To hate your state's Fish & Wildlife People???

One of the biggest thing I hate, is these people who are " employed"... to keep coming up with complex regulations, complex hunting zones.. and all of these special " controlled " hunts.....

Everyone has to go in a big lottery, yet it sure seems that anyone attached to the state's Hunter ASSociation, never ever has a problem being "selected" for a controlled tag....

It also seems to never be a problem for those that live in the major metro area of the state, or the state capitol or the town where our lefty lib university is located... all in a state that is ran by Democrats... and all the rewards go to the areas that vote for the democrats, and then the rest of the state's 98% of the geography, whom vote Republican, has to pay for all these people's bright ideas....

Our state can left wolves and cougars run wild and do nothing about it, yet they can come up with tons of regulations, telling you that you can hunt deer or elk on this side of this road in the middle of nowhere, but not on this side...

As all lefty lib ran state governments, they can always complain they are broke and need more taxes.... while these idiots from Fish & Wildlife for instance can drive around in 40K pickups and SUVs, beating the crap out of them, not taking care of them.... so they can come up with reasons, to once again, tell us all what to do....

Hunting is just one little example of how we are over governed in this nation on domestic issues, and then the government not taking care of things they should be domestically elsewhere... oh like illegal immigration.....

If our stupid government spent a fraction of the time focusing on our own country, as they want to spend focusing on Iraq... at least that would be encouraging....

but politicians, regardless of what side of the party lines they claim to be on.. are only out for themselves and the only time they need "We the citizens" is re election time... after that all they do is piss on the public... from Washington, right down to our local county seats....

Ok it's a rant.
I'll give ya a 3.5 for lack of significant swear words.

I can relate to what you say here in N.M. tha game dept keeps making it harder for people like me to hunt deer but it dont deter them goddamn texans and yankees WHO got LOTS OF MONEY

Seafire, from what you are saying I didn't know that New York went that far west!

Thing is our politicans aren't trying to hide their misdeeds anymore. We haven't held them accountable and they know that they can do what ever the _ _ _ K they want.

Seafire,
I too live in Oregon, and it sure isn't perfect but Im staying!
You obviously didn't do too good in the draws this year. Sorry. Don't go blaming the government, and you sure as hell shouldn't blame OHA. IN FACT IF YOU REALLY CARED YOU WOULD JOIN OHA and contribute to the wildlife and hunting that Oregon has to offer.
I will have to keep this short, I have to pack for my elk hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Youmg:
I can relate to what you say here in N.M. tha game dept keeps making it harder for people like me to hunt deer but it dont deter them goddamn texans and yankees WHO got LOTS OF MONEY

NM has one of the worst game management plans in the US....and it is getting worse.

quote:

Originally posted by KC Carlin:
Seafire,
I too live in Oregon, and it sure isn't perfect but Im staying!
You obviously didn't do too good in the draws this year. Sorry. Don't go blaming the government, and you sure as hell shouldn't blame OHA. IN FACT IF YOU REALLY CARED YOU WOULD JOIN OHA and contribute to the wildlife and hunting that Oregon has to offer.
I will have to keep this short, I have to pack for my elk hunt.

sorry KC...

I have no intention of leaving this state...Just because the government sucks, doesn't mean it is any better elsewhere.. the entire nation has been sold out by politicians to special interests...

I consider the incrowd of OHA part of the same "special interest"... it is a case of one hand washing the other, and claiming it is for the benefit of all hunters... I don't see it that way....I don't support OHA whatsoever.....

My complaint, is why does the state need all of these "draws" in the first place?????

Back evidently before they managed the crap out of the state's wildlife, people could hunt all over Oregon...None of this draw for east of the Cascades for this, for that etc....

How many people all over eastern Oregon can't go out and hunt a couple of miles from their homes, unless they "do good in the draws"???
That is BS, and that is a reality after Wildlife Management became so much intense...

Why are they Holding special raffles for big bucks, auctioning off "licenses"... so that they can throw more money into their coffers?
What is OHA doing but supporting that?

Why is the amount of deer, declined IMMENSELY in the last 10 yrs, and Elk in many parts of NE Oregon in the last 25, and Mule deer all over eastern Oregon.... all the while where " game management " has let the number of cougars increase dramatically and the release of wolves in Neighboring Idaho, that have migrated across Oregon to Crater Lake and even to just east of coast??? I say so, because I have personally seen them......

Yet draw tags and special hunts... always seem to go to those that are connected with the F& W advisory panel, the OHA hierarchy, and a host of other well connected Portland, Salem and Eugene elite....

I love this state, but the government in this state can kiss my ASS! I see a poacher, I won't turn him in... I see someone kill a wolf or a cougar, I won't turn them in...... because most of them are fed up with the state and their never ending governmental controls and dictates, that always apply to the masses, to mean more elitism to the connected....

I could care less on how I turn out in the draw.... but it pisses me off that they have to play this lottery BS period.......

Deer hunting in this state sucks anymore.. and the number of Elk hunters crammed into certain areas during the "general season"..because of "control hunts".... has caused too many accidents... I quit hunting by Crater Lake because two seasons running, several over anxious guys were shot, and two were killed... right in the area I was hunting in....

if the state were more open, people would not be so crammed into certain areas that open for "general season"......

"controlled hunting" is just another governmental sham, trying to convince us all that we are getting screwed for 'our own good'... while promoting Big city and Political elitism....

You Oregan guys do have a ton of liberals in your state. I heard freeloader people move to oregon just to get the welfare. Sad situation.

Seafire,
I live in Eastern Oregon, and yes it does make me a little hot under the collar to see "valley hunters" in my neck of the woods when I didn't draw a tag to hunt in my own county. That being said, the deer and elk population could not handle the open season's that we had when I was a kid. You mentioned the deer population has been down in the last 10 years, and you are right. Remember what also happened 10 years ago? Measure 38 banned the baiting of bears and the use of hounds to hunt cougars. What group fought to try and stop it= OHA.
What group to this day is fighting to allow hound hunting for cougars= OHA.
In 2003 I drew a once in a lifetime tag for Rocky Mountain Bighorn. I am not a "in guy" for F&W or OHA, just a regular hunter. I feel your frustration with some of our State's problems, but don't put fuel on the anti hunters fire.
The way I see it joining OHA is like joining any other group. The more you put into it the more you will get out of it. You or I will never totally agree with everything that the organization does, but the mission of OHA is one that every hunter benefits from, and is well worth being a part of.
You can bitch about it here at AR or make a positive step towards wildlife.
JOIN OHA!
www.oregonhunters.org
Oregon Hunters Association
P.O. Box 1706
Medford, OR 97501

Just a comment on "complecated draw systems and regulations"

Theoretical Examples

1. in a COMPLICATED SYSTEM: Mule deer populations are not too good in this area but we could still have a limited harvest and give a hunting opportunity to a controlled number of hunters. SO WE WILL PUT IT ON A DRAW.

2. In a SIMPLE SYSTEM : Mule deer populations are not too good in this area. NO HUNTING SEASON

I find it hard to figure out the coplicated systems sometime but I prefer some opportunity to no opportunity.

Robin down under

KC:

We won't see eye to eye on OHA.....

But I sure hope you enjoy a good deer and elk season this year....

Deer are horribly down this year, worse than last several....Elk, I will find out later this week....

I am not going out this weekend, as that is usually when all the trigger happy guys are out there, ready to shoot anything that makes a move or a peep....with two hunters being killed recent seasons in that area, and several more wounded....

I am pissed I won't be able to hunt over near Powers, because the closest NON Control season in November is way up in Sluislaw zone west of Eugene.... an area unfamiliar to me, and too close to Eugene and all of its lefty libs...

So it may not be sociable, and even Juvenile, but Fish & Wildlife can shove their lotteries up there underwear as far as I am concerned....Its most effective use in my opinion is providing unneeded jobs, to more bureaucrats, just to milk the taxpayers out of more and more money, while dictating to us all on what to do.....like any good democratic controlled state government would want to do...

A fella's welcome to his opinion but I have no beef with the F&G or DNR in the states I hunt in. I figure they're doing their best to apply scientific game management principles while being whipsawed between politicians, antis, the news and infotainment media, other state departments fighting for budget dollars, the tourism board who wants to attract outstate sportsmen, and local hunters who know how to do the job better. I especially admire the enforcement officers who know that come the firearm seasons every person they encounter will have a gun in his hands or in the vehicle. They are the stewards of our birthright, I say cut 'em a break.

Guys I moved to Kentucky from Massachusetts thirteen years ago it was the best move I have ever made. I moved from a state were they cloesed state parks from lack of "funds" to a state were hunting and fishing is promoted by the state. Kentucky has a very liberal deer season and many special draw deer seasons before the regular season. They have brought back elk and now have a limited draw season. The have a free youth hunt deer season for one weekend to introduce young people to hunting. I know it sucks trying to draw for tags in some states but we have it pretty good here in Kentucky! Bryan

The thing that worries me about all of this is that hunting is turning into a rich mans sporting outing. The days of farmers allowing his neighbors to hunt are quickly vanishing. Lease hunting is getting to be the rule in many places. Luckily I have access to thousands of National Forest acres.

I do understand that not everyone can kill a sheep every year. I guess the wildlife management is doing the best they can, all things considered.

The days of "living off the land" to one degree or another are vanishing. Why pay a landowner 2000$ or more to shoot a couple deer when you can go to Walmart and buy what you need for way less? I know "the thrill of the hunt", "doing it yourself" and so on but when hunting becomes economically unfeasable it becomes more of a rich mans sport, such as African hunting. How many people that shoot buffalo, elephant do it for the meat?

I would hate to see hunting in our country limited to only the "lucky few". Hunting should be a lifestyle for everyone that wants it.

I've hunted deer in New Mexico since 1963, more years than most of you have lived. The problem in New Mexico isn't the Fish & Game Department. It starts with politics and lobbying groups paid by those special interest groups that try to see that as much money as possible has to funnel through them. When I got disillusioned was when the hunting outfitters in New Mexico got together and bought the politicians so laws were changed to ensure that hunters coming to New Mexico had to pay them. It didn't matter that I had lived in New Mexico for 23 years before moving to Texas. It didn't matter that I wanted to hunt the same mountains I had hunted for over ten of those years. The outfitters saw to it that I would have to pay them.

The F&G Department is just a tool, like a hammer.....or a gun. Remember the story "guns don't kill people, people kill people"? Well politicians and the greedy not-so-special interest groups, such as hunting outfitters with the means to buy politicians are killing hunting as we've known it. The commercialization of hunting is what is dooming the sport.

I seem to remember when money spent on hunting was used to maintain habitat, improve the health of the herds, etc, etc. Now I think the goal is to make as much money as possible before the last deer dies.

My problem is when the regs get so complicated it takes a week of just reading them over to figure things out. Im not sure if others have had similar problems but some of the regs seem to be intentionaly over complicated and often obtuse. It shouldnt be problematic to figure out what you can do and where you can do it. They print 60 pages of double talking legalese BS and then wonder why folks have trouble understanding all the zones etc. I wont even comment on all the special interests that have their hands in the pie. Unfortunately due to the nature of politics and money this inludes many DNR's these days. Whatever happened to being straightforward and up front about things? Another sign of the times I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
A fella's welcome to his opinion but I have no beef with the F&G or DNR in the states I hunt in. I figure they're doing their best to apply scientific game management principles while being whipsawed between politicians, antis, the news and infotainment media, other state departments fighting for budget dollars, the tourism board who wants to attract outstate sportsmen, and local hunters who know how to do the job better. I especially admire the enforcement officers who know that come the firearm seasons every person they encounter will have a gun in his hands or in the vehicle. They are the stewards of our birthright, I say cut 'em a break.

I think nord is right on. Anyone who says "they won't turn in a poacher" because they are pissed at the system and their perception of what is going on behind the scenes is part of the problem, not a solution.

quote:

I love this state, but the government in this state can kiss my ASS! I see a poacher, I won't turn him in... I see someone kill a wolf or a cougar, I won't turn them in...... because most of them are fed up with the state and their never ending governmental controls and dictates, that always apply to the masses, to mean more elitism to the connected....

That doesn't say much about a person's ethics or character as a hunter...sad, very sad. It shows how much you care for the resource.

Fact of the matter is, most states are confronted with such an array of brush fires (diseases, loss of winter range, T&E species, carnivoirs, private land damage, loss of hunter access/opportunity, outfitters, etc, etc,) in addition to special interest groups wanting their "own" way (yea Seafire, you fit into this group too...you're wanting your own way) and it makes for tough wildlife management. Like I read in Wyoming Wildlife earlier today, "wildlife management is like trying to feed a cajun, vegan, and midwesterner when the only thing on your menu is meat and potatoes."

MG

Well MadGoat,

Guess that makes me a bad citizen...

But In a world where our politicians and half the guys I see who work for Fish & Wildlife, and many other state departments....

I'd rather be a bad citizen, than the average scum sucking politician..... or most of the bureaucratic bozos that are state employees....
or part of the " good old boys club" that is ran by these people supposedly " regulating wild life"... for all the citizens and the good of wildlife management... Yeah Right

Guess it is all where you put your priorities...

I live in a state where the game populations are booming. The trouble here is not all the DNRs fault.

We need a longer general deer season. But every time it get proposed the bow hunters start yelling the anti's start yelling ect ect it.

Even some of the fire arm hunters start yell we don't want a longer season you well kill to many or we been hunting this way for the past 40 years and are deer camp vacations ect are set up around a 9 day season.

The DNR is not right all the time and is wrong on a lot of things.(like wolves) bear numbers.

The fact that we don't have breeding Mt. lion population.

But even when they try and propose a positive change like a longer hunt,more hunting seasons like a dove ,crane hunt ect. They get a lot of flack.

Lots of factors but it doesn't help that the DNR/s are getting filled with anti enviro wacko types.

So what am I saying If I were king I would change a lot of things. I would be happy others would not be.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Well MadGoat,

Guess that makes me a bad citizen...

But In a world where our politicians and half the guys I see who work for Fish & Wildlife, and many other state departments....

I'd rather be a bad citizen, than the average scum sucking politician..... or most of the bureaucratic bozos that are state employees....
or part of the " good old boys club" that is ran by these people supposedly " regulating wild life"... for all the citizens and the good of wildlife management... Yeah Right

Guess it is all where you put your priorities...

Well I don't know how they do it in Oregon, but in Wyoming the G&F has public season setting meetings to discuss the upcoming season recommendation and take public comments. It always boggles me how few folks actually show up to voice their concerns (or for that matter to listen to the G&F folks about WHY they are proposing to do with seasons) but then those who weren't present at the meetings always seem to be grandstanding at the local bar or sporting goods store about "why the G&F screwed up....". Maybe if these people were in attendence at one of these meetings they would have a better perception about what is going on and why, than their BULLSHIT Monday morning quarterbacking when all they can do is complain based upon one or two days field time.

MG

I can completely relate to this delima. I came to Kansas from New Mexico in 2005 because of health reasons, but that state was the worst I have ever lived in for hunting by John Q citizen. One thing which I did learn, was that the Game and Fish Department itself is not the culprit. It is the game and fish commission. In the case of New Mexico these are jobs appointment by the governor. Many of the commissioners are ranchers, so, when it comes to setting seasons, limits and whatnot, guess who benefits more than the average hunter. Ranchers sell off their elk authorizations, usually, to the highest bidder outfitter (read USO and others like them) who then charge huge amounts of dollars to conduct elk hunts. Now, the game and fish departments enforce the laws and regulations set by the commissions. There are a lot of good, decent game and fish officers who completely disagree with what the commission does, but has to enforce the regulations or end up finding other employment. What is going on with our wild game and our fish is called politics, and in politics, money talks. Out-of-state hunters who knock off several hundred thousand dollars a year can afford to spend $8,000 to $20,000 to kill and elk. After getting turned down year-after-year with the shitty New Mexico lottery on elk, I finally drew the third hunt of a fairly good area. However, by the time my hunt rolled around, the elk had been run out of my small unit. I could not afford the $1,500 to $2,500 to buy an elk license authorization from a rancher. Now, I made do, by hook and crook, but most hunters can't do this. The average hunter in most Western States are getting raped royally because of greed. It is truely a sorry state of affairs. Well, I feel better. Thanks ... Tom Purdom

hope not because i despise the twra!! never has been a bigger bunch of idiots running a state game agency than the tennessee wildlife resorces agency.

I think very highly of our G&F people, it is the feds I detest! I am yet to meet a Wyoming Game and Fish employee that I didn't like! The biologists are from a different mold but the wardens are human beings.

Well I don't know how they do it in Oregon, but in Wyoming the G&F has public season setting meetings to discuss the upcoming season recommendation and take public comments. It always boggles me how few folks actually show up to voice their concerns (or for that matter to listen to the G&F folks about WHY they are proposing to do with seasons) but then those who weren't present at the meetings always seem to be grandstanding at the local bar or sporting goods store about "why the G&F screwed up....". Maybe if these people were in attendence at one of these meetings they would have a better perception about what is going on and why, than their BULLSHIT Monday morning quarterbacking when all they can do is complain based upon one or two days field time.

MG[/QUOTE]

MG:

Now you make some very valid points....

IN this state, they have stuff like that, but it is always held in Portland or Salem...IN the NW part of the state... for the rest of us, it is too far to go for a meeting or open forum on that...

That is where the Oregon Hunters Association comes in, and that is located actually locally for me, in S. Oregon....

However, I have met a few guys over there, and it seems that it is more a Good Old boys club, than anything else....They get good press, but the press that doesn't make print isn't all that good...I see it as a corrupted organization... My opinion only... but that is how I see it...

It needs to be made more accessible to many citizens.... way too much of the residents in this state, can't even go out and hunt near there homes... courtesy of all the people from the state's biggest city and the state capital...

A lot of EnvironMental wackos also go after F & W jobs... to promote their view of the world...

Kinda like a person getting a job as a highway patrolman, so they can do all they can to keep all the cars off the highway.....

Everybody hates their Game and Fish or whatever department. So, 2 dozen different groups of people complain and demand diametrically different things. Consequently, in an attempt to garner just a little bit of love, the agency gives you 2 dozen different seasons/regulations to make everyone happy.

At which point, everyone now complains about 23 of the 2 dozen new regs that aren't their's. This gives all the "experts" more to complain about. This of course leads to 23*24=552 new seasons and regulations. Now, we can see that there will now be 24+552-2=574 new things to complain about - and you can figure out where it goes from here.

Of course, every game management "genius" with a keyboard could fix all of these problems in a blink of an eye. But strangely, none of them ever decide to take on game management for a career - which is good, because that leaves them more time to complain and blame the "liberals" - and why not? It's a safe and important civic duty....

I sure wish all you geniuses would "fix" the game regs around here. I can only kill about 5 or 6 deer legally, whereas, 10-12 years ago, before all those "idiots" got involved, I could kill only 2 at most. Back then the harvest for the entire state was under 100,000, now its around 220,000. Boy those folks really suck!


Brent

PS. While you are at it, please be sure to vote for the candidates that will slash the budgets of these offending bastards so they are even more handcuffed than they already are. No sense in supporting such idiots you know...

Well Brent,

you are not located in the western states, which the game is becoming scarcer.... courtesy of the cougars and wolves....

by the way, how long have YOU worked for the Iowa DNR anyway???

Well, I hunt in the western states quite a bit. Some game species are up, some are down, demand is huge, supply limited. Drought in many places, too many cows, too many ATVs, too many everything. But still some of it gets better, some gets worse. I'm sure you could do better -so get to work.

And, nope, I don't work for IDNR. Never have. I just don't hate them like you do.

Brent

What it really comes down to is that some folks are never really happy unless they're miserable.
Seafire, there is no way in a democracy (or any other society with a population of more than one) that the gummint is going to please everyone. You can believe that DNR or F&G write the rules they do just for their own good, but as someone who works with law enforcement and has dealt with conservation officers in a few different states, I beleive that the vast majority are doing the best they can to provide fishing, hunting, hiking, bird-watching, camping, mountain-biking, berry-picking, ginseng-digging, trapping (you get the point) opportunities for all the citizens for whom they work.
The simple fact is, you're just one of the displeased.

quote:

Originally posted by wihntr:
What it really comes down to is that some folks are never really happy unless they're miserable.

Now that is about as spot-on accurate as anyone can be. Sums it up, lock, stock, and barrel --- Sadly.

Well I guess that just makes me a BAD disgruntled Citizen then... or some guys are just more tolerant of the government screwing up life for everyone.... but sooner or later, you time for frustration saturation will get there....

The only thing I see government good at any more is lying to the public and coming up with excuses so far fetched, you know that they are just trying to see how gullible the public really is.....

Sorry I didn't read all the posts in case I'm retreading something already said.

I first became associated with my home state's game department many years ago. For many years I was one of thir strongest advocates among peers (hunters). I was very familiar with staff from field staff to the highest level (director). I worked with them to advance their agenda, write & pass legislation and sell the programs to the public. In short I believed in what they were doing.

This began to change about ten years ago. A trend in the agency became increasingly appearent that they were becoming just another self promoting beruacracy. Highly devoted and motivated high level personnel were "replaced" The new comers were blatant political appointments with questionable credentials. We still had one of the best field staff's in the country but that to slowly changed as the established personnel either left in discust or were forced out (or promoted to positions where they were more controled and less available to the public).

Presently I question virtually everything they do. Everything involves money. Non-refundable fees to apply for a lottery that you stand slim chance of being drawn for. Fees for hunter safety classes taught by volentereers (of which I was one) whose donated time is billed to USF&W for reimbursement with "P-R Fund" monies that are then spent on "other" things. Fees to participate in "special hunts" and fees for the shooting qualification required for them.... The last straw was when they instituted a "mandantory contribution" via increased license cost to a private organization. All this while the previous habitat and game enhancement programs of twenty and more years ago are totally abandonded. I could go on and on but whats the use? They've increased most hunting oportunities (most directed at deer) but thats an unashamed ploy to keep hunter numbers (license fees) up.

Bad citizen? No my friend, I'd call you a thinking citizen!

I have spent most of my time hunting in OK, TX and WYO. I would say that OK has the most "user friendly" game wardens and staff's I have met. TX is in second place and WYO needs to wake up and join the 21st century.

The OK staff are involved in education, enforcement, the gun shows and nearly every chance they have to get in and mix with the hunting public. In Tx it seemed they were the "Texas Ranger" type - wear the badge, write the ticket and move on. In Wyoming - I think they got whatever college degree from a box of Cracker Jacks - what a bunch of cowboys with little thought that they are public servants, not some neanderthal chasing elk in their state supplied vehicles.

The solution is to go the way of South Africa and turn over the management of animals to the land owners. Let the people that own the land on which the animals reside do the management and control. On public land, manage it for habitat and put the game laws into focus there.

quote:

The solution is to go the way of South Africa and turn over the management of animals to the land owners. Let the people that own the land on which the animals reside do the management and control.
[\quote]

You gotta be kidding - so we can buy animals and shoot them in pens? Wildlife belong to the citizens of the nation here. There is a reason for that.

[quote] On public land, manage it for habitat and put the game laws into focus there.

Yeah, like that is gonna work...

Brent

Seafire I'd say you're probably right in there with a lot of us on that one. Most of these regulations are to do two things. Raise more revenue in the form of special hunts and of course the other along those lines is for them to write more tickets. Then there is the other aspect screw up hunting there are more antis in the Game departments of states than you'll care to believe. Same Old S--- here in Washington.

Now it almost takes an attorney to understand the game laws. I've talked to several Game people in Washington and it is apparent that they don't even understand them. A sad state of affairs. The Game pamphlet used to be under 20 pages and hunting was good. Now it's over 80 and we have the new game management and the hunting sucks.

quote:

Well, I hunt in the western states quite a bit. Some game species are up, some are down, demand is huge, supply limited. Drought in many places, too many cows, too many ATVs, too many everything. But still some of it gets better, some gets worse. I'm sure you could do better -so get to work.

You will never admit that the wolves are decimating the elk, drought has little to do with lower elk numbers here in WY. Areas with no wolves and the same drought, have increasing elk numbers, yet areas with wolves and drought have decreasing numbers.

You and your liberal fiends, will never accept or admit, the illegally reintroduced wolf has done "no good"! And that is not an index finger!

I have a couple of friends that went on a semi-guided elk hunt last year in Idaho. They were dropped at a base camp with a two way radio to check in with the guide every couple of days. The first check in the guide/outfitter ask if they had seen anything. When they reported that they had only seen a couple of wolves the outfitter came back with-"well break out the cards cause you won't see any elk in the canyon your in. Either play cards or hike to the next canyon a few miles off is the best you can do."
They never saw an elk and since they weren't what you would call mountainiers they played a lot of cards. They should have at least tried to give the wolves lead poisoning.

kudu, decimate - reduction of 10 fold. No, that hasn't happened. You would be nuts to claim that it has. That the populations of elk have declined due to wolves, bears, drought, cattle, hunting, and houses on their winter range is not debatable. But to blame wolves along is just nuts. It has nothing to do with liberalism - which isn't my cuppa, but that's too complicated for you to understand apparently, so you resort to childish behavior instead.

In the end, what you and I think is irrelevant. You got wolves. They ain't goin' away.

Brent