I booked a pig hunt for my 13YO son. The fees were reasonable, but not cheap. The payment was due when you get one.

We came across a group of pigs, about 100 yard off. I looked at them for a while and said they look like a sow and piglets. I told him I did not want a wet sow or piglet.

I asked the guide how big they were. He said about 100 lbs. Based on his assessment, I told my son shot to shoot one. Good shot too considering the size. He did not get "pig fever" at all.

Unfortunately. it was a tiny piglet, about 15 pounds. It made about 1 quart of meat.

I think he owes me a discounted "do over".

Am I out of line?

In my opinion, no, the outfitter does not owe you a discount or do-over. You paid for a hunting trip and that's what you got. You were provided access to a place to hunt and were put on to game. You son made the decision to pull the trigger and he gets what he shot at.

Pig hunting is basically about pest control. If you are overly sentimental about shooting a wet sow (or shooting the piglets) you should probably have gone for some other animal or maybe hunting isn't for you.

If you need a guaranteed quantity of meat you should have gone to a grocery store.

You pull the trigger you bought it. That being said, a decent outfitter would have offered to keep hunting for something a bit larger.

quote:

If you are overly sentimental about shooting a wet sow (or shooting the piglets) you should probably have gone for some other animal or maybe hunting isn't for you.

That is unnecessary.

I am not interested in killing for it's own sake. I want to pass on that ethic to my son.

To repeat it, I solicited an opinion from the guide before we shot. He misjudged it. Turns out I was right. Sometimes it happens.

It is too bad my that his first hunt was one of those F-ups.

I guess the lesson is to discuss this kind of thing before booking the hunt and decide accordingly. Although I have killed a truck load of deer and hogs, I never had to book a hunt with a stranger before this. I did not know what to expect.

quote:

Originally posted by JA:
You pull the trigger you bought it. That being said, a decent outfitter would have offered to keep hunting for something a bit larger.

Sounds like quite the guide who misjudged a 15 lb hoglet for a 100 lb pig.

A deal is a deal. Are you absolutely sure he wasn't speaking of the size of the sow?

That said, it comes down to a matter of ethics and accepting responsibility, even if it is only a partial responsibility, for the mistake. Again, the big word - ethics.

Was the outfitter just an outfitter or was it his operation on his property?

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Sounds like quite the guide who misjudged a 15 lb hoglet for a 100 lb pig.

Agreed

This is why I'm afraid of doing a black bear hunt. Never been around them and don't want to end up shooting a cub because I don't know what a normal black bear looks like (for the area hunted)

If there was absolutely NO confusion about which pig was being discussed, I would be very upset with a guide who says to shoot a 15lb'er claiming it was 100!
He should have allowed your son to continue hunting until a proper animal was found.

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
If there was absolutely NO confusion about which pig was being discussed, I would be very upset with a guide who says to shoot a 15lb'er claiming it was 100!

That would make be want to pay the guy $15 for every $100 I owned him saying, "I'm sorry, you thought those were hundreds? They're really only fifteens."

Black hogs can be deceiving and hard to judge. That kind of mistake doesn't seem at all reasonable. The guide sounds incompetent or he is a crook.

Do you owe? Probably.

Several things here. 1) I hope you did not pass on to your son your disappointment over the fact that he hunted and DID get an animal. It would still be a trophy to me for a first time hunter.
2) If you have pig hunted before, as you say, you should have been able to provide the guidance as well as the guide.
3) If the shot was taken and the animal down (or not) then the fee is owed, unless it was a guaranteed hunt up front.
4) I would hope the guide would offer the discount for another hunt, but it is not required.
5) Shooting wet sows is neither unethical nor unreasonable. No more than swatting mosquitoes. Vermin are vermin and destructive pests are just that. Just my opinion.

Even though there are a lot of pigs on the properties I hunt, I do not guarantee my hunts.

I charge $100.00 per day and that includes one hog of any size, if a hog is shot. Additional hogs can be taken @ $25.00 per animal up to 125 pounds or $50.00 for animals over 130 pounds.

I leave it up to the client to take or pass on a shot, but, I will advise them on whether the pig they are look at is worth shooting or not. My cut off point is anything 50 pounds or less gets a pass, unless the client actually wants to shoot the thing.

Reality is however, and again this is strictly up to the guide/landowner, etc. with most operations, if the shot is taken and blood drawn, you bought it.

I know some will find that cold, but reality is guides/outfitters or landowners are out money and time offering such hunts, but under normal "Free Range" circumstances, they really cannot guarantee that game or certain sized game will show up at any specified location or time.

The battle is to get the local judges to take wildlife violations seriously. Some judges give them a slap on the wrist and they go back to their dirty deeds.

Tom

Wrong thread, opps!

Well you shot the pig that's your hunt from a legal standpoint, but your guide is a puke if you gave us all the facts...

Most any guide, if your a decent fellow and the kids a good well behaved young man, would tell your boy to go ahead and shoot another Pig..Pigs are not so rare as to diminish common curtesy..Find another outfit..I wouldn't want to hunt with a dumb butt that didn't know a 15 pound pig from a 100 pound pig..

But I must also qualify I wasn't there, and have only heard your side of the story, and on the internet one sided stories are accepted as fact in so many cases. therefore I reserve judgment.

First all pig hunting is not pest control in every state. For example in CA, feral pigs are managed as game animals.

Lots of things that can be argued about whether or not you owe him the money.

Here is another story.

Hunter shoots a cape buffalo. The bullet it hits the buff drops at that shot and rolls on to it back and starts thrashing its legs.

Hunter says "I am going to shoot him again"

PH says "No, Do not shoot. He will die"

Buff still licking his legs.

Hunter says a second time "I want to shoot him again"

PH says "No Don Not Shoot! He will die"

Buff jumps up and runs off never to be found.

Should the hunter pay the trophy fee for the lost Buff?

In many states, feral pigs are regarded as "Invasive species" and state rules are that they be shot on sight!

Why am I not surprised that California is "different"?

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
In many states, feral pigs are regarded as "Invasive species" and state rules are that they be shot on sight!

Why am I not surprised that California is "different"?

Yup. No limit and no season here in Florida . One could not dent the population if you tried. They cause a hell of a lot of destruction.

I have shot a hell of a lot of hogs in my life. If I had to guess, over a thousand . It is easy to misjudge a black hog in low light . The difference between a 15 and a 100 though ? I say BS. No way any reasonably experienced person should make that kind of mistake. I have to wonder if this was an intentional "mistake."

I have no problem shooting hogs that small when the goal is population control . On a guided hunt though? Not a chance.

Regardless, if it was the kids first hog and he was excited, good for him. I have a couple of small pigs mounted in my trophy room that were killed by my sons when they were very young. Their first pigs. They were proud of them and so was I. Still am.

When I am with a client and pigs come in, I usually end up "Low Balling" the weight, does not matter the color of the pig or light conditions.

I have looked at, shot and guided people to enough hogs to have a pretty realistic idea of what an individual pig weighs when at a feeder.

I am not sure what happened with the situation in question.

Seems I have struck up a lively thread.

In no particular order of making sense....

IT is California.

I paid $600.

Their normal deal is that you can come back until you get one, repeat trips are free.

I have been hunting for 40-years. I have killed dozens of hogs. It has been 10 years since I lost my hunting property. Hiring a guide is a bit of an act desperation.

I do consider hogs as a legitimate game animal, not vermin.

He did allow another few hours the next day on his tag to get another.

I would have given the "guides" a $100 tip each if they wrote that little piggie off as a mistake.

The only thing I see here that's been missed is.
The discussion up front BEFORE going out.
Re: "I will not shoot a wet sow, or one with piglets, nor will I let my son". In that case you'd been right to refuse to shoot or let the boy shoot even if he wanted to no matter what the guide had to say.

Ok, a question: "what do you feel the sow weighed?"

Good discussion, brings up some things we all need to consider. IMO that's a hell of a price for a pig hunt though.

When Steve and I went for pigs in Fla. back in 'July '11. He wanted "an eater", so he shot a 35# piglet. I thought it was ridiculous but that's what he wanted. I wanted as big a boar as possible. The owner claimed there was several 400-500# boars on the place. I believe we saw some that big but it was too dark to see thru the scope and we didn't have a light. I shot one of 147# the same morning but, it wasn't as big as I'd hoped so we went the next morning and sat until one I was happier with came along and I shot it too. I paid for both and was happy about it. The guy did screw me on the mounting. I'd told him I wanted to send the cape to a tannery and have it done right and would pay what it cost. He said ok, but, didn't do it. Now years later the mouth and eye's are split 3-4" due to improper tanning.

George

In the future I will ask for a written list of rules and terms. Everybody will sign off on the terms. Nothing was in writing this time.

I tend to expect people to treat me as I treat them. I used to believe that a handshake and cash were all that was needed amoung men of character. I am apparenlty a naive anachnorisim.

IN the past several months I have beeen burned by three individuals on three different such deals. I am done with doing business like a man of character, and now feel forced to do business "the modern way". Signed papers and credit cards. It should not be needed, but they apparently are now necessary.

Prices?? Google pig hunts, Central California. You can easily spend thousands on such a hunt. These guys were cheap by comparison. They did not project a professional image. Either by apperance or deed. It was aword of mouth thing. No webpage or business.

A cheap hunt in California will not be a good hunt. It will be domestic pigs released and shot in a 100-400 acre pen, maybe a really nice place will be a 1800 acre pen. There will be tons of pigs, or sheep, or goats in it.

A free range hunt in California for pigs is a good hunt. Pigs are treated as a game species by the state. California is 52% public land. Pigs kind of need to be a game animal. They are managed as wildlife. If feral pigs were managed like they are in Texas, California wouldn't have any. Feral pigs get killed off quickly on public BLM and Forest service land where they live.

The ranches that offer those hunts are expensive (by feral pig standards) some are $3000 for a 3 day hunt.

They are expensive because feral pigs are a commodity, a deer hunt for a little sad looking California mule deer with 3 points on one side (including the brow tine) can be $5000. Why? Because California has over 50,000,000 people. You can actually hunt free ranging sambar and aoudad in California. Those hunts are about $14,000 and $6500 respectively. Quite a bit more than Texas. Why? Because California has the population density to make it work that way.

Here's another for instance. A feral pig lease on the Tejon ranch includes 4 or 5 pigs and is about $5000 a year. There will be options to buy more pigs at about $300-500 depending on the year. Coyotes are free, you can ride horses, camp, fish, and buy a bear tag for $1000.

The Tejon ranch is 240,000 acres.

Looks like prices are different than 2015.

INDIVIDUAL SPRING
MEMBERSHIP

$4,000

Includes spouse and dependent children. Group Packages available. Please contact Tejon Ranch Wildlife Management Department.

Includes 4 pigs, can buy more pigs for $450 per pig.


INDIVIDUAL
North & South Membership has access to approximately 133,000 acres

$11,000

14 pig options
Additional pig options may be purchased for $450 each.

Notice these are half year options.

http://hunt.tejonranch.com/guided-pig-hunts/

$1800 for 3 days.

Yeah, it is difficult to get used to how it is now. I used to hunt private land for free. I also was in a club that only charged enough to cover the mess bill. It was a big exteneded family. Things change.

quote:

Originally posted by Scota4570:

IT is California.

I paid $600.

Their normal deal is that you can come back until you get one, repeat trips are free.

I'm guessing that's the same place I went to a DIY pig hunt with one of my sons. We stayed in a log cabin and hunted for three days. There were about eight other hunters. All of them got a pig but the "caretaker", for want of a better word, also worked there as a guide for high priced hunts and he ended up going out with all of them to show them where the pigs were. Money was changing hands. It's one thing to hire a guide. It's another to participate in a do it yourself hunt and find out the camp cook is hiring out to everyone as an undercover guide. That put me off. I didn't offer to pay him and he never went out with us. I had suspicions about how he could know exactly where the pigs were. He would go out with a couple guys and come back with a couple of pigs. Then go out later with a couple more guys and come back with a couple of pigs. Things seemed a little too pat. I wondered if it was all scouting or if a little baiting had entered into it but those were just suspicions.

We never saw any pigs, not one. We did see bobcat, coyotes, and some turkeys but we weren't hunting those. The last day it snowed and that severely limited what areas we could access. It was about thirteen years ago. `I contacted them the next year about going back for a free do over but they rudely informed they they no longer offered that type of hunt and suggested I just book a guided hunt at full cost. That was just icing on the stinking cake as far as I was concerned.

Now, I see they are once again offering 3-day DIY hunts at a rate of $6,000 for a group of 8 hunters. If I still lived in California I'd be tempted to re-test their word on the free come-back. But then I'd have to travel back down there, buy an out of state license, use lead free ammunition, leave the AR at home, hunt without the opportunity to scout ahead of time (restricted entry), and deal with their stand-offish administration. And as to ethics, well they had to shut down all hunting there for a few years because Fish and Wildlife caught them shooting cougars so they could increase the size of their trophy elk herd.

The corporation, which illegally killed at least 11 cats to keep them away from game wanted by high-paying trophy hunters, must pay $136,500, according to a settlement with the state fish and game agency.

I'd say the fine was kind of small considering they currently charge $30,000 for elk hunts.

Again, I'm assuming we are talking about the same outfit, Tejon Ranch. If not, if you used somebody else, then you should come right out and say who it was. Isn't that one of the benefits of AR?

Place me in the camp that says the guide or outfit should make this right. This assumes the pig shot as a 100 pounder that you wanted your son to shoot was the exact pig the guide called at 100 pounds that turned out to be a 15 pound piglet. Honestly, if I owned the operation, I would apologize for the incompetent guide.

This is not like someone calling a buff to be 40 inches and the tape said 38 or deer called at 170 and he "only" made 165, No guide should make a 85 pound mistake.

quote:

I have been hunting for 40-years. I have killed dozens of hogs. It has been 10 years since I lost my hunting property. Hiring a guide is a bit of an act desperation.

I dunno if I'm getting the whole story. If you've "killed dozens of hogs", then you should CERTAINLY have been able to tell how big a bunch of shoats are. So, while I am guessing that your guide was talking about the sow, the real onus is on you. In effect, you allowed your son to shoot a pig that you HAD to know was too small for what you wanted. A single pig, alone, in poor light, I MIGHT see how someone could mistake a 15 pound pig for a 100 pounder, but that's a real stretch and basically impossible for someone who knows pigs.

BTW, I note that you started a second thread on this incident. How many opinions do you need?

All that said, I think any reasonable guide, especially considering the age of your son, would/should have allowed another chance and certainly would have if he had actually called the piglet as a 100 pounder. In my younger days, he might have gotten the $600, but one of us would have had an ass whopping before it was settled.

Finally, and I can't imagine why you would be here, but if you and your son are in the NE Texas area, in the cooler months, starting with October until about early May, let me know and y'all can stop by my ranch and I can almost guarantee your son a pig or as many as he can shoot, if he's lucky. Of course we are not, to date, ate up with California's fine sense of hogology, and I would shoot a wet sow FIRST because she is damn sure going to have some more before long. In Texas, they ain't game animals they are like overgrown rats that happen to taste good. Right now, I am wrapped up with cattle and the pigs are difficult to hunt due to the heat. I would strongly NOT recommend coming in the hot months unless your name is Kensco and he can miss them in any month (just kidding Ken, you actually did well the last time.........for a change) .

Something is way wrong with confusing a 100 pounder with a 15 pounder. WAY wrong.

When the light is low and there is noting to compare to, sure I can see a mistake. A mistake like this? Not a chance.

quote:

Should the hunter pay the trophy fee for the lost Buff?

Of course, he was the shooter, he didn't need permission to shoot again. Not a good call on PH's part and I can't really understand why PH wouldn't want an insurance shot, but, nonetheless, shooter's fault.

I wonder if the guide meant the sow was 100 pounds?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I wonder if the guide meant the sow was 100 pounds?

Only reasonable explanation.

No room for argument here, ths scenario are being contrived..Ive spent a lifetime on one sid or the other...

The bottom line is and the only answer is you have to be fair and judge each case on its own merits..

The owner of the property is the only one to make that decision, but a wrong or silly decision will come back and bite him in the long run..

If it was a pig, I gave the shooter another pig. If it was a mature deer, and he had a reasonable shot he bought it as a rule in which case I never had a disagreement.

In this case the 100 lb. pig weighed 15 pounds so I would have the hunter shoot another pig and fire the guide, even if the guide were kinfolk..

Ive had some funny and not so funny deals with hunters, they come in all sizes and shapes.

quote:

Of course we are not, to date, ate up with California's fine sense of hogology, and I would shoot a wet sow FIRST because she is damn sure going to have some more before long.

They are a game animal in California not vermin. You guys need to accept this concept to help understand why hunting for wild pigs is different in California.

Would you shoot a doe, and let two spotted babies starve to death?

Next time, fly out to Texas for a 3 or 4 day weekend. Far better value, and there are any number of excellent outfitters here. If you don't want to fly, consider booking a hunt with one of the West Texas outfitters who offer hunts around El Paso.

BTW, I don't say this lightly. Since my favorite Gulf tuna boat was sold out of Texas, I do the reverse and fly to San Diego to salt water fish. It ends up being easier and cheaper than fishing tuna in the Gulf.

https://www.hortoncrossbows.co...ter&utm_medium=email


Here is link to a little hog hunting video. It might give you a little insight into the type of mistake made.

Randall, what would you call the size of the hog shot? What would you call the size of the shoats?

quote:

You guys need to accept this concept to help understand why hunting for wild pigs is different in California.

Yeah, give those hogs some more "game" protection and they'll discover they are killing all those highly rare and protected species that Californians worry so much about. They will continue to increase in population and become pests, if they already aren't.