O.k. here goes

I got drawn for coes whitetail in southern Arizona

o.k. as I was saying!
I have a 30-06 and a 7mag. They both shoot about 1" at 100 yds.
I expect longer shots 400 yds or more.
Which rifle and which bullet.
I don't want to bloodshot the little critter. As of now I don't have a lazer(yet!).
How about some bullet/powder combos for both.
I have until november to practice and want to get comfortable soon. I can practice at these ranges about 1/2 days a week.
Also do you think my 3-9 leupold will be o.k.

I'm new to this place and the answers should be very useful to me.

thanks,
Matthew J.
p.s. I'll be popping p dogs in september!

Can anybody give me a recomendation on bullet weight and type for a thin skinned animal at 300 to 500 yards with a 7mm mag. I have never used a 7mm mag and am afraid of passthru and overkill,

Matthew J.

Matt, you are going to get pass-thru on these small deer; you need a blood trail anyway. For long range shooting in any 7mm the 139/140 grain bullet is optimum. Don't worry about bloodshot meat just put the animal down.

With few exceptions most of my 20+ years of deer hunting have been coues deer out of southern AZ. They are a challenging hunt for many reasons.

Either the 30-06 or the 7 mag will be fine for the hunt. I recommend you choose one over it's accuracy or your ability to shoot it better, than any power or trajectory issues. My brother has used a 30-06 for over a decade, and my father has used a 308 for 30 years. I load for both their rifles, the 30-06 I load 165 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips, and the 308 I load 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. I personally started off with a 30-30, then a 243, then a 30-06, then a 338 Win Mag, then a 257 Roberts, and soon 257 Roberts Ackley improved.

A coues deer is not at all hard to kill. It doesn't take a cannon to drop one. They are thin skinned and light boned.

A few things come to mind about S. AZ hunting, in no particular order...It's gonna be HOT down there. Make sure you have a good way to carry a lot of water with you. I use 2 GI issue 2 quart canteens that start off topped off every morning. I also bring a large 5 gallon insulated water jug and leave it in the jeep as a forward supply point, so the guys and me can hike only back to the jeep for water as upposed to all the way back to camp. Make sure you wear a good hat. Not a baseball cap, but a full rimmed soft hat, like a "boonie" or "bush" hat, to keep the sun off of your neck and ears. Field dress the deer as soon as it stops moving, get it open from the anus to the base of the neck immediately, and prop it open with a piece of stick to help get the heat out. As soon as you can get it hung in camp, get the hide off of it. We hang tarps around ours to keep the sun from shining on it at any time of the day. If enough of your camp tag out early, give serious consideration to some people leaving early to get the deer home and refridgerated. If the meat gets too hot, it will start to spoil quickly, and taste like sh*t. You never know what to expect for shot distance, I've shot some at under 50 yards, and had a few over 400 yards, you never know. Find the water, find the water, find the water! Never mind about a map saying there is a water hole, find out for yourself, most water holes are seasonal, and can be dry even though the map says one is there. Stake out a water hole very early before shooting light, and get ready for movement as the sun begins to crest the horizon. Deer drink at first and last light. Watch the canyon and arroyo bottoms for deer, it's cooler down there in the shade. Good glass is very important. The leupold should serve you well, I've used them and Nikon's Monarch for years. During the heat of the day you won't see much movement from the deer unless there are hunters running around "pushing" them. I have tagged deer several times in the heat of the day. If there is a lot of hunter movement, I would consider staying out all day at least opening day, and maybe the day after. The terrain is very rough and difficult. Lots of loose rock and top soil. Wear the best hiking boots you can get, and if new, make sure you break them in well before the hunt. That's all I can think of right now. Post back if you have more questions.

Unbeknown to most of the world, the Big Bend country near Marathon, Texas has quite a large number of Coues Deer, particularly in the Glass Mountains....

I hunted the Cap Yates ranch out of Marathon for years and shot a number of Coues deer...I found the 300 H&H with 200 gr. Noslers worked very well and did not bruise a lot of meat on the delicate deer like the 250 Savage or 270 did...It also handled the high winds much better than lighter bullets.

Based on that I would suggest that you use either the 7 mag. or 06 but carefully choose the correct bullet...the Noslers open up to a lesser cross section than conventional or other premium bullets so try a 160 or 175 gr. in the 7 Mag and/or a 150 or 165 in your 06...these bullets should meet your listed requirments to a tee.

One thing a Nosler will do is open up on the front portion regardless of the bullet weight and many premiums will not do that.

Ray I believe those are called Carmen Mtn Whitetail are they not.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

My buddy took a nice coues deer last year with a .270. The shot entered low and back behind the ribs and exited out the upper front (opposite) shoulder. It was a perfect pass-through quartering away-uphill. Only problem was the deer did not bleed a single drop, and that is no exageration. In fact, we had to work hard to find the holes prior to skinning. Luckily, the deer did not go far. He was shooting 140 or 150 grain partitions, and from the entry/exit wounds, I would say it didn't even expand. I'm going to look into the Nosler Ballistic Silver Tip hunting bullets a little closer as I think they have thinner cases, and may expand a little faster in such a light animal.

My .02.

Jason

I do appreciate all inputs from this thread. I hope they keep coming. I do appreciate the concern of not expanding and blasting too early. I would like penetration and organ damage and good bleeding.
This is why I asked the question and understand their is no clear answer.

Please more comments!

thanks,
Matthew J.

Both calibers are just fine. However, you might want to see how (and where) each rifle shoots at 300 yards and make your choice on that basis. (You might also consider which of the two rifles you'd rather haul around in the rugged Coues country.)

I live in Tucson and have hunted Coues for 20 years. There are some very serious Coues men in this town, and I've noticed that .300 Winchester Magnums are especially common among them. I've read that David Miller, a local custom rifle maker who has, I believe, more Coues entries in the Boone & Crockett book than any other living person, favors a .300 Weatherby Mag. So don't worry about being overgunned!

Also, for whichever caliber you choose, go with one of the heavier bullets since they tend to have better ballistic coefficients. I use 165 grain Nosler ballistic tips in a 30.06.

As for your concern about too much or too little damage, I say just pick out a good hunting bullet and get on with it. Our experience is with Nosler Ballistic Tips. Well-placed Nosler B.T.s stop Coues almost in their tracks. Most of our shots have been 250-300 yards.

Your rifles and scope are terrific. Now pick up a few boxes of Federal Premium ballistic tips in 165-180 grain for the .06, or 160-175 in the 7 Mag., and get to practicing. And not just at the bench; you'll want to shoot down into some canyons and upward toward some ridge tops, and practice estimating ranges or using a rangefinder.

If you really want to start preparing for your hunt, worry more about finding the bucks than shooting them. You'll need good quality optics - 10 power or better - and practice finding deer. The guys who are really serious about Coues (including myself) tend to use $1,000 German binoculars mounted on tripods, but we've found that 12-power Pentaxes (under $200) will find almost as many deer.

You haven't said which unit you drew, but if you E-Mail me off line, I might be able to tell you something about hunting Coues in your unit. I've hunted several of the units around here over the years.

Mark,
Yes, they are called Carmen Mt. Whitetail today but they are Coues deer.. They have been recognized as a seperate breed by some brilliant biologist and Larry Whosham (SP.)who takes credit for discovering them. They even have a class for them in SCI, This is a sham and a fraud, but of no real significance or importance I don't suppose.....Now this is the rest of the story!!

During the CCC camp days (Pre. Roosevelts save the country by putting folks back to work) My dad and my uncles and several other old timers trucked quite a number of Arizona Coues (pronounced Cows) whitetails to the Big Bend National park and released them, a Gov. project...

Many of the deer went to Mexico and a load or two was dumped near Alpine in the Glass Mountains..It was a local joke when these guy renamed the Hog Nosed Deer (thats what locals call them to this day)and raved about their new discovery...The little rascals bread like flys and took up residense in the Chinati Mts. So. of Marfa, Glass Mt.s near Alpine and the Park Hdq. area and some other areas in between..

The whitetail of the Carmen Mts. in Mexico is simply a whitetail deer and they have been there for every..I grew up hunting them in Mexico and they are no different than the whitetail that live around Del Rio, Sanderson, Rankin..why should they be there is nothing but a river to seperate them...I don't know if any of these whitetail species ever cross bred but I wouldn't be surprised if they did...I do know that the species in the Glass Mountains and Park Hdq,s is pure Coues...

And thats the way it was.

Ray, when I was in school we did a project out there in Alpine and the Coues did cross with the other deer. out there the most wierd looking ones are when they cross with a muledeer with the body and face of a W/T and the antlers of a muley, funny looking things. I had Dr.Larry as a Prof. and the story he tells is not much. He claims that it was the state that named them Carman Mt.W/T. I have to beleive him as that the man knows way more them I do.

Dr.Paul N.Nees
Wildlife Biologist