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Full story at the link https://www.ammoland.com/2022/...enses-against-bears/ These eleven events of pistols fired in defense against bears, in combination with other items, have been found since the last update in June of 2021. The increasing number of incidents had made checking all links difficult and awkward. With this article, and in the future, updates will consist of the newly revealed incidents and any change in statistics. In this article eleven newly revealed cases of combination defenses are added for completeness. In our research of the effectiveness of pistol fired in defense against bears, we include all documented incidents, so readers may evaluate them themselves. | ||
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Interesting. I think I would prefer a 12-gauge shotgun loaded with three-inch magnum Brennekes over any handgun and most rifles for anything within 50 yards or so. The thought of being charged by an angry bear -- black, brown or grizz -- is extremely sobering. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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It seems one of the reasons handguns are so effective. Is that one tends to have one with them. They not left behind, left leaning against a tree or something. | |||
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I was asked on several occasions in DEA why I sometimes carried that neat little double action 25 auto...My answer is I always had it and it beat a pocket knife..The only reason I carry a 44 mag or 45 colt when fishing in Alaska or with the increase in Moose in Idaho..the pistol is there!!and better than nothing.. In any dangerous game situation, I much prefer a big bore rifle, 9.3x62 and up, over any shotgun. My experience with shotguns is restricted to a few deer with slugs and buckshot, neither of which impressed me, contrary to most opines...I also observed the effect of buckshot on humans in my years of LE, very effective at room distance, not so much as the range increases or so it seemed..I never carried a shotgun in LE, preferred a rifle, M-16 or Ruger issue. The USFS wrought with liberal thinking chose the shotgun for personal protection, few felt the need and a couple got et. Take note that most Alaskan guides prefer a rifle to a shotgun, I don't recall one that packed a shotgun, but probably an exception somewhere. I doubt they last long..  The pistol is still your best bet all things considered, but lots a good opinions both pro and con, its not a perfect world... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I agree at the distances we are talking about a shotgun needs to be aimed. Might as well use am effective caliber rifle. | |||
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So those that mention slugs think that would be more effective than a cloud of #5 turkey load 3.5" 12g at 10 yds and in? Very little chance of missing with what amounts to a deadly basketball-size cloud of lead in my mind. Then again.....I've never been in bear country lol _________________________ Liberalism is a mental disorder. | |||
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I would not think you could rely on No. 5 bird shot to get through the skull and hid of a bear. The mass per projectile just ain’t there to penetrate. | |||
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When the load of shot is still under a fist size it will smash through a lot. The trouble is it still has to be aimed and if your off by a few yards you lose effectiveness. I prefer bullets. | |||
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But each individual pellet still only had the mass of that individual, small light bird shot. It is not a soils, slug. | |||
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BB - T sized TSS might change the effectiveness of shot from a shotgun. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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2 3/4 " 00 Buck at 25 ft.   Grizz When the horse has been eliminated, human life may be extended an average of five or more years. James R. Doolitle I think they've been misunderstood. Timothy Tredwell | |||
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I think we can all agree 00 Buck has more mass per pellet than No.5 bird shot. And a dry, hideless, I am guessing cow skull is a lot easier to get into than the live skull of a bear. I would very much prefer non expanding, not deer level, slugs. Folks can carry what they want, but I will stand by bird shot has no place on Bears, and to suggest otherwise is insane. I have killed deer with No.4 bird shot, head shot at close range once in North Carolina. Worked fine as a doe ran past me at 10 feet, but a bear skull is a different melon to crack. | |||
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This may be so. There is F size shot as well that TSS may make work. Pure tungsten is awesome. Only a CNS destroying hit will stop or prevent the chewing. Soft lead or even plated bird shot just ain’t getting through bone, hide, and blood. | |||
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Just like when I am in Africa…my .500 NE double rifle shooting flat-nose solid bullets would be my weapon of choice if I got to pick. Handguns are there for those situations we never think of. They need to be carried by habit in bear country to be there for that once-in-a-lifetime situation. Heavy loads with the best penetrating bullets available — heavy for caliber hard solid flat-nose. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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The bears I have shot with 00 buck died. They were close range shots under 10 yards. One still has to aim, if one's pattern is large enough. That aiming is not critical then one has to worry about penetration. I prefer solid projectiles. | |||
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There have been cases of bird shot successfully used against large bears. While not ideal one uses what one has/ Here are a three of them. https://www.ammoland.com/2020/...-range-bear-defense/ https://www.ammoland.com/2020/...-range-bear-defense/ | |||
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I have personally seen No 8 bird shot put a 12 bore sized hole in the skull of a wild hog at about 8 feet that was charging... Not the same as a 1200 lb grizzly by any means though, thank God. | |||
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If I were hunting grouse and got charged I would unload the scatter gun. I hope I could hold it together until the bear was close. I would rather have bear spray than bird shot. There are plenty of reports of buckshot failing on leopard and lion. Reports of buckshot working on lion and leopard. I am not going to bet the mauling or death on bird shot. All I know is I would not use shot if I had the choice. The Late Ian Gibson swore off shotguns on lion when his Magnum 10 loaded with buckshot failed to kill a wounded lion. I saw him say it. | |||
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One has to make many choices in life. | |||
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Yup agree that BBB or T might be more effective if you happen to be goose hunting but have you ever seen what a heavy lead 3.5" 12g load out of an extra full choke does to something at 10 yds? I'm not arguing that's what you'd bring for bear defense but I'm not so sure it'd be as ineffective as some are saying. _________________________ Liberalism is a mental disorder. | |||
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I totally agree. As a young man in the Army it was a constant refrain to hear "touch your rifle" throughout the day during various activities, the idea being that if your rifle was ever more than arm's length away no matter what else you were doing you were doing it wrong. Having a bear emergency is statistically very unlikely, just like having a house fire is, but if that improbable event DOES occur you'll be glad you ingrained the simple habit of always having a quickly accessible weapon when seconds really really count. As an aside, all of these bear threads compelled me to upgrade to a better/more comfortable chest holster (so I'll actually wear it more often) for backpacking with the kids. Despite innumerable bear encounters over the years I'd gotten lazy especially in really hot weather and would occasionally throw a pistol in the top compartment of my pack where it is useless despite knowing better. Cheers! DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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45 plus years ago years ago I was hired into my first LEO job. From that time to present there has been only a handful of days that I have not had a handgun on me. Field, forest, city, town around the house 99 percent of the time I am armed. | |||
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Good for you, O-Bob ___________________________________________________________________________________ Give me the simple life; an AK-47, a good guard dog and a nymphomaniac who owns a liquor store. | |||
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I’ve seen what a 12 ga birdshot round does to deer and (unfortunately) people. Birdshot will work fine on even a bear… if you are close enough. It’s almost contact distance, but it will work. The net effect is a very rapid expanding slug. I would not prefer a shotgun with birdshot on a bear, but if you are cool enough and accurate enough it would work. A friend had through penetration of a deer with a pheasant load, but the wad was in the deer and the hide was scorched. A suicide with a shotgun makes a hell of a mess. A handgun generally has less power, although it does have more penetration at a distance. When I’ve hunted bear in AK, my rifle was never out of arms length. A handgun is not that effective, compared to a rifle, and my experience in the field has been most folks carry their big bore handgun about as well as their rifle- it’s on when actively hunting, but it sits in the tent when they are in camp. The argument that having a pistol is better than nothing is absolutely true, but most folks take that 3-4# chunk of metal off when they get to relaxing. You have a rifle while hunting, and it’s in arms reach at all times while hunting… I don’t get taking the handgun unless you are the rare bird that straps it on and NEVER takes it off while hunting. I’m not anti handgun, I’d take it with if I was doing something that wouldn’t allow me to keep my rifle with me- like fishing or canoeing up there when not hunting- but the deer rifle is orders of magnitude better than a pistol as far as stopping power. You are better off with extra ammo for your rifle than trying to use the pistol instead. | |||
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Stopping power is some what a myth Proper bullets, placed in the proper spot, is what stops. There are many outdoor activities where carrying a long gun is a PITA. The latest research shows handguns are 97 to 98 percent effective against bears for self-defense. Having killed bears with 41 and 44 mags with proper bullets in the proper place. Those bears died quickly. Like many things if one knew something bad was going to happen. One just would not go there. What I have found most people who condemn handguns are poor handgun users. Or anti's | |||
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Handguns are that effective? Doubt it. I’ve shot enough competition to realize most people aren’t going to hit vitals under stress with a handgun- especially a brain/CNS shot necessary for a determined charge/attack. Most “defensive” bear shootings probably are not aggressive bears but more “bear in proximity”. I’ve carried a revolver in the woods for bear defense when doing something else… but it’s no 90+% turn key solution. Someone unwilling to put several hundred rounds of handgun practice in a year is better off with bear spray. Hint, if it takes 3-4 seconds to get the gun out, it’s not worth much. | |||
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Read the results. Read all the cases then get back to me. https://www.ammoland.com/2021/...-cases-97-effective/ The next up dates will have 120 plus cases. | |||
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If you think that qualifies as scientific… That’s cherry picked data from as far back as the 30’s using newspaper or internet sources. Their comments about inclusion show this is highly observer biased criteria. Having a gun is better than not logically. But like with African game, most charges are not charges. Face it, how many times are you going to see in print “I saw a bear! I figured I needed to defend myself, and by the time I got my gun out he was gone! I scared him off with my gun, by gar! 90+ percent effective? Bull. The bear guides don’t recommend them. If it’s 90+% effective, why? Maybe they realize it’s not. | |||
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Come up with better data. If this is cherry picking you should be able to come up with many cases showing so. What is non scientific is Smith and Herrero and their bear spray study and their unwillingness to release their data. Find other cases. We included every case that we could find. Show us the other cases and they well be inclued. The lower 48 cases including grizzly bears are and have been highly investigated. Defense of life and property cases are investigated by the state of Alaska. Guides don't want another firearm around to worry about. | |||
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Just someone selling handguns, or handguns for hunting. What a crap weapon when faced with a 700 to 1700 pound predator. Read a number of accounts where bears bit on a human head and shook the person like a rag doll. I remember a full sized grizzly bear display. The plague said the bear took 9 or 11 shots with a 300 Win Mag before it stayed down. Handgun, bah! Pop at a bear with a handgun, you just escalated the encounter to a fight to the death, and the bear will be real angry. How far does it take a bear to reach 30 mph? How does far does it take you to reach 31 mph? Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska https://bearwise.org/wp-conten...mith-et-al.-2010.pdf  | |||
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You can disprove the facts easily. Show us the failures. Uncle Bob telling Joe blow that his friend fired 12 rounds of 44 doesn't count. People who want to believe handguns are ineffective. Want to still believe the myths. | |||
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What Bull Sh!t. tell that to Phil Shoemaker famous Alaska bear Guide. Who used a 9mmL. on a large brown bear. Or The story related in the 2022 gun is a more detail account of Phil's 9mm bear shooting. The statement I found most interesting is. Quoting Phil. from the article. "I stated handguns were not only likely to be useful for protection from attacking bruins, but their presence and availability were a genuine asset." There is more, and interesting info from that attack. For those who want to read should get their own copy. | |||
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That’s the problem. You can’t prove anything easily. If you want to prove effectiveness, you are going to have to have a large sample size and utilize quite a bit of work to determine what is bias and how to remove it. Just like handguns in violent confrontations with people. I’ve yet to meet the cop or soldier that thinks a handgun is the first choice in incapacitating an attacker. It’s handier than a rifle or shotgun. You are somewhat more likely to have it when it’s needed. Having one is not 90+% effective. How many bears require more than one magazine/cylinder or have the animal put down with a rifle when handgun hunting? My personal knowledge indicates more than 1 in 10. That shows that a handgun didn’t kill the bear quickly at least that amount of time. If the bear is pressing a determined attack, that’s a failure. Your first issue is “what is a bear attack?” Then you can go from there. Your article has no proof as to what the occurrence was. As to AKFGD investigating bear shootings, I suspect it’s charge with a crime or not. The guys I talked with said most of the time they can’t charge a case, as opposed to it was fully legitimate defense. There is a difference, and you as ex LEO should know that well. | |||
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When I go in my 4570 double is with me. Just like any big game you need proper shot placement. I have seen a 375 drop bears dead in their tracks and have also seen them keep charging. The 4570 soft head does it for me but when I shoot it is less than twenty yards. | |||
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