The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting 7mm Rem vs. Wby MagsGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| 7mm Rem vs. Wby Mags | Login/Join |
| one of us |
The 7mmwby offers about 50 to 75 fps extra depending on the individual rifle.For that bit of extra speed the price of both loaded rounds and brass is much higher.If you want more performance from a 7mm try the 7mmstw as it offers 200 to 250 fps more than the 7mm rem mag with brass and loads priced cheaper than the weatherby products. | |||
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| one of us |
I'd go with the 7mm Weatherby because- 1)You git just a tad more velocity That being said,my 7mm Rem Mag kills things pretty darn dead,and I doubt 75 FPS more is going to flatten the trajectory much. Just MHO. ------------------ | |||
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| <Don Martin29> |
"Desert Cammo Stock" !!!!!!!!!!!!!! "good grief" said Al Biesen to Jack O'Connor "did you read that?" | ||
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| one of us |
You won't get any more velocity from the 7mm Weatherby than you can get from the 7mm RemMag IF you handload.The Remington case actually holds a bit more powder than the Wtby case.I think the 26" vs. 24" barrel thing is a Weatherby marketing thing to boost the performance of their cartridge over the Remington.I think both can benefit from a 26" barrel.If my 7 RemMag were 26" I would have had it reamed to STW long ago.I'm with stubblejumper,if you want real 7mm performance get the STW...or the UltraMag. | |||
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| one of us |
I think you have settled on a heck of a nice rifle for the uses you describe. In regard to caliber choice, you won't tell much difference, I can assure you. I have owned both, the 7mm Rem Mag and the 7mm Wby Mag and I prefer the Weatherby version; but admit there is damned little difference. I feel strongly that some of the Weatherby cartridges NEED the 26 inch barrels to get the potential out of the cartridge. I own a 300 Win Mag and a 300 Weatherby Mag, both with 24 inch barrels. There is not two cents difference in them. My friends who own 300 Weatherbys with the 26 inch barrel get a fair amount more speed out of them, though. Having said that, I feel the 7mm versions (both Rem and WBY) do not benefit much from a 26 inch tube. I own a Remington 700 Classic chambered for 7mm WBY Mag and it has a 24 inch barrel. It does all that anyone could reasonably ask of that caliber. Conversely, I worked up loads for a custom rifle a friend had built last year with a 26 inch barrel. It is chambered for the 7mm Rem Mag and was pretty slow in my opinion. One thing I can tell you for sure is that if you are going to shoot factory loads, then you will get a heck of a lot more out of the Weatherby. I have dissapointed a LOT of guys who own 7mm Rem Mag rifles and shoot factory ammo when we run them over my chronograph. The 7mm WBY ammo may cost more, but it is loaded closer to the potential of the cartridge and will give you more velocity!! I guess I would suggest getting the Weatherby cartridge just because it is a Weatherby rifle and should be chambered for one of their offerings. And hey, lots of folks own 7mm Rem Mags, not everyone has a 7mm WBY, right? Good Luck, R F | |||
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| <Dan in Wa> |
A friend was at the gun club a couple years ago chronying some loads in his 7 Wetherby. Now this guy likes to live on the edge and loads as hot as his rifle will take but he knows what he is doing. Uses lots of H 870 IMR 7828 etc. Some manuals don't list loads for the super slow powders. Anyway a couple guys show up with the then new 7mm STW and a couple boxes of factory Remington ammo. Well when offered to shoot it over the chrony this guy was more than happy....until he read the printout. His rifle was shooting slower than the handloaded 7mm Wea. Of course the guy said the chrony was screwed up. If you can get the Wea. in a 26" bbl. that would be my choice.....in either caliber. | ||
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one of us |
If you are getting a Weatherby rilfe, I would go w/ the 7mm Wby. Yes, you can handload a 7Rem. to the limit & get close to a 7Wby. but then again you can handload the 7Wby & get close to 7STW. I have a Ruger #1S that used to be a 7Rem. & had it rechambered to 7mm Dakota. I like the unbelted case & accuracy is more than I need for big game. Yes cases are more, but it is not a plinking round & 300 cases will probably out last the bbl. if you shoot the light weight bullets @ speed. Good luck! | |||
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| <AZOnecam> |
Thanks everyone for your opinions. I have been leaning toward the 7mm Wby Mag for a lot of the reasons posted, but I'm a bit of a newbie and wanted to make sure there was nothing wrong with that cartridge, especially since the Rem is such a "tried-and-true" performer. When I finally get it outfitted, I'll try and post a pic. Thinking of topping it w/ a Cabela's Alaskan Guide scope, but not sure which one. Take Care, | ||
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| one of us |
Weatherby does load their factory loads very hot while remington loads theirs very mild.With handloads loaded to the same pressure the stw is considerable faster than the weatherby which is just slightly faster than the remington | |||
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| one of us |
quote: The STW is total garbage. In order to get the claimed velocites, large quantities of extremely slow burning are needed. The results are lower barrel life, and more frequent cleanings, in addition to the increased recoil - - and all for nothing useful in terms of realistic hunting ranges. And I've yet to see one of these rifles of the three I've fired deliver the accuracy needed for those "long range" shots. Back to the original question. Get the 7mm Weatherby. I had a 7mm Rem Mag in the Weatherby ULW, as does a friend of mine. While they shot well, the velocities of those and every other 7mm Rem Mag I've shot and reloaded for were disappointing - - I rate it as not more useful than a .270 Win. I sold the ULW and bought a Mark V Sporter in 7mm Weatherby. Wow! The velocity beats the Rem Mag by at least 100 fps and the accuracy with handloads is and incredible 1/2 MOA at 200 yards. It only uses about 70 grains of powder (2 more than the Rem Mag) and it loves H4831SC, which will not foul and erode your barrel like the fool H1000, RL25 and other STW/RemUltraMag-style powders, with their 90-100 grain charges. The 7mm Weatherby is a sales dog for them, and you can find Federal brass fairly cheap. A dealer with a 7mm Weatherby in stock will often sell it cheap just to move it. The 7mm Weatherby is highly recommended. [This message has been edited by KuduKing (edited 05-11-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
Gentlemen, I don't have experience with the 7mm Weatherby, but I know the 7mm Rem Mag has killed everything from blacktail to eland for me, and usually quite easily. A 175 gr. Nosler partition at 3000 fps is achieveable in my Ruger M77 MkII, shoots accurately, extracts easily at all temperatures, and penetrates all day. That is enough to sell me on it. Joel Slate | |||
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| one of us |
Kuduking-Maybe it's the shooter and not the 7mmstw caliber that is your problem.My two 7mm stw rifles both average 1/2" at 100 yards and well under 3" at 400 yards.Incidently I use 80 gr of 7828 in my stw not 90 to 100 gr as you suggest and fouling is not a problem. | |||
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| one of us |
quote: You are in the minority. Shooter not the problem, my friend. The guys I saw shooting where able to go sub-MOA with my rifle. | |||
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| One of Us |
7 MM Weatherby and the 7 MM Remington mag are ballistic twins. Any difference is perfomrmance is minimal and not due the the cartridge. With apples and apples you can pick either one and the deer or elk won't know the difference. Dan in Wa. I had a guy from Cashmere with a 7mm STW, use my chronograph at the Wenatchee Rifle and pistol club that wanted to shoot his STW over my chronograph a few years ago. He was getting less the same as my 7 MM Remington with 20% more powder and these were downloaded. He said with full power loads the brass went to pieces with one shot. Other wise they went two. He was very unimpressed. There are a few others here and in Entiat that really like them. They have their place. And to me it is other peoples gun safes. | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
HI I would go for the WBY. It has a longer neck which means that the bullets doesn't have to be down in the boiler room. Wby is a fine round and in handroled ammo you will get more velocity than the REM. I would have picked a 300 wby, but thats just me. / JOHAN [This message has been edited by JOHAN (edited 05-13-2002).] | ||
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| one of us |
I agree with RFlowers... run a 7mm RM over a chrony and watch the frowns start. It is a highly over-rated over-hyped cartridge in terms of its velocity and accuracy. The accuracy usually comes with the slower loadings, and the pressure curve on this cartridge varies quite a bit from rifle to rifle and brass manufacturer. So in my opinion, why not just use a .270 Winchester for that level of performance? You'll get longer barrel life and burn less powder, in a lighter rifle that picks up 2 extra shots capacity. Every 7mm RM I've owned and loaded for has been a big disappointment. I had one in the Weatherby Custom Outfitter, which is practically identical to the SBGM. It shot accurately with ho-hum loads. And the 24" lightweight barrel with the large WBY action had neutral balance and rather poor steadiness from field positions. I've been shooting a 7mm WBY Fibermark recently and the difference is remarkable. Velocity is greater than the RM and accuracy as well. | |||
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| <lorenzo1> |
Waiting to see how the 7 mm WSM compares, Bad part is less magazine capacity. If I get another 7mm it will be in a rifle with a short bolt lift like the Browning A-Bolt. | ||
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| one of us |
quote:What you say here is true, but if you get the IMR manual (the free one; it's printed on beige or light brown paper), it has a special page devoted to loads for the Weatherby cartridges using IMR 7828 powder. I find the max loads and velocities listed there check out in my 300 Weatherby, a Remington 700 Classic with a 24 inch barrel. As to the 7mm Rem mag vs. Weatherby mag question, I don't have an opinion -- they're too near being equivalent. But I suggest you do something like this: Use a lottery by writing each caliber on a slip of paper, then folding it up and putting both folded papers in a cup. Then draw out one and see what you get. If you are happy with what you got, then great. If you are disappointed, then you will know that you really wanted the other one, and that's the one you should get. [ 12-08-2002, 07:47: Message edited by: LE270 ] | |||
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| one of us |
Ask that same question on the Big Game forum over at: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB5 More input never hurts and I'd be interested in their response too. From what I've seen of the Weatherby SBGM, it really looks like a great set up. That gun in 257 Wby has been pulling on me pretty hard lately. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
I have to play the Devil's advocate here and say go with the plain old Remington. I've shot one for years and have never found it to be wanting especially for deer sized game. I realize and concede the fact that you can get a little more velocity out of the Weatherby, but at a distance of 300-400 yards, it won't help that much. I doubt you or anyone else, myself included, can hold a rifle with enough precision at a range like that to make an inch matter. That said, the biggest reason I would go with the Remington is the availability of ammo worldwide. I've drug my Remington 7 Mag all over the world with the knowledge that I could obtain ammo in a pinch if needed. That wasn't the fact with a Weatherby cartridge. Facts is facts here guys, Remington is just easier to obtain and if I had lots of cash wrapped up in a hunt I'd hate to lose out on shooting opportunities because I could'nt get ammo and things like that do happen. I had my bag with ammo get misplaced enroute to RSA once. With the Remington 7 Mag, it was just a matter of hitting a gun store in J'Berg to get back in the game. I did notice that they didn't have Weatherby cartidges on hand. That experience taught me to go with the common cartridges such as 375 H&H, 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag etc... for my international hunting. And if I'm not hunting internationally, the same rule applies for small towns here in the Rocky Mtn west. Just my 2 cents worth. Mac | |||
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| One of Us |
I think the nicest of the smaller Wby calibers is the 270 Weatherby. One would really be searching long and far to make a case for one of the 7mm Mags over the other 7mms for game use. My experience with a 270 Wby Mark V and a barrel chambered with a Clymer reamer in 270 Wby as compared to a few 7mm Rems I have owned is about as follows: The 270 Wby is generally faster and with a wider range of powders. It is also less likely to suffer from pressure spikes when loads are right at the top. Undoubtedly all of this relates to the long freebore. The downside is that accuracy is somewhat more fussy than for the conventional freebore of the 7mm Remington. Weatherbys that have a freebore section that is too far over bullet diameter can be real hair pullers when top accuracy is the objective. Mike | |||
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| <Chigger> |
I don't know about the 7mmSTW, other that it shoots the same bullets and does so about 200fps faster, and the recoil is greater too. I have a 7mm mag for the last 12 years and think it is great for elk, mule deer or just about anything out there in north America other than the bigger bears. I shot a mule deer at 420 yards a couple of years ago. It didn't take but a fast jump and fall over dead. I have a 26 inch barrel on mine and the reloading books seem to always have a 24 inch test barrel, so figure another 60fps if you have the longer barrel. I shoot a 140 grn bullet for deer and the 175 for the bigger stuff. The 7mmWeatherby is a dead fish in the water as far as sells go and seeing one of them this past year was a surprize in itself. The cost of ammo is twice as much, if and when you can find it in a gunstore for sale. Not many around me even stock Weatherby ammo. You can get 7mm mag ammo just about anywhere in any gunstore or Wally Mart. | ||
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| one of us |
quote:Kuduking, Consider me part of the minority too. My 7STW cranked out 150s at 3400fps over the chrono and still yielded long brass life. As for accuracy, here are some groups I shot with her as I resighted her after a scope change. This was done in full view of a rangemaster/riflesmith at a local range.  As for your statements on the 7RemMag, thats pure bullshit too. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} I've shot and loaded for many 7s over the years so as one poster stated " You can bullshit the fans but you can't bullshit the players!"MtnHtr [ 12-08-2002, 09:49: Message edited by: MtnHtr ] | |||
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| one of us |
MtnHtr-I guess it's just that weatherby mentality that no other product can be as good. | |||
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| one of us |
Some people just seem to like Weatherbys. I don't happen to be one of them. Mostly because they cost more to buy and to shoot but also because to me they are ugly. Also they all seem to need 26" barrels to get the stated performance. They do seem to shoot pretty well though. | |||
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| one of us |
I would also go 7WBY. mag. I used to shoot a 7Rem. mag. & had it rechambered to 7mm Dakota mag (so much for ammo availability). You will get about 100fps increase over the Rem. w/ equal bbl. lengths. It really comes down to what YOU want. You have just as much of a chance of your rifle being misplaced as your ammo, so I don't worry about factory ammo availability (JMO). | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Norman Clarke in the UK builds 7stw's for long range fun which are capable of tiny groups at very long ranges - for 600rounds that is! | |||
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| <Per577> |
Why don't you go for 7.21 Firebird of Lazzeroni. I bet that's the ultimate 7 mm on the market right now. I've watched their ballistic tables,,and i get impressed everytime. Even their rifles are expensive, i think you can find a eay through the SAKO TRGS rifle, which are much cheaper.This rifle will beat the .300 Wby with every bullet weight up to 175 grains ! | ||
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| <phurley> |
Gentlemen -- You can take what MtnHtr and Stubblejumper are telling you to the bank. I own and shoot the 7mm Rem and 7mm STW, and have for years. I shot a buddies 7mm Wby for several months and got him two different pin point accuracy loads with 140 grain and 160 grain bullets. A good reloader and shooter can take the Weatherby and STW to heights that the Remington cannot go, simple as that. My Remington is a real honey, capable of extreme accuracy, but it will never reach levels the Weatherby and STW. Granted some rifles can be loaded to good speeds, but with accuracy and consistency becomes the question. The Remington is a great round and I love mine but it is on the bottom of this three chambering list. The Weatherby then the STW are steps above it, and in the hands of capable loaders always will be, with the STW being truly awesome. Stubblejumber, I just got back from your beautiful Province, I was impressed and excited enough to plan another trip soon. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} Good shooting. | ||
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| one of us |
Hey Phurley, did you make it out to Elk Island Park? - Dan | |||
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| one of us |
I have never seen much difference in the .270, 06, 7 mag or 7 Wby, or for that matter the 300's anywhere except on paper.... In the field, where balistic charts, internet arguements and hype don't count, there is little difference in observed killing power and trajectory if one stays in the same SD ballpark..they all make about the same number of tracks after the hit. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Up to a point, I'm going to agree with Ray on this one. There really isn't that much differrence in killing power between most of these cartridges. And yes, you can indeed get the 7mm Wby. and the 7mm STW to out-perform the 7mm Rem. Mag. Even so, I'd choose the 7mm Rem. Mag. for my own use. If you look at the tremendous variety and number of big game that this cartridges has taken around the globe for over forty years now, and the number of seasoned hunters (like Bert and Chris Kleinberger) who have used it extensively, it becomes pretty clear that it'll handle whatever you're likely to hunt in fine style. I'd feel comfortable with it for just about everything except for coastal brown bear, lion, cape bufflo, elephant, and hippo. I've used the 7mm Remington on a fair number of mule deer and elk, and it always got the job done very efficiently for me. With most rifles, I could get 160 gr. bullets to produce right at 3100 fps., and 175s to go at just under 3000 fps. out of a 24" barrel, and that's enough! If you want more power from that point, step up to a bigger bore diameter. The 7mm Remiongton is widely available, components are comparatively inexpensive, and the cartridge is easy to shoot and you can do well with a handier 24" barrel. AD | ||
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| <phurley> |
Dan -- I regret to say I did not make it out to Elk Island. I arrived at 3:00 on a Saturday, and determined with only two hours of daylight left, I didn't have time to see much. I intended to call you and visit by phone, then I couldn't remember the correct spelling, the next time I am in town I will call. I had a great Wolfe hunt. I did get a shot the last second of the last day. Poor light or my poor shooting produced a bad hit on a huge black Alpha Male. I actually could see my crosshairs very poorly, therefore I more or less had to center the animal in the scope at 220 yards. We blood trailed the next day across a clear cut that had seedlings three years old, making the job nearly impossible. My guide is still looking as we speak. In retrospect I should not have pulled the trigger, but after six days of daylight to dark without seeing anything, when he appeared and seemed to laugh at me, I lost it. I hunted around Robb, in the foorhills near Jasper Park. Great area and great guide. Good shooting. | ||
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| one of us |
AZOnecam: I'll bet you didn't think that your simple and innocent question could elicit such a storm of prejudice and animosity! Several posts have made some valid observations. Let me try to amalgamate them: (1) The two cartridges, 7mm Remington Magnum and 7mm Weatherby Magnum, are essentially of the same internal capacity and therefore have the same velocity potential. (2) Factory 7mm Weatherby ammunition is loaded to higher pressures and velocities than factory 7mm Remington. (3) If you handload, you can largely negate this difference. (I prefer to handload a cartridge with a standard shoulder rather than the Weatherby radiused shoulder, and I prefer a chamber without a half-inch of freebore like the Weatherby, but those are MY preferences and prejudices and can be discounted as such.) (4) If you don't think that the 26" barrel will give you any mobility problems, it will enhance your velocity and reduce muzzle blast and perceived report by a bit. However, you will not be particularly handicapped by a 24" barrel nor greatly advantaged by a 26" barrel. (5) You didn't ask about the 7mm STW, which has a greater internal case capacity and will therefore provide a bit more velocity than either of the others at the same pressure (with appropriate propellants), and do so with potentially equal accuracy, so I won't comment. (6) In my (limited) experience, it is a bit easier to get the desired level of accuracy from conventional chambers rather than freebored chambers. Again, this experience is very limited and many freebored Weatherby's exhibit excellent accuracy. (7) You didn't ask about this, either, but the Mark V action is very large and somewhat bulky (being capable of accomodating super-large rounds like the .460 Weatherby). It is somewhat larger than required by either of the cartridges in which you are interested, so you might wish to consider a different gun if the size and weight of the action is imporatant to you. Good luck sorting all of this wonderful information out. In the end, buy whatever pleases you. | |||
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| <Buliwyf> |
AZOnecam, The 7mm Rem is actually from the Winchester family of cartridges ie 458, 338, 300, & 264. It is the 264 necked up. The 280 Rem is about the right powder capacity for a .284 bore,therefore, the magnum 7's are all varying degrees of overbore capacity. I would choose the 7mm Remington over the 7mm WBY because of ammo availability, rifle availability, and design not requiring freebore. | ||
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| one of us |
MntHtr - - As far as "pure bullshit" is concerned, you are the king. Throwing a little icon up there that rolls it's eyes doesnt give your opinion any legitimacy. In fact, it shows your ignorance.Remington's own factory load for the 150 grain bullet was originally listed at 3260 fps. Now its at 3110 fps. The current 160 grain load is 2900 fps. Ho-hum. It can be boosted in some rifles to 3000 fps with a handload - - and in some rifles those loads will start stretching the primer pocket. The brass is inconsistent from manufacturer to manufacturer, and the chambers are similarly inconsistent. The results are a grab-bag when it comes to what you will get out of your rifle. The factory published velocities (and pressures) have all been adjusted downward to reflect that reality. Let's take a look at what the ballistic labs have to say: "Great care should be exercised in loading for this cartidge, since there appear to be many variations in chamber and throat dimensions. We have observed many fired cases from different rifles chambered for this cartridge that would not accept a bullet in the neck, indicating not enough neck clearance." -Sierra Reloading Manual, Third Edition "There is quite a variation in published loading data for this caliber.....Seldom will either handloads or factory ammuntion match nominal factory ballistics in a sporting rifle and there is a great deal of velocity variation among sporters in this caliber." - Speer Reloading Manual, Number 13 "Pressure can spike rapidly in any cartidge but the 7mm Remington Magnum seems more prone to do so. I've seen some pressure data on this cartidge where the powders reversed themselves from their normal order of burning rate..." - Craig Boddington, A-Square Handloading and Rifle Manual, 1996 In the A-Square manual, not a single pressure-tested 160 grain load in the 7mm RM safely made it past 2965 fps. The 7mm WBY safely exceeded that by 100 fps. But of course YOU are the expert. The shooter should discount what these professional ballisticians have to say. The 7mm Rem Mag is overrated and overhyped. Don't wanna believe it, that's your fantasy. I'm not saying that it isn't effective. It just doesn't deliver what was initially promised, either in factory ammo or handloads. The factory published velocities have all been adjusted downward to reflect that reality, and loading manuals reinforce it. As far as the 7mm STW is concerned, anyone can go have a custom rifle built in any calibre and deliver good accuracy. And I go out and find some factory rifles that are contrary to the trend. So posting your groups is meaningless. However, the general experience of most shooters of this round through factory rifles is that it is a turkey with anything greater than 140-150 grains of bullet. Getting the accuracy and velocity that's claimed for it is a waste of powder and time. And I'm not wasting any more of my time to go ahead and have to prove this one as well. [ 12-12-2002, 07:04: Message edited by: KuduKing ] | |||
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| one of us |
Quoting craig boddington and then calling him a professional ballistician certainly won't get a person much credibility here. [ 12-12-2002, 08:46: Message edited by: stubblejumper ] | |||
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| one of us |
Kuduking, You tell me just what your 7 Weatherby can do that a 7 RemMag cannot do? I can quote plenty of pro 7 RemMag material from the so called ballistic labs to offset your claims. So what does this prove? The Weatherby round will hit you in the pocket book a little more is all. Did you test every factory load offered for the 7 RemMag? No animal is going to know the difference between the two rounds right? And most of us know only handloading brings out the best in most cartridges and rifles so whats the big deal? MtnHtr | |||
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| one of us |
That's funny I've got a speer #11 manual and nosler #4 and in the 160 to 175gr range,I'm not seeing the magical 100fps gain with the weatherby. Weatherby doesn't just use freebore,for shits and giggles. They use freebore,because they are well aware that their ammo is loaded hot,to hot in many cases and freebore compensates for this. There are plenty of cases dealing with the .257 weatherby,chambered in custom rifles without freebore. That resulted in major problems,since weatherby data is based on rifles with freebore. Weatherby is over rated,plain and simple. If it wasn't for the .300 Weatherby,the company wouldn't have any truly popular offerings. As it is anything that weatherby offers in a cartridge,can basically be duplicated by winchester or remington. All for less money and in better rifles. Roy Weatherby was the company. He hob knobed the rich and famous. Built unique rifles for these people and even built a few unique rifles for lesser known people. He was a great salesman,look at some of the shit he called a rifle stock. However,when roy died so did the legacy. The family is still under the false idea,that the company has remained the same. It hasn't. | |||
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