and the 210 grain bullet was gaschecked.

For quiet technique there are a couple of ways to go that produce low sound signature, but do not require a suppressor and its legal voodoo to own.

First, as noted you can use a pistol cartridge from a long-barreled rifle.

Second you can use a break-action shotgun with a rifled sub-caliber insert. These can be very quiet, and operate somewhat like a suppressor. Sighting them in can be a pain. When you get it done, use witness marks.

jim dodd