quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
...Jim's book. ...contains some great information based on actual scientific research rather than willy-nilly speculation.

Does he have a Chapter on the "abundance" of Black Panthers in the SE USA?

This is a topic that is the subject of hot and lengthy debates in Tx deer camps. Presently, our lease of some 600 ac has a resident population of at least 100 deer, with a buck:doe ratio around 1:2 This year, as always for the past 5 years I've hunted there, we have an abundance of yearling (18-mo old) spikes which weigh an average of 98 lbs. I have had as many as 7 spikes in view at one time (one blind out of 4 on the ranch). So, we have a bunch of them--and some this year are nutrition related, as we are in the second year of a seriously dry spell. So, we try to shoot the spikes and the mature 8-pt bucks (3.5 yrs and up). Over the past 5 years, this has changed the normal buck seen from 7s & 8s to 9s & 10s. At least that is what we attribute it to.

Kerrville Wildlife Mgt Area (http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/hunt/wma/find_a_wma/list/?id=12§ion=deerPens) has done many years of serious research into the "once a spike, never a trophy" thought, by penning their deer and saving antlers year after year from the breeding buck. They have set after set of antlers (6 to 10 sets) from their bucks--and their conclusion (and I believe yours too if you saw their evidence) is that spikes should be culled, whether 18 mos old or mature deer. They may become a shooter but not likely a trophy.

I also read somewhere in an article by Dr. Dave Samuel (I think) that the genes for antler size are carried by does, and not the bucks. Not sure where that conclusion came from, but if true, when you shoot a doe, you may have shot the potential new record.

So--you have to talk it over with your fellow hunters, so that if you pass the young 12" spread 8 or 10-pt to grow up, they won't shoot it. And, at least here in Tx, you have to get your landowner or lease manager on board. Not the easiest of tasks, as many ranchers are also cattlemen (read production-minded, not whitetail management minded) and when you begin to talk about shooting does, they have visions of no deer next year, as their cattle experience has them keeping those breeder cows to produce calves for market.

I keep seeing the term "great buck" as a reference to antlers.

To me a great buck is:
a deer that survives to adulthood and reproduces
a deer that gains respectable body weight.
and most importantly, one that winds up in my freezer.

how large it's annual change of headgear gets is not strictly relevant except with regards to impressing other deer or hunters with some sort of childish attraction to large antlers.

If you are thinking that "Allan just doesn't get it" you are absolutely right.
but whats equally right is that none of you "get it" either...

What is it you don't get? well let me tell you...

The thing is I've met people who were stunned that people actually EAT deer, THEY thought that
people only shot them for that fancy hatrack they wear and for the simple joy of killing something, they were facinated with the idea that deer were edible!

No these people weren't the sharpest knife in the kitchen, but weren't as dumb as a stump either...

Now before one of you "Horn crazy maniacs" (as you are perceived by anti-hunters) starts to say that those people who believe we hunters are "horn crazy maniacs" look at this entire discussion above and think outside your own narrow thought paths... and see how people who are NON hunters would regard this entire discussion, Rise to this challenge, actually THINK about how non-hunters perceive us
as a group... consider that discussions about "managing" deer for "genetic improvements"
(judged by primarily by antler growth) is GIVING THEM yet another strong arguement to use against us all.

that may not be the entire truth but we are judged in the court of public opinion and
in that venue perception is no different from reality and easily overshadows any deeper truths...

If you REALLY want to think this way then understand that you are digging the grave of your hobby with your own sweat and your own shovel, and I am deeply offended that I'm stuck in that same grave with you and I'm just trying to stop you from digging the hole that I am standing in with you any deeper!

I see this priority for antlers has brought us a set of hunting regs in PA that require specific antler minimum sizes... like antlers are all that matter... I am distressed to see that to some of you they do.

How about breeding for body weight?

I'd rather have a 225lb spike than a 175lb 6point.

AllanD

Interesting thread.

Where I hunt in Nebraska, it is mainly for meat. But I do get a chance to harvest some decent bucks. Last year, I shot a nice one antlered buck. He had lost it in a fight, and had the scars to prove it. While we were dragging him out, we saw another buck with one antler.

This year, I also shot a buck. He was big bodied, but small antlers. Two other guys passed on him earlier, but since it was for the freezer I shot him. Turned out his antlers weren't small, but broken on both sides!

I have been wondering if the herd isn't missing some vitamins or something.

quote:

Originally posted by AD:
I keep seeing the term "great buck" as a reference to antlers.

To me a great buck is:
a deer that survives to adulthood and reproduces
a deer that gains respectable body weight.
and most importantly, one that winds up in my freezer.

Hey AD, Are you implying that HUGE antlers and HUGE physical sizes are typically not found together in the same Deer?

quote:

If you are thinking that "Allan just doesn't get it" you are absolutely right.
but whats equally right is that none of you "get it" either...

What is it you don't get? well let me tell you...

I’m still reading, but have no doubt that - " I " get it.

quote:

consider that discussions about "managing" deer for "genetic improvements"
(judged by primarily by antler growth) is GIVING THEM yet another strong arguement to use against us all.

Now I clearly see why you said " you " don’t get it. From what I’ve seen and experienced when dealing with THEM, it makes no difference at all what we say or do. The ARFs all have an agenda that is totally out of step with reality.

No one will ever see me substitute Politically Correct terms for killing or hunting. And I welcome the ARFs to confront me face to face about it – at any time.

quote:

that may not be the entire truth but we are judged in the court of public opinion

I don’t live my life cowering from fools nor do I police my verbage from the proper hunting and killing terms. I don't harvest Deer, I kill them.

quote:

If you REALLY want to think this way then understand that you are digging the grave of your hobby with your own sweat and your own shovel, and I am deeply offended that I'm stuck in that same grave with you and I'm just trying to stop you from digging the hole that I am standing in with you any deeper!

Feel free to cower down to the ARFs(filling in the holes I dig), but I have no intention of ever changing my thoughts on hunting and killing based on what some loonatic believes.

quote:

I see this priority for antlers has brought us a set of hunting regs in PA that require specific antler minimum sizes... like antlers are all that matter... I am distressed to see that to some of you they do.

How about breeding for body weight?

They are not mutually exclusive as you seem to believe. Obviously you "don't get it" just as you stated above.

quote:

I'd rather have a 225lb spike than a 175lb 6point.

I’d rather have a gutted 226 pound 12 point,that I killed.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills.

Believe what you want to believe and act how you want to act, I'm suggesting that with things that WILL be taken out
of context that silence is better thanfeeding someone lines to use against you.

I was right, you don't get it.

Your talk of "cowering" proves it, being cautious
about what you say (in speech or print) isn't cowering.

It's denying your enemy the very air that they breath.

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
...I was right, you don't get it....

Hey AD, No, I do get it.

You can cower from using correct terminology when it comes to KILLING because "they" may not like to hear it. Allowing "them" to control "your" thoughts says they have already scared you into submission.

I do understand that " I " won't have some ARF dictating how " I " think, nor how " I " talk.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot KILLS!

WV boy here too, saw one killed out of Jackson Co. that had an ingrown antler on one side that came back through above the jaw...Weird!

ElKabong

The problem is, we do need to be careful what we say. The anti's will grab any thing and take it out of context. We don't need to give them more ammo.

Well AD, looks like you have another like-minded soul in NEJack. I would ask you all how you possibly think ANYTHING we Hunters/Shooters say could possibly be used against us, but then you all would have to say things you believe is wrong to say. And also impossible to think up ANYTHING that the PETA fools aren't already aware of.

So the two of you choose to allow some group(s) of whackos to control your thoughts and language concerning Killing Game/Varmints. You all might as well both sell off your firearms, become vegans and hang around with the other hillery lovers.

quote:

Originally posted by ElKabong:
WV boy here too, saw one killed out of Jackson Co. that had an ingrown antler on one side that came back through above the jaw...Weird!

ElKabong

Ouch! Sounds painful.

Maybe he was living too close to the power plant.

I got it, I got it, but I just don't get it!!!!!!!!!

Turn the dam dogs out and shoot what ever the hell comes out!!!!!!!!!

Here is a buck I shot last year. He was not eating well for obvious reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
They changed the hunting regs in Texas this year so now you can shoot anterless, a buck with a inside spread of 13" or greater, or a spike. And they upped the bag limits to four deer in all the counties I'm concerned with. The reason they did this I'm told is to "shoot out the bottom end of the gene pool" so we'll have some bigger deer to shoot in a few years.
I certainly hope so because it sure has pained me to ignore the four and six pointers I've seen this year. I don't get to hunt nearly as often as I'd like to and in times passed those would have been a good find.

aa

Jason:

The primary reason the TX Parks and Wildlife changed the regulations is to improve the age structure of the deer herd. Most of the deer that you'll pass are good 1 1/2 or not so good 2 1/2 year olds. The initial responses found much higher hunter satisfaction in the counties in Central Texas where this system was done on a trial basis after a year or so. The fact that shooting spikes gives hunters less reason to
"cheat" on the 13 inch inside spread rule and probably improves the trophy potential of the deer herd is a secondary consideration IMO.

Back to the basic topic of this thread. Anyone who thinks that all deer genetics are equal is ignoring reality. Therefore, if all genetics aren't equal, it should be possible to improve the general level of antler growth in an area by selectively shooting some sub-optimal deer. Whether this is actually possible in a NON-high FENCED situation is the crux of the matter.

The general research at this point is somewhat conflicting, but leads to the conclusion that it is probably not possible to improve the herd by culling. I suggest that this result is mostly because it is not possible to effectively control the "Bubba" factor. Skipping that, Texas researchers have IN THEIR OPINION proved that many spikes are not going to grow as big a rack as deer that are 6 to 10 points as year and a half old. However, there are numerous variables in the wild which significantly alter the possibility of accurately selecting the "cull" spikes versus the poor nutrition/late birth spikes. A knowledgeable shooter can do so to a greater extent by using his head and observing a specific spike deer as well as the general level of antler qualtiy in a given year combined with his knowledge of the range conditions. In short, it is possilbe, but difficult. Will there be mistakes made? Obviously, but the trend will be in the right direction IF this is done by everyone in a large enough area. THAT is a very big "IF".

There are other factors as well, if you're actively managing your deer herd by shooting lesser quality bucks, then you MUST shoot many does, and it is preferable to start with the older ones. A whitetail deer breeder of monster bucks was just interviewed in "Texas Trophy Hunter" magazine and he believes, as a result of generations of contained observed breeding results that about 65% of the antler size potential is from the doe. Obviously, that 65% is just a guesstimate on his part, but he is making his living on deer and he is not uninformed.

Finally, given that the dominant buck (or any buck for that matter) in an unconfined area will only breed about 6 does MAXIMUM unless your buck/doe ratio is REALLY skewed, it seems intuitively obvious (which is not always correct) that it helps to remove bucks AND DOES that appear to have less potential than others. What you'd like is for the dominant bucks to breed more than six and the smaller ones to breed fewer.

Again, does culling help? Probably.

I've covered a lot of territory, and most of it very lightly, but IMO, shooting lesser quality antlered deer, which doesn't mean just spikes, or just any spike, cannot help but improve the herd IN THE VERY LONG RUN, if followed on a large enough scale to have any significant impact. It is obvious but being obvious doesn't mean that it can be done in the field. Don't forget the "Bubba" factor.

On one place where I hunt there has been a buck we have come to know as "tanglehorn". He has one spike, and the other antler is turned over his head and grows almost to his opposite ear. He has been around for at least 3 years. I have tried to cull him but he shows up out of range during bow season and only occassionally during gun season. We havent seen him this gun season and hope he met his demise this year.

I live in north central Texas and have watched the recent changes in hunting regs in south/central texas with mixed feelings. I understand the thought is to improve the buck herd thru management and I agree lots of young bucks are killed. I also know that some hunters dont have the opportunities, experience, money or time to hunt at length for a buck that fits regulations. I feel that eventually all of Texas will have the same buck restrictions and I will abide with them, but with mixed emotions. I guess its that none of us likes change and we tend to resist it.

Eterry