Assuming you strive for quick, clean kills on big game, and you only shoot when you are 95% certain of a quick, clean kill, what limitations do you place on yourself and your rifle, and how did you determine those limitations? My definition of big game is deer, elk, moose...animals of that size.

Now I admire tiny 5 shot groups as much as the next person, and I am in awe when I hear about a 500 yard shot resulting in a successful kill using an ultra high velocity magnum type cartridge, but long ago I asked myself just how much accuracy do I really need to hit the vitals of an elk or deer, and what is the realistic maximum range in which I can get quick, clean kills in less than ideal field conditions?

I hunt deer and elk, and shoot a 30-06 with factory ammo. Sure, I could probably get better accuracy if I handloaded, but after trying many brands and types of ammo, I found 4 kinds that my rifle likes, and the accuracy I get from this ammo ranges from just under 1 MOA to 1 1/2 MOA. Do I need better than 1 1/2 MOA accuracy? For me, no. Not how and where I hunt.

Will I take a shot at more than 300 yards? Unless the field conditions are perfect, no. Can I make a 300 to 400 yard shot if conditions are perfect? Yes, IF condtions are perfect. Will I take a shot over 400 yards? Never, because I know my cartridge is not a 400 plus yard cartridge, my rifle and load are not accurate enough at 400 plus yards, and I only practice out to 400 yards.

How did I come to accept these limitations for myself and my rifle? By shooting a lot at 100 to 400 yards using the ammo I hunt with, and shooting several times a year in all seasons, in weather ranging from hot and dry, to cool and wet, to very, very cold and snowy. I am usually the only person at the range when the weather is poor. I shoot from the bench to see what the ammo can do in these varying weather conditions, then I shoot from field positions to see what I can do in these varying weather conditions.

I keep my targets after each shooting session and put them in a binder. This shows me the long term shooting history of my rifle at a glance.

I stopped shooting 5 shot groups from my hunting rifle long ago. That is a waste of ammo and barrel life. And only rarely will I shoot a 3 shot group. Why? I've never needed 3 shots to down an animal. A well aimed first shot and a quick follow up is all I have ever needed. This is not because I am the greatest shot in the world, but because of my self imposed limitations based on my shooting skills and the limitations of the rifle and load I choose to use.

When I am at the range, I set up two targets at 100 yards, 2 targets at 200 yards, 2 and 300, and 2 at 400. I shoot only 2 shots at a time, and always from a cold, fouled barrel. The first shot goes into one target at 100 yards, and the second shot, my follow-up shot, goes into the second target at 100 yards. Then I wait a minimum of 30 minutes to get the barrel to that cold state again. I then do the same at 200 yards, cool the barrel. Then 300. Then 400. Why wait a minimum of 30 miniutes between each 2 shot "group"? Because when I hunt, it is in the fall or winter and it is quite cold outside, and that first shot at an animal is always from a very, very cold barrel.

This arrangement tells me everything that is important about my rifle, load and my abilities for how and where I hunt. After going through the targets twice during a practice session, I KNOW where that first shot from a cold, fouled barrel will hit at all ranges, and also where the follow-up shot will hit.

The ammo I use for deer shoots right at 1 MOA so my POA for both shots is the same. My elk ammo shoots 1 1/2 MOA, and the follow-up shot is always low and to the right from the first shot. I don't know why but it is. I have learned to adjust my follow-up shot POA just a tad up and left at 300 and 400 yards to compensate. Now my longer range accuracy is consistently around 1 MOA off the bench.

This is what I do and why. It took a few years to refine this technique, but I am a better hunter and a better shot because of it. During practice sessions, I make every shot meaningful, I analyze every shot, and I keep my targets for later study.

I know my and my rifle's limitations for that quick, clean kill, and I stay within those limitations. And I usually fill my tag come hunting season.

I am interested in hearing from other hunters on their techniques for determining their own self imposed limitations, whether those limitations are greater or less. roy p.

Roy:

I think we probably subscribe to the same school of thought on this front. The only big game I have here is whitetail. I buy those full size whitetail targets to shoot at. I shoot at a bullseye much more accurately than I do the vital zone of one of these lifelike targets. I like to practice from field positions as often as possible. My shooting club has a max distance of 265 yards.. 300 yards is an arbitrary max for me anyway. I will not pull the trigger unless I can hold steady on the vital zone at whatever range the animal is at from whatever position I am forced to shoot from. There seem to be an awful lot of people hung up on MOA accuracy for their big game rifles. I must admit I'm not happy when my groups go over 1.5", but truthfully 2" groups are all I would ever need.

Paul

Its interesting how many people seem to be able to kill game at 500+ yds but most seem to only do their practicing at 100. I also use an 06 as my primary weapon and limit myself to roughly 300yds in the field. If Im comfortable with a shot I will take it, if not I wont. In the field and from a bench are two totally different worlds IMHO.

I dial my guns in @ 50 yds then 100 then 200 usually with 3 shot groups unless I screw up.

Factory ammo nowadays is making it harder all the time to justify handloading because its quality is becoming very good. I still like the bullet selection and versatility a handloader has better though.

Our local range is 550 yards long and I practise out to this distance on a regular basis with my hunting loads.I use only custom rifles that shoot honest 1/2" groups at 100 yards and average 2" to 3" at 400 yards.Under perfect conditions I will shoot 500 yards at a game animal but the conditions must be perfect.I spend the extra money on high quality custom rifles because I want to eliminate as much equipment error as possible as shooter error will always be present to a certain extent and adding the extra equipment error can make the difference between a clean kill and a wounded animal.As an example my rifles average 2 to 3"groups at 400 yards while a rifle that shoots 2" groups at 100yards will probably average 8 to 10" groups at 400 yards.That extra six or seven inches of error could easily be the difference between a clean kill and a clean miss or worse yet a wounded animal and that is with no shooter error.My 2 to 3" groups allow a clean kill even with an equal amount of shooter error.

My goto big game rifle of many years has been a 25-06 loaded with 100 grain pills. I've maybe, MAYBE shot 100 rounds from a bench out of that rifle and maybe another 20 at deer size animals. I too find the followup shot rather uncommon. However, I've burned almost 3500 rounds on p.dogs and coyotes with that gun. That rifle happens to be a terrifically accurate tackdriver, but that's not what I bought the gun for. Fact is you learn a rifle, it's trajectory, and capabilities by shooting it. Again and again. And for me, that's half the fun and a good excuse to disappear for an afternoon.

Oh, as for limitations.... I've found that I can flatten a deer at any range I can dump a coyote!

[ 08-14-2002, 07:40: Message edited by: waldog ]

I practice at 100 yards, but I have memorized the trajectories of one or two bullets I use with my .338. I am also very aware of wind direction, take my shots with a supported rifle, and have memorized moose and bear anatomy like the palm of my hand to help with shot placement. Most of the moose I have killed have been around 200 yards, the one I killed last year 250 yards away, and the first moose ever 300 yards away. Two years ago I killed one at 100 yards. Most have dropped with one shot.

I have shot empty milk containers a couple of times at 200 yards-just to check the bullet trajectory, and I am certain I could easily kill a moose at 300 yards. However, I seldom see any I couldn't get to perhaps within 300 yards from it.

I am a hunter who reloads it's own, my rifle is pretty accurate for a plain hunting rifle (1MOA when shooting Matchkings for practice) and I think my shooting skills are somewhat above average. Under normal conditions I'am comfortable to shoot at any live animal within a maximum distance of 200-250 yds provided that I'am able to hold the cross wires in the vital zone of it.
For my practice shooting I'am limited to a 100m indoor range but once a year I get the chance to take part in a shooting competition on military open shooting range. The longest distance we shoot at is some 375 yds. The first time I participated in this shooting was an eye-opener regarding the effect of the wind when shooting at 250 plus yds. I then found out that even a moderate cross wind is hard to 'read' resulting in a considerable change in POI or horizontal stringing.
IMO, if you are aiming at 95% klean kills of deer-size animals, you should restrict yourself to a max. of 300 yds and even less under windy conditions.

I am in an area where the hunting of jack rabbits is unlimited, and often use my big game rifles to take them at all distances. It is fun practice and really hones your skill and range esimation. Bench time is limited for me as I have small boys tagging along most every time I go out and they aren't very patient.

I agree that the only way to truly know what your limitations are is to shoot alot witht he rifle in question. I have 2 rifles that I hunt big with at this time, a .270 I have had for years and .300 savage without a scope. These days I find the huntiong more fun than the killing so i do most of my hunting with the savage, I shoot it at least 20 rounds a week form feild positions, and my personal limit seems to be about about 200 yards ( 98 out of 100 shots hit the heart lung area of a deer sillouette)I do little practice at bullseye target, much preferring the sillouette types. To me this means a shot at 200 yards, but I won't knowingly shoot any farther than 175( this gives me a "margin for error"). With .270 I can meet the same criteria out to about 350 yards so I limit mysleft to about 300. This has always worked well for me.

Take it out for dinner and a movie....

Buell

Oh, Buell. Sigh. You have to sit down and talk with it. Get to know it's feelings and needs. Oh wait. This isn't oprah? Whoops! Sorry. LOL - Dan

I've used the same Model 70 in 7mm Remington rifle for about 20 years. I ordinarily practice at 100 yards, and keep printouts for the trajectories of the hunting loads I use ( 140-145 grain bullets at about 3000 fps ). There are a few 20-year-old reloads I have kept for reference; not my current loads but ones whose behaviour is well known.

The newer gun is a 6mm-284, more accurate but has less energy at longer ranges. Its point-blank range is about 325 yards, and I have not shot anything further than that.

I've taken a few longish shots but do it infrequently nowadays as I am finding it easier to get close shots than find conditions good enough for long ones. Almost all of my shooting in Wyoming and Montana is done from prone off a fanny pack, the result of sneakiness and a prediliction for ambush.

Tom

When it comes to preparation, I can get down right anal…er…meticulous. I make my own ammo and use each and every tool and trick at my disposal to make the best and highest quality ammo possible. I turn necks, primer pocket uniformers, weigh bullets, O.A.L. Gauges, bullet comparators, measure to the ogive and so forth. Is it necessary…in a word…Not at All! I do it for the fun of is as much as anything, and also for the mental preparation and confidence. The range I go to is out to 600 yards. And I do nearly all my shooting at 300 yards or more. Each and every shot is analyzed and logged. I continue to test loads and try different powders and primers. I have more time out of the woods then I get in them, so I use that time thinking about getting in them. Making ammo and testing loads and shooting at the range sometimes is as close as I get for months at a time. But when the time has arrived to head to the outback, I’m ready.

As far as a limitation on distance, there is no preconceived answer. Kind of like asking “Tiger Woods how far he hits an 8 iron.” It depends on a ton of variables. Animal size, conditions, elevation, wind, weather, visibility, set up, movement of animal. That is to say my limitations on a running piglet or stationary moose would be different. I do a lot of equipment analysis and personal challenges to keep pushing my abilities on paper. I will take a shot only when I know I can make it. My limitations are far inferior to my equipments.

Theres an article in the Aug. issue of handloader called "Technicalities" that kind of made me laugh. Mr. Scovill explains how he simply gets his gun to hit where he wants it to and then will focus the bulk of his practicing on "impromptu targets like rocks at unknown distances". He ends it saying "while I enthusiastically support those who want to shoot itsy bitsy clusters of bullet holes in paper, Im going hunting".

While his disposition on this matter goes to the point of being humorous IMO, there is actually something to it for sure. Hunting is not something that can be disected and anaylized like a corpse, it is very much an "alive" sport and requires split second desision making and physical reaction. These things are best learned by performing the act.

On the other hand, and in all seriousness, I feel that there are those who can do what they say in taking game responsibly at very long ranges, to me 300 yds is a long shot, I take my hat of to those who truly have the ability, for your a better shot than I am. But thats OK, I figure eveyone gets old and looses some of their steadyness and when these guys have that happen and are stumped about it Ill still be knocking them down at 50 yds..

Roy, I'm very impressed by your knowledge and technique, as well as your sense of what is and isn't necessary.

I use primarily a 30-06 (Remington 700 ADL, class of '72). I do handload, using the near universally accurate 57.5 grains of H4350 and 165 grain Sierra Gamekings.

I like the idea of waiting for an extended period of time for the bore to cool totally. You're right, that'll be the likely temperature of the bore when the money shot comes...

I zero my rifle for 250 yards. That may seem excessive, but the Vari X II (3 to 9) Leupold's 12 o'clock duplex junction happens to be my 100 yard zero (give or take an 1") and the junction of the 6 o'clock duplex comes in at 400 yards, and I've hit varmints routinely at that range.

I don't agree with John Barsness often, but I am finding that his contention that properly prepared and fed factory rifles are easily capable of 1/2 MOA and better is true. I've glass bedded and free-floated my rifle, and lightened the trigger to 2 3/4 pounds. Prone from the bags, the old ADL will put two relatively quick shots within an inch of each other at 300 yards, and has toppled three for three when shooting popcans at 400 yards both times I've tried it. I'm finding that bull barrel accuracy truly *can* be had from good sporter barrels, if adequate cooling time is allowed. The 700 ADL 30-06 shoots right on the heels of my most accurate heavy barreled .308 win.

Of course your contention that such accuracy isn't totally necessary for general hunting ranges is correct.

I practice sitting positions, and can hit the vitals of a deer at my rifle's zero (250 yards) from a sling supported sitting position. I should admit, however, that I've not taken a deer at that range in the sitting position.

I've found off hand shooting much, much easier when I dial the scope down to 3X. When set on 9 power, the slight jitters which really don't matter get magnified, and the tendency to try to compensate for those jitters screws everything up. On 3 power, I can just lock on and shoot.
I can hit a basketball sized rock at 150 yards, standing, as often as need be. The single best thing I ever did for my off hand shooting was to get the scope's magnification down.

Thanks for a thoughtful and inspiring post...

Dan Newberry
green 788

Thanks for a thoughtful and inspiring post...

Dan Newberry
green 788

Aw shucks, Dan. Twernt nuthin'. Actually, the reason I kind of spilled my guts is because I have gotten so much information, inspiration, and just great knowledge from this site. I owe a lot to the people who are the REAL pros that regularly comment about all things hunting and guns. I want to personally thank all of you for helping me and inspiring me to shoot better.

I have a comment to all the older REAL hunting pros out there. When someone asks a question that has been answered in the past, please continue to answer those questions and give your opinions. There are a lot of new hunters out there who look to YOU for guidance and knowledge. Please help all the new guys by continuing to answer their sometimes basic questions. I don't mean to put a guilt trip on you, but it is all of YOU hunting pros out there who have at least some obligation to keep our sport going, and to further the interest in shooting by assisting the new guys.

Now I am not a new guy, but I definitely am not a pro. Even though I think I am a decent shot and an ethical hunter, I get useful knowledge from darn near all the posts here, whether or not they are directly related to the kind of shooting and hunting I do. I also am surprised by just how much useful information I get from someones personal opinions to a basic question.

As I said in my original post, it took me a few years to refine my shooting technique...to realize that my hunting was not going to improve if I shot gobs of ammo trying to get teeny groups to test the accuracy of my rifle. I slowly gained knowledge by reading and talking and shooting and hunting. I gained a lot of knowledge by reading a lot. I also gained a lot of knowledge by reading comments on the internet gun sites. I hope that my original post and all the following posts will help the new guys trying to dial in their rifles to bag that animal come hunting season.

So, to all the old pros out there. Keep the comments going. Remember there are no dumb questions.

Well OK. Sometimes someone does ask a dumb question. roy p.

The better I get to know my rifle and myself, the shorter my maximum range seems to become.

I found out a couple of years ago that the POI difference between free recoil shooting from the bench, off shooting sticks, prone and off-hand ranged roughly 8" at 100 yards.

So much for "practicing at 100 at the range.....". JMO, Dutch.

I don't like to shoot at anything in the field over 200 yards, and I will get as close as possible. I limit myself to 350 yards, although my equipment will kill much farther. My fartherest Elk kill is 299 yards. I practice shooting three days a week every week from my private benchs, and off hand and with rests several times prior to the hunt. My rifles are capable of shooting one hole groups at 100 yards and near that at 200, when I have a good day pulling the trigger. I shoot with the aid of a range finder, if at all possible, sometimes it isn't. I once jumped a Bull Elk and made a running shot at 80 yards that I still consider lucky, as I do will all my Elk kills. I try to practice enough to be lucky. I shoot hard hitting rifles from .300 Win, .340 Wby, to .358 STA, and have killed Bulls with all three chamberings. Deer get from 7mm STW down to .257 Wby and 30-30. The pulling of the trigger and placing the crosshair on the target enough times for the shooting to become instinctive is the ideal. Everytime I place my sights on a big game animal I consider it the greatest previlige in the world. Good shooting.

Practice your shooting & hunting skills...
As a kid I walked the woods at my grandparents with a 22 and shot about 500 rounds a weekend (loved that Remington Nylon12). My grandfather built custom Mausers and we had a 100yd berm beside the shop for testing (got boring). I wanted to go walking and shooting with my 22. My grandparents house sat on a 50' berm over the bend of a flowing creek. You could shoot cans from 50-250yds as they floated down the creek. The trick was to hit them at the near edge and flip them into the air without poking a hole in them (they'd sink to fast- ran out of cans) I went through the junior NRA program at camp every summer earning my patches and medals. I usually shot at least 1 buck & 1 doe per season (I really miss deer camp with my grandfathers
Then I went to Nam as an infantryman (Sgt.in A-3/21,196thLIB,Americal) and put my hunting skills to work in the QueSonValley. All of my years walking the woods kept me alive (did spend 7wks in the hospital coming home)(If you want a real challenge- hunt dinks for a living- they shoot back with AK47s).
I shoot a wonderful Steyr-Mannlicher in 06 with double-set triggers, Zeiss glass & a KDF muzzle brake. I hand load for economy, because I know how, I get to shoot the bullets I want- 150s for small stuff, 165s for deer, 220s for hogs (love to knock em in the dirt). I would still rather walk the woods and shoot instead of working groups in paper.
The only time I go to the range is to check out a new batch of loads and find out where they're grouping- then I'm goin to the woods!

I practice my bowhunting the same way-
I keep two tree seats up in the back yard and move my practice target around to practice distance, angle & body position for the shot.
I used to hunt with compounds but have gone back to a beautiful custom take-down recurve and am back to shooting instinctive with fingers. (no shots over 40yds- just like a rifle shot over 400yds)

my humble $.02cents worth-
CaptJack (used to be Sgt.Krohn)

depends on the load and gun.

I sight in for a 1.5" MPB and that's as far as I'll generally shoot. I've done the long shots, but for me, a ground stalking pig and deer hunter, 30 to 100 is normal. I shoot bigger bores than most guys (mebbe not most on this board) 358, 376, 375, various 416s, 58cal and 577. I've got smaller stuff, and use it what i HAVE (wish you could make that 40 point type) to sit in a stand.

cheers
jeffe

I like to get my rifle sighted in, then to the prarie dog town I go. I like to walk and shoot using different rest and positions. You get lots of pratice judging distance and lots of little targets way out there. I guess my rifles shoot minute of prarie dog groups. And all I need is minute of Elk. It's quite a spectacle when a 180 grain Partition out of a 300Wby hits one of them prarie rats.

Barny
_________________________________________________
Pratice, pratice, pratice then pratice again

[ 08-20-2002, 07:15: Message edited by: barny ]

A little different. About 99% of my shooting is done with pistol and rifle in 22lr.

I bench a lot, practice off hand, weaver stance, etc.

For my current rifle, I sight it in at 50 yards, offhand, since it's a 375 H&H, use 270 grain, softpoints, at about 2800 fps, federal classics, point, and flinch...

It goes straight, but I have a tenancy to come up on it, stringing. Let you know next time I try it, if I can get it sighted in at 2 inches high at 50 yards. Ideally, I will do the same at 100 yards, but, I'm of the school that the only reason I'm going to be using this guy is if someone is out to eat me, gore me, or horn me, so I want to be able to get two shots, within 4 inches of aim, at 50 yards, and I'm happy, offhand, fast.

gs

I try not to shoot over 300 yards. A look at velocity and bullet drop over 300 yards convinced me of that.

The plain truth, this will be my 40th hunting season. In that time I can count exactally two deer killed over 300 yards. The rest were all under and many of them well under. All of my elk were taken reasonably close. The longest shot was approximately 175 yards. And it isn't my superior stalking skill that puts my close to animals. I've had a chance to study deer that walk into my yard to feed. The distant sound of cars passing bothers them badly. A car coming over the hill a mile to the west makes them nervous. But a car going by the road into the house doesn't rate a glance. This is true of almost all deer. There are a few that show up that run at any sound and almost no sound. Applying that to my hunting method, it seems that deer and maybe elk, aren't spooked by close sould like grass rustling and twigs breaking, but are spooked by distant noises they can't identify. That would explain why I have had a prepoderance of shots under 200 yards and beyond that, have seen deer and elk charging away at distances over half a mile. I might be on to something. I don;t knwo what. I'm working on it.

While I do practice shooting at distances out to 350 yards and do hit consistantly, I will think twice before taking a shot at that distance on game. It would depend on the circumstance. Up or down hill. Wind and direction. How hard I'm breathing. Side shot? It all depends. I always keep in the back of my mind that it I pull the trigger and connect, my hunting season is over. I am reluctant to stop tramping the hills and plains.

roy p,

I subscribe to what you and most have said here. Experience, practice, successes and failures, all add up to knowledge.

Like all activities which require the use of a tool or equipment, familiarity with said tool or equipment is paramount.

However, when hunting, there is the premeditated affair and the spur-of-the-moment affair, which can take place. The latter is a tough choice for the hunter.

Premeditated affairs, you wait for the clean shot at a distance, this requires a metal calm, in which the rifle has little to do with, assuming you know your rifles characteristics. This is analogous to seeing the shot and the end result in one's mind prior to taking it. Usually resulting in solid success 90% of the time attempted.

Spur-of-the-moment affairs, stll require a certain calmness, but now you are forced to react with the possible leading of the game or other chancey shot. To swing and make a rapid smooth shot is a challenge, to be sure. Most will always shoot to quick without a proper sight picture and pay the price for it. There is usually a split more time available if one could control their reactionary emotions. Many would pass this one up, but a few can succeed quite well. I think if one succeeds once or twice at this shot your confidence will take you into new territory and ability.

I am one who believes strongly in the ability to overcome adversity with the mind and use it to it's fullest extent (toughness, concentration, envisioning, etc.). After all, thats what controls everything else within my control, rifle included.

rossi

[ 09-19-2002, 22:00: Message edited by: rossi ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dutch:
I found out a couple of years ago that the POI difference between free recoil shooting from the bench, off shooting sticks, prone and off-hand ranged roughly 8" at 100 yards.

Yup. If there's distance of any consequence involved I shoot off the fanny pack from prone, which has about the same POI as a sandbag at the range. Most of the time if the game is far away there is time to prepare for a shot, otherwise I wave bye-bye and keep looking.

I'm finding it easier to get closer shots than to find good conditions for long ones, these days.

Tom

I only use one of 2 rifles for large game and 2 for small game..22 lr,.22 hornet, 30/30, and 7.62x54r. All are older slower velocity guns and I only check on the bench a couple of times per year. All of my practice is in the woods at random targets. I shoot every week with one or the other and use air rifles to practice form almost every day.
The 30/30 and the hornet are 150 yards(for me) and the 7.62x 54r is good on deer to 350.
I have several 6" round metal plates set at different locations spread over several hundred acres to practice field shooting. The plates are painted dull grey.
Any distance that I can consistently hit the plate, from multiple shooting positions, is my limit for that gun.
It works for me and I don't miss very often at "my" ranges, YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.

I seldom take a shot at 500 or 600 yards because I KNOW I will hit the animal, but I don't know where! so I limit my shooting to about 300 unless I have a good rest and everything is right then I will take a 400 yard standing shot.

Mostly poor shooters miss at 400 to 600, excellent shots will wound or kill at those ranges, thats a fact....go figure.