Re: 165 gr. Nosler Ballistic tip for Elk in a 300 WM

19 December 2004, 14:39

If the 200 doesn't kill better than a 165, why do they bother making them??? Just think, less dies, less materials, and so forth. Why not contact Hornady, Sierra, Speer, et al and tell them they're wasting their time.
But the truth is the difference in trajectory at reasonable hunting distances is mostly smoke and mirrors while the carry up is greater. Giving you a bit of margin on angling shots or bad angles.

19 December 2004, 14:51

stubblejumper

Quote:

If the 200 doesn't kill better than a 165, why do they bother making them???

Because people like you will buy them.As long as people "believe" that they need them,and they are willing to buy them, the companies will supply them

19 December 2004, 14:59

Neverflinch

So is it your stance that there is no situation when a 200gr. .30 cal. bullet is better than a 165gr.?

19 December 2004, 18:33

stubblejumper

Quote:

So is it your stance that there is no situation when a 200gr. .30 cal. bullet is better than a 165gr.?

It is my stance that there is no situation where a 200gr .308" bullet is required.Bullets such as the 168gr tsx and 165gr failsafe penetrate as good or better than even the 200gr partition.I use 180gr .308" bullets myself because they are more accurate in my rifles.If I feel that a 200gr or heavier bullet is required,I move up to the .338" bullets.

19 December 2004, 19:09

Neverflinch

Quote:

Bullets such as the 168gr tsx and 165gr failsafe penetrate as good or better than even the 200gr partition

That's not comparing apples to apples. A 200 grain tsx or any bullet for that matter will have better penetration when compared to the same bullet of lesser weight, which I am sure you already know. Provided the loads are on the same end of the min/max scale.

Quote:

If I feel that a 200gr or heavier bullet is required,I move up to the .338" bullets.

Many people do not buy a different gun for every task like some of us. For the people who want to make the most of what they have, there are several instances when a 200gr bullet would be more qualified for the task at hand. Do you not agree?

19 December 2004, 19:27

stubblejumper

Quote:

A 200 grain tsx or any bullet for that matter will have better penetration when compared to the same bullet of lesser weight, which I am sure you already know

Not according to the june 1998 edition of handloader magazine.They compared a large variety of 180gr .308" bullets for penetration, but they also compared the speer grand slams in 150,165,180 and 200gr weights to determine the effect of bullet weights of premium bullets of the same construction.The 150gr bullets penetrated slightly less but the average penetration for the 165gr,180gr and 200gr bullets was almost exactly the same.

Quote:

For the people who want to make the most of what they have, there are several instances when a 200gr bullet would be more qualified for the task at hand.

If I am not totally comfortable that the 165gr or 180gr failsafe or tsx will do the job I will not use a .308" bullet.That being said the .308" tsx or failsafe are more than capable of cleanly taking any game in north america.

19 December 2004, 19:39

Neverflinch

Quote:

Since both are going to exit anyways it will make no difference.

Really? I've shot Nilgai in south Texas and rarely if ever have I seen a bullet exit. I've seen a 550lb. bull shot broadside at 80 yards with a .300 win and a 180gr xlc that didn't exit. Might have clipped the shoulder, but.....

20 December 2004, 05:29

beemanbeme

"because people like me will buy them"

ROFLMAO...... You will find the real fools are the ones that believe all of the Madison Ave hype about the "magic" bullets that are on the market. Why do you think these pages are replete with tales of "bullet failure"?

Sorry, SJ, I believe I'll subscribe to the empirical wisdom gathered by hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of hunters the world over. I do agree with your "a bigger hole is better" statement but that's not what we're talking about here.

My point, quite simply, is why grope around in all of the Madison Ave bullshit when you can start out with a bullet that is unquestionably up to the task? You say you like the 180's in .308 calibre. I would imagine that a 30-06 with a 180gr bullet has accounted for more big game, at least in the Americas, than all of the others combined. But why a 180? Why not a 130? You say your choice is based solely on accuracy. Sure, you bet.

By the way, how, in that frozen-assed back-water where you live, are you able to determine what I am like?

21 December 2004, 02:16

beemanbeme

SJ, you keep harping on the superior accuracy of the lighter bullet in your rifle. Can you say exactly what is the difference in group size between your bullet and say a Grand Slam or a Partition? A 200gr GS or NP? It would have to be considerable to my way of thinking before I would abandon the greater weight.

21 December 2004, 02:30

jorge

SJ: I never stated the BTs don't work, just that they limit your options as you pointed out yourself in "picking your shots." I think we can agree that Partitions hold up better. jorge

21 December 2004, 07:25

stubblejumper

Quote:

Can you say exactly what is the difference in group size between your bullet and say a Grand Slam or a Partition? A 200gr GS or NP? It would have to be considerable to my way of thinking before I would abandon the greater weight.

1/2" groups for the 180gr vs 1-1/2" groups for the 200 gr.Triple the size.It adds up to a lot on longer shots.

21 December 2004, 10:43

Battle River

After seeing 8-10 head of big game killed by the 165 gr 30-06 Btip, I would not use it on elk in heavy timber where shots were close, The recovered bullets from this unit showed excellent expansion but ranges were all 200 yards. If Swathhopper is comfortable with his rig, and if Nosler has actually made them better over the years, then the 180 Btip would be fine for the medium-long range application. I will never complain about the logic of using what works, especially when you have the shock factor of 3400f/s and can shoot. I do come apart when someone choses a magnum, then cannot shoot- whereupon I come unglued.

Just to show how different some rifles are, I had no better than 2.5" groups from the 165BT 300WM combo, but had .9" groups from the Nosler Part in my pre64 300WM. As excected, this combo has worked perfectly on two elk/2 deer though the BT would have done the same job.

I am lucky that My go-to units group Partitions as well or better than BT and therefore its what I use in many/but not all of my rifles.

SJ and CNelson I assume you two are that bitchy for several reasons

You-your spouses or both have had periods/Pms

Its -28 windchill and you cannot get outside to shoot

Your at work and cannot fondle your custom rifles

Its about 250 days to elk season

BR