Just returned from Montana. Shot a nice pronghorn, but bullet performance was horrid. .270 Wby Mag at about 350 yds. with a 130 gr. NP at an advertised 3400 fps muzzle vel. (Weatherby factory load). A finisher from close range was required, and the animal was able to run after a full hit in the shoulder. The bullet disintegrated after about 2 1/2" penetration. Anybody else have problems? Too hot for the bullet? Too light of a bullet? Comments please. Thanks.

Based on the information provided, my guess is that velocity is the culprit, not the bullet.

I would not blame the Partition as they are some of the best bullets out there. Myself I would think that 3400 fps was a little on the fast side. I have taken Elk, Whitetail, and Mule deer with various partitions and love them. I would suggest not to bring in the verdict on a Premium Bullet like the Nosler Partition on just one shot. Flukes can happen with any bullet on the market, both good and bad. Myself I would say most of this was caused by the shot placement and the angle in which it hit the animal. I guess what I'm trying to say is that any premium bullet might have done the same thing given the same set of circumstances. Just my $.02 worth and I want you to know that I'm not saying your are a bad shot but S_ _ t Happens.

How can velocity be to blame at 350 Yards?
Without looking at a table I can bet it had similar velocity as a .270 win @ 250 Yards.
What would then be expected from a .270 win @ 50 yards? Weird things happen that can't be explained and nothing is perfect. By the way, what was the damage on the close in shot?

The finisher at 40-45 yds took out a rib lodged in the far shoulder--probably 50% retention, though I didnt weigh it. Jacket material everywhere. Thats not as worrying to me given the velocity and the range, although I still dont like it. I'm concerned that maybe I got bad loads, way too hot, or that for some some reason the bullet "uncorked" and hit tumbling. This was no clean entry wound on the first shot, but a damned shallow mess. True, shit happens, but it always seems to happen to me!!!

I was just about to ask about the look of the entry wound. Your set up sounds like a terrific antelope rig to me. My first thought was that the bullet may have hit some grass just before it hit the buck.

"At what point in the animal's death did the bullet fail?"

Nickudu...almost no chance of it hitting grass. Grass was sparse and 6" tall. Also, I was on a bluff about 60-75 ft elevated over the animal. I know Im coming down hard on the Nosler, but it should have poked both shoulders without any problem. Im pissed because it took us an hour to let him stiffen up and lay down, and I hate unclean kills. While it mightve been a fluke, its not a risk I'll be taking in the future.

Where did the first shot hit?
An hour to lay down after the first shot
does not sound like a boiler room hit to
me.
Shooting at 40-45 yards with that speed I
think most partion,corelok,etc..bullets would
come apart.
And I dont think speed goats need solid bullets.
Jeff

Sounds like too much gun for the animal getting killed. I've never needed more than one shot on anthing that I ever used a partition bullet on, which was usually my 30-06. Bloodshot meat was minimal as well. Of course that old worn out cartridge doesn't quite look as impressive or unstoppable as those Weatherby cartridges. Then again, they don't walk away either.

Hmmmm...not very often I hear something bad about Nosler. I am trying their 160 gr Partition in my 7mm Rem and have been impressed with the results thus far, even if I have yet to shoot an animal with them.

I'd say yours was a fluke. I can't even begin to hypothesis what went wrong. I doubt if it was velocity at that range and you are right--it should have exited. Antelope aren't that big. Before you go ape shit against Nosler, try contacting them and asking for a possible explanation. Have you shot animals with this load before? If not, I'd suggest you give it another chance.

Nother question...what are you going to use if you don't use Nosler? If the Partition blows up, traditional soft points are a no-go. You could go with the bonded bullets like the A-frame but they are expensive and have the external ballistics of a brick...

At 350 yards you should have no problem with high velocity. I have used partitions in a wide variety of calibers and on a variety of game with excellent results. I once drove a 270 cal. 130 grain all the way through a bull Elk. Don't know what went wrong in your case but don't sell the Partition short. It is a fine bullet.

I would also think it a fluke if your finisher @ closer range did not fragment. I shot an antelope, a couple of years ago, w/ a 7MM, 160gr NP @ 3200fps @ about 120yds. The bullet went thru both shoulders & left a quarter size hole w/ little blood shot meat.
Like prev. said, sometimes s--t happens.

[ 10-18-2002, 04:32: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

Tough to diagnose bullet failure on the behaviour of one bullet. I've used Partitions in various calibers on various game, and when I've done my part they've done theirs'. I would chalk it up to a fluke without more evidence. - Dan

Sounds like someone accidentally put Ballistic Tips in your box of Partitions.

Just a couple of weeks ago I shot a 350+ lbs. black bear at 50 yards with my .270 Win using 130 grain Partitions at 3,120 fps. The first shot was in the chest (a few inches below his chin) as he was facing me and due to the angle it exited at his groin. My 2nd shot was at the same distance broadside, took out both lungs and exited. That bear only went 10 feet from where I first shot him and was dead by the time I covered the 50 yards to get to him. I guess that you could say I am a fan of the 130 grain .277" Partitions.

Tim

It wouldn't hurt to pull another bullet from the same box of factory loads and look to see if the box label matched the bullet.

A couple of years ago, I had a Nosler Partition fail to penetrate on a deer at close range from my 25-06. It was a 120 grain bullet reloaded to 3100 fps. The bullet came apart inside the animal and nothing exited on a quartering 40 yard shot. Having never seend a Partition that failed to exit, I called Nosler and found out the bullets I had were from a bad lot and Nosler had problems with them coming apart. They sent me a new box of bullets along with a hat at no charge. I guess my message is that perhaps you had a simular failure and maybe those factory rounds were old stock. Anyway, call Nosler and let them know about it. I have used Partitions for many years and will continue to do so. They are superb bullets.

I've killed 5 or 6 elk with the 130gr. Nosler Partition, about half the time on broad side lung shots they exit. Just what bullet would you use if the N.P. can't cut it on lopes?
Animals must be getting toughter nowadays .

Pete

Just like to echo the thoughts of many who have already posted here. The Nosler partition failure is definitely an abberration, not the normal performance we have come to rely on. I have been shooting Partitions since 1963 or 64. They were made from bronze rod at that time, drilled from both ends and with a machined groove in the bullet around where the Partition was. I have never had a Nosler Partition let me down, and have taken shots from any angle, even on Moose, with the full expectation that the bullet will reach the vitals. Always worked for me. I once shot a big cow elk as she was running straight away [don't recommend this shot, but last day of hunt, raining, etc, etc.]I had a 7mmSTW with the Nosler 160 Partition at 3350 fps. The shot was about 150 meters. The bullet broke the left hip at the very inside edge, and penetrated clear to the brisket. It weighs 104 grains. Elk went nowhere but down, very little meat loss. I broke both shoulders of a yearling Bull moose with a 120 partition out of the 257 Roberts. I have broken the facing shoulder of several moose with various Partitions and always had them penetrate the lungs after. Most even exited after this. I have actually recovered about 25% of the Partitions I have shot into game. The rest have all exited. I guess what I'm trying to say is, these bullets are reliable, and if one failed, I would say that is very unusual. Regards, Eagleye.

Your choice of cartridges on such a small bodied thin skinned game animal and choice of bullet weight are most likely the cause of this failure. High velocity thin jacketed bullets are not a good choice on any big game animal. Even though the Prong Horn is small in body and very thin skinned it is considered a big game animal. You were overgunned and it is possible the Nosler Partiton bullets were faulty. You should have much better results choosing a cartirdge that produces velocities around or just under 3000 fps when hunting antelope. Had you used a heavy bullet in your Weatherby magnum it probably would have punched a neat bullet sized hole in the antelope and not mushroomed at all. Velocity has it's place, but in my view, that added velocity
is of no value to any hunter using the wrong cartridge and bullet for the purpose intended. Antilope are not known as hard animals to bring down. Less velocity will allow the bullet to pass through the animal slower and give it more time to expand and release it's energy inside the game animal. If I were to choose an antelope cartridge and bullet weight it would be the 25-06 with the 115 grain bullet. The 257 Roberts with the 115 grain bullet. The 243 with the 100 grain bullet all sighted 3" high at 100 yards. Do your home work and don't be fooled into thinking that that your high velocity super magnum will do the same job on any game animal your hunting. Velocity has it's place but not in all hunting applications. In the good old days the slow moving 400 plus grain bullet from the 45-70 cartridge would perform flawlessly at extreme ranges on buffalo.

It is the same senario as my Elk hunting friend shooting his Bull Elk at laser ranged 400 yards and punched five bullet sized holes in the bull. Not one bullet mushroomed as it should have from his Weatherby 300 magnum. He did get the Elk but bullet performance was nonexistant. The bullet should release most of it's energy inside the animal, not on the hide or in the ground on the other side of the animal.

Everything you describe sounds within good parameters to me. I'd take some of those same rounds and punch some paper at that same range. See if you see anything irregular on paper.

Unless you see something weird after the range work, blow it off.

Two and a half inch penetration under the conditions you mention makes no sense. Same round under the same scenario should equal a very quick kill.

Having said that, I personally would not hunt again with that box of shells, or that same load. When I'm hunting I want nothing to be in my mind other than absolute confidence in what I'm about to do.

This may sound elementary, but I never put the cross hairs on an animals shoulder. I go for both lungs, behind the shoulder, on every shot. I never hit anything more durable than a rib.

I don't think that explain what happened to you though. You had some other gremlin at work.

Reloader66-The faster a bullet is travelling the more it expands period.If a bullet fails to expand it is not because the bullet had too much velocity.The old wives tale about a slower bullet having more time to expand is just that -an old wives tale.The only problem you can encounter with very high velocity is a bullet overexpanding and coming apart.

Reloader66,
Note that the range was 350 yards, thereby negating the premise of your post. Cengals' choice of caliber and bullet is about as good as it gets, IMHO. There is some variable involved which will be difficult to pin down.

Thanks all for your various responses. I chose this load for its flat trajectory. As for paper, this same lot has punched clean holes all the way along. Obviously pronghorn dont generally need a lot of killing, but they take a lot more when the entry wound is 2 1/2" across and 2 in. deep. The basic consensus is that this was a fluke, and that is probably correct, as I have never had problems with the NP before.

Ill e-mail both Nosler and Weatherby and give them my tale of woe and see what comes of it.

Thanks all

Cengel,

Nosler (like most manufacturers) can make a bullet that doesn't behave as it is designed.

Try the Swift Scirocco; it's streamlined and has a bonded core. I doubt it will explode on contact.

George

You sure this wasn't a Nosler Ballistic Tip?

I've used 130 ballistic tips in a 270 with a muzzle velocity of 3100fps, shot deer as close as 15ft, never recovered a bullet.

I use the Nosler Partition for my .257 Wby and load the 115 and 120 grain bullets to approx. 3500 fps. My grandson hit a 170 lb dressed weight Whitetail Buck last year at 80 yards in the brisket, with the deer looking at him. The bullet penetrated the length of the deer, lodging in the rear of a ham under the hide. Of course it callapsed in his tracks. It lost the front section completely, that portion behind the partition still intack. A perfect performance for the bullet in my opinion. We all agree that some bullets break all the rules of logic on occasion. You stated a full hit in the shoulder, could there have been an slight angle, that might have caused a not so square hit. Good shooting.

Well, I am afraid that I have to agree that Nosler may have some bad bullets out there.

I am an avid Nosler fan and still believe in them, but also saw some terrible performance this fall on antelope.

My buddy and I went to Wyoming in September to hunt antelope near Rawlins. We took two .25 caliber rifles. Mine was a 25-06 and his a 25-284. Both rifles were shooting Nosler 100 grain Partitions just a few feet one way or another of 3400 fps at the muzzle.

Now keep in mind that myself and my buddies have shot quite a pile of game with this bullet in 25-06 and .257 Weatherby rifles. We have several that have been recovered from some wild hogs that weighed over 300 pounds. They looked like a Nosler advertisement, with nice mushrooms and good weight retention. (However, most gave complete penetration)

Anyway, my buddy and I shot a couple of real nice pronghorns. I recovered a bullet from mine and it was a classic Nosler Partition. It was bulging the hide out on the off side and was nicely mushroomed and retained 65% of its original weight.

However, my buddy's bullets simply blew up on the surface of his antelope. The first shot was nearly head on at about 150 yards, good shot placement, right at the neck, shoulder junction.
The animal went down but got back up, the next shot was square on the shoulder, animal down and apparently finished.

We approached the animal and it got up. It was shot at about 50 yards and this bullet went right through the ribcage but did not cause much internal damage. The final shot was into the other shoulder at about 50 yards.

I have never seen bigger mess!! Except for shot number three which almost seemed to not expand at all, those Partitions all simply surface blew! They caused nasty, damned ugly surface wounds but did not get inside the body cavity. We were very dissapointed in the bullet performance to say the least. The only time I have seen such a poor bullet performance was while shooting coyotes with the 85 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip in my 25-06. (Same deal, square shoulder shots and the darned things did not even get through the shoulder of a coyote for heavens sake. They had to be shot again to finsh them off.)

So, why did mine perform as expected and John's blow up??? I for sure do not know. I need to compare lot numbers of the bullets but have not done so to date.

I have no idea what happened here.

R F

Sounds like there is a bad lot out there to me.
cengel,R Flowers
If you can post the lot numbers of the respective bad lots. It would be interesting to see what happens to these lots in wet newspaper or phone books compared to R's good lot.

A Partition... blowing up? Dont hear of that very often. I am under the impression its the 3400 fps. But still, the NP is a very sturdy bullet, the only thing that I could think of that would force one to explode would be way excessive velocity.

I had an experience very like that on an elk a couple of years ago. .264 with 140 NP. Bull had been crippled but still moving pretty good. About a 75 yard shot that hit him in the shoulder knuckle. The bulet shredded the joint but failed to make it in to the chest cavity at all. Velocity was about 3250 at the muzzle. That is the only NP in 30 years that failed badly that I know of. None since that time and several more elk were shot with that lot of bullets.

I have no explanation for it.

This is my suggestion.

1. Pull one of the bullets after removing it from the case and file it in half. Carve the shape of the bullet into a piece of wood and drive a finishing nail where the bullets base will lie. File towards the base. We need to know if they are Partitions!

2. Fire a shot into water filled jugs. It takes about nine 1/2 gallon cartons to stop a bullet like that. It's ok to do it at shorter range as the base of the bullet should still be intact. Don't put the cartons on something good like a nice board or table as the force will break it. Just line them up on the ground.

Get back to us.

Just to add that the rest of that bullet may show up later this winter in a roast.

[ 10-19-2002, 20:04: Message edited by: Don Martin29 ]

according to my Oehler balistic program a 130 nosler started at 3400 would be going 2605 at 350 yards.I cant imagine a partition blowing up at 2600 fps.especially on an antelope.not saying it didnt but I bet you wont see it happen again.

I'll stick with my original post about being too much gun, but one thing that everyone has neglected to consider is what is the RPM of that bullet when it makes contact with your animal?

cengel, what is the rate of twist on your barrel? A fast twist will obviously speed up the RPM at which the bullet is moving regardless of initial, or downrange velocity. A projectile moving at 2500 FPS, with an RPM of lets say 15,000 RPM, is going to retain weight better than the same projectile moving at an equal rate of speed, but with an RPM of 30,000. It's something that's commonly overlooked, but obviously plays a major role in weight retention and killing effectiveness.
But, all the bs and technical talk aside, partition bullets are the best around. I've used them for years with absolutely zero failures. Being within 35 miles of their plant doesn't hurt either, as I can pick up their factory seconds for half the cost that you fellers have to pay at your local sporting goods store.
I had the pleasure about a year ago of touring their plant, and it was quite interesting. Not as hightech as I expected, but quite intriguing just the same.
Don't give up on the Nosler, you'd be kicking yourself later for it.

It seems Nosler sometimes fail on very high velocity, But most of the time they are very reliable, a lott of people use them and they seem to work fine, the ones I have used worked fine

I would like to float a theory...

Maybe Nosler had a batch of partitions go out that had bad metallurgy. If the copper used was of the wrong formulation and BRITTLE, that would explain the bullet failures reported in this thread.

...just a theory.