The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Factory Ammo or Handloads for Hunting?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Handloading extends my hunting fun and gives me suptin to do on rainy days Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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That is really a tough one to answer. I have used both on non dangerous and dangerous game with fine results both ways. With the fine factory ammo that is now available, and shooting very well in some of my firearms, I find that I am loading mainly handgun ammo, and just a few rifle calibers....45-70 the main one. "When you play, play hard; when you work, don't play at all." Theodore Roosevelt | |||
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Hunting with factory ammunition is about like buying one of those picture frames at Walgreens with the generic photo of the attractive couple with the two kids on the sail boat displayed in it -- then setting it on your desk at work as if it were a picture of your family vacation. | |||
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You can buy custom factory ammo that enables you to select your favorite bullet and velocity. If you like Swift A-frames, North Forks, Hawk, Woodleighs, etc, you can have custom ammunition loaded for you at a very reasonable cost. I'm working with Grizzly Cartridge Co on some custom .458 Winchester Magnum loads. A 400 grain round nose Hawk (.050 jackets) at 2000 fps for North American big game and a 420 grain WFNGC hardcast bullet at 1500 fps for target practice and big game. They both will be very reasonable priced. Anyone interested? Let me know. KDM Custom Bullets | |||
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I've been reloading for various calibers since 1962. I can't recall how long it's been since I used anything except reloads for my rifles and handguns while hunting. Whoops! Wait a minute! Just remembered... about 20 years ago, I bought a case of Federal .30-30 Win. 170 grains ammo at one helluva good price. I use those when I carry my old Marlin "thutty thutty." Ain't hardly worth the time and trouble to reload for that Marlin when I still have about one third case left.  I do use factory ammo in my and my wife's self defense handguns. (I consider bandits and cutthroats to be very dangerous game!) L.W. "A 9mm bullet may expand but a .45 bullet sure ain't gonna shrink." | |||
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I feel much more confident when I hunt with my own reloads. I know the cart in the chamber was carefully loaded for that particular rifle. I get much better accuracy from custom loads and prefer the added accuracy and assurance of each load when hunting. I've taken apart "premium' factory ammo. The powder charges vary and the concentricity is usually off. It makes you feel better knowing you took your game with your own handloaded rounds as well. Good Luck Reloader | |||
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I'm with Reloader. Since I was about 14 years old I've been loading for every gun that I own, I'm 46 now and have not taken a game animal with anything other than my own loads for 32 years. I have absolute confidence in my loads and of all of the tens of thousands of rounds I've loaded I had one mis fire and it was the first year I started loading. In that instance I dropped a primer on the floor of our canning shed/ reloading shed and picked it up out of the dirt on the floor come to find out it was and even older primer that had been laying there for months and it failed to fire. Besides that instance 32 years ago I've had flawless performance from my loads and trust them far more than I trust factory loads. All of my rifles except one shoot far more accurate with my handloads the exception is my .338 win mag and it shoots Federal Classic 225 grainers into groups as small as .264" (3 shot group, 100 yards). I will hunt in Africa someday and will hunt the big Bears someday and you can bet the only thing in my rifle and in my pockets will be my own handloads, if you can't trust yourself who can you trust? | |||
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I use Hand loads 99 percent of the time. The only time I use factory stuff is if I am caught short of ammo and no time to reload. I usually shoot a couple brands of factory in new rifles to find a good load for those rare times. | |||
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My hunting rifles have never seen a factory round. The only factory rounds that I shoot are in my 22. | |||
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For most things, I use reloads. Occasionaly I buy some for my .45 ACP, but for hunting I use all reloads. The big question I have is self defense loads. My "go to" gun is a 870 shot gun, but for the .45 I have often thought it would be better for legal purposes to have factory ammo. | |||
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I've never hunted dangerous game but I have hunted where there was a remote chance of running into griz. That said, I have used my reloads for over 45 years. | |||
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I've used handloads exclusively since 1971, with these exceptions: 1. 22 rimfire ammo 2. 10ga magnum ammo for wild turkeys--at most, I only fire 2 shots a year--one in the spring and one in the fall. No use to gear up for reloading that tiny amount. 3. All self defense ammo is fresh factory. Those cartridges in the cylinder or magazine(s) gets replaced every 6 months. 4. Factory ammo as a control reference to calibrate my Oehler M43 PBL. IMO, it is sacrilegious to use factory ammo and be a member of Saeed's accurateRELOADING forum. | |||
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Only factory ammo I shoot under any condition is 22 LR. I refuse to shoot junk. Free men should not be subjected to permits, paperwork and taxation in order to carry any firearm. NRA Benefactor | |||
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I have not fired a factory round in any of my centerfire rifles for 30+ years, only my mod 64 win and my Savage 99 have factory ammo, and I don't shoot either one of them | |||
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I haven't shot a big game animal with a factory round in 40 years. Haven't shot many varmints with many factory rds butt a few. | |||
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I am reminded of a post I saw on a 4x4 site: Manual transmissions can produce better off-road performance in expert hands, and are generally picked by recreational users. The military, however, universally prefers automatics. Assuming this to be true (I believe it is), what conclusions do you draw, and how does it relate to this discussion? Liberals believe that criminals are just like them and guns cause crimes. Conservatives believe criminals are different and that it is the criminals that cause crimes. Maybe both are right and the solution is to keep guns away from liberals. | |||
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For most, handloads. For my 7 WSM, I can't duplicate Federal Premium ammo--160 grain NPs at close to 3,250. Accurate, too. "No one but he who has partaken thereof can understand the keen delight of hunting in lonely lands." | |||
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I have not shot an animal with anything but handloads since 1973 and neither have my son and grandsons, as well as many shooting buddies. If you cannot beat factory rounds for speed or accuracy, you have no business handloading. If you shoot 3000 plus rounds per year you cannot afford to shoot factory ammo, and I have no plans to slow down. Just my .02's worth. I am not telling anyone else how to do it, this is just my way.  Good shooting.phurley | |||
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Handloads in all centerfire hunting rifles and pistols. Will probably handload for AR15, M1 and M1A if I get into shooting matches. Self-defense pistols and all shotguns get factory loads (I don't shoot them enough to justify the cost of handloading setup). BH1 There are no flies on 6.5s! | |||
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I went to a ranch down in TX last year to do some hog hunting and was confirmimg zero with my handloads. One of the other guests at the ranch came up and asked me why I was shooting reloads. I told him I rarely bought factory ammo anymore and it was just another step in the hunting process for me. His reply was that he always practiced with his handloads and bought factory ammo to hunt with. I just smiled and said that it sounded like a good idea for him. | |||
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"If you cannot beat factory rounds for speed or accuracy, you have no business handloading." Phurley, if you know of anyone who's getting 3,250 with 160 NP hand loads in their 7 WSM, please be so kind as to find out what their load is and post it for me here. "No one but he who has partaken thereof can understand the keen delight of hunting in lonely lands." | |||
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Doesn't the 36" barrel kind of negate the purpose of the shorter action? | |||
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Not sure which 36" barrel you're referring to, the 3,250 is a chrono'ed result using my M70 with its factory barrel, not a test barrel. "No one but he who has partaken thereof can understand the keen delight of hunting in lonely lands." | |||
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Cophil ----- What is your experience with the round. 1. The number of rounds reloaded. 2. The number of factory rounds shot before deciding you conclusion. Just trying to get at the facts. Good shooting.phurley | |||
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My experience with the round is not extensive, but I don't believe that's the question. I know I can't get close to 3250 with handloads and 160 grain bullets, and I haven't heard of anyone else who can either. So if you know of anyone who has, please let me know how they're doing it. What's your experience with the round? "No one but he who has partaken thereof can understand the keen delight of hunting in lonely lands." | |||
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You should try those loads through someone else's chrono to verify the speed. If it is actually giving you speeds faster than a 7RUM, you have some very very hot loads. Good Luck Reloader | |||
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Yes, I plan to try again over another chrono. I've heard of others getting the same velocities with these loads. "No one but he who has partaken thereof can understand the keen delight of hunting in lonely lands." | |||
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COphil ----- I have zero experience with the 7mmWSM but have reloaded for years and know that a good reloader can surpass any factory round ever shot, given enough time and shooting. Drawing conclusions without extensive experience is easy to do with any round. The WSM rounds are normaly hot from the factory, but with my 270 WSM I am getting far more speed than the books and factory rounds show. ----- The first step would be to verify the speeds of the factory rounds with several groups, not just one or two, or a few shots. Then proceed with the reloading process and figure a two month project. Another thing to consider is the difference in barrels and what the norm is, sometimes an exceptionally fast barrel comes along and blows the averages. I have two custom rifles of the same chambering and the difference in barrel speed is 50-150 fps per load, with everything the same. ----- Final thoughts -- If I could not take the rifle and beat the factory speeds and accuracy with reloads, it would be the first out of dozens already that have been my experience to load for. There usually are exceptions to the rules and this may be one of those, but you would have to prove it to me to convince me. Good shooting.phurley | |||
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Thanks, Phurley. I'm not trying to be a wiseacre, it's just that I've been asking around and haven't found anyone yet who knows how to beat this particular load for velocity. If you don't mind me asking, what weight bullets are you using in the .270 WSM and what powder(s)to exceed the factory stuff? I'd heard an opinion or two that it may be easier to exceed factory velocities with lighter bullets than heavy ones for a given WSM chambering, has that been your experience? "No one but he who has partaken thereof can understand the keen delight of hunting in lonely lands." | |||
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COphil ----- I am using 130 grain North Forks for my best speeds with the .270 WSM and if memory serves me without checking my charts RL-22 is the powder with Fed 210M primer (3450 fps). I don't want to give grains from memory by chance it might be off slightly. North Fork no longer makes the bullet and I am hordeing my remaining supply, but I can nearly reach that with Barnes TSX and Sierra GK. I also shoot the 140 and 150 grain bullets some 100-150 fps faster than given speeds. My chronograph is an Oehler 35P to those who might wonder. ----- I would really like to try the 7mmWSM, that is the only one I have not shot. I think I have a buddy who has one, I might see if I can work on it. I will say that todays factory ammo is very accurate if 1-1.5 MOA is good enough, particularly if you are speaking of Superior Ammo, which is in my opinion custom instead of factory. Good luck and good shooting.phurley | |||
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Thanks Phurley. It seems you like the regular Federal Primers rather than the magnums, did magnums give you more variation? Also, here's another question related to Federal factory ammo. this time in .308 Win. I tested some of their Premium HE loads with 180 grain NPs, and they got right around 2,750. I'd like to duplicate that. Anybody getting 2,750 in a .308 with 180s? "No one but he who has partaken thereof can understand the keen delight of hunting in lonely lands." | |||
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COphil, You probably will get a (better) response if you started a new thread and asked your question. | |||
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COphil ----- I use the Fed 215M primer if the manual calls for a Magnum primer, with a few exceptions. For example with the .300 Winny the 215M will blow my group from one hole to 1-1.5 inch, therefore I use the 210M, the same is true of the .270 WSM. I use the 215M on all Magnum loads above 70 grains of powder regardless of what it is otherwise. All the short mags get the 210M. Why the Fed primers, they are the most accurate for me. Good shooting.phurley | |||
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I only began metallic rifle reloading last year, working up practice loads for my .375 Holland. I used factory Remington A Frames on the hunt and some in practice and found them to be consistently very accurate, MOA or less. I carried custom tungsten solids from Superior that shot to the same POI. Maybe when I gain more experience, I'll hunt reloads. My practice loads give excellent accuracy, but I'm using Hornady Interbonds and I would not take to the field in search of dangerous game with that bullet. Hence, the factory loads, which worked great. | |||
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I am going to expand on my earlier cryptic post. I think using handloads for hunting (particularly dangerous game) is an excellent solution to the wrong problem. I handload for practice ammo, but always hunt with factory ammo. IMO, handloads would be preferred in a deer blind, but not on an elk hunt or in Africa. The main problems with factory ammo appear to be speed and accuracy. Even with factory ammo, my rifle is more accurate from hunting positions than I am, and a few more ft/sec is nice but not essential. So handloads solve a problem I dont have. (I am well inside 2" at 100 yds with federal accubonds from a 7mm mag.) The potential problems with reloads include ammo not fitting the chamber, or ammo loaded too long, which can leave bullets stuck in the barrel and powder in the action. Also too much pressure and a stuck action. I have never hunted dangerous game, but if I am trying to figure out if the black spot in the bush 50 yds ahead is a cape buffalo, and if so which end, I dont care about tack driving accuracy, but really really would like to know the next round will feed. Liberals believe that criminals are just like them and guns cause crimes. Conservatives believe criminals are different and that it is the criminals that cause crimes. Maybe both are right and the solution is to keep guns away from liberals. | |||
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Corax ----- The perceived problems you describe for a handloader are not present for experienced shooters. A handloader would never go in the field with a load that has not been tested many times over, with the length and fit and bullet perfect for the game hunted. Most hunters at AR are super fanatical about their loads to the degree that their loads are much more precise than any factory load you might fire in a rifle. Cases trimmed exactly as needed, bullets seated perfectly, bullets chosen with utmost care to fit the game, are givens in our game. It would be an insult to have to use the factory fodder for hunting. We fire thousands of rounds each year to achieve the best loads possible. The fact that we hunt dangerous game does not enter in, we are going to be shooting our loads at whatever target is out there, this is just our nature. Finally, if you think practising with reloads and hunting with factory is what it is all about, you have a lot to learn about the precise reloading that most here experience daily. Good shooting.phurley | |||
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I would agree with Phurley, and I've only been handloading for a couple of years, so I'm not as good as the rest of these guys. I'm not opposed to hunting with factory ammo. because there sure is some good stuff out there. But all of the problems you mentioned, Corax, are 100% within the control of the handloader. With factory loads, you're trusting someone else to have gotten it right. And I think most handloaders are even more fanatical about loading ammo. for a hunt than for their "normal" shooting; brass measured and trimmed with more care than usual, every loaded cartridge measured for OAL, only the best brass used, charges measured more carefully than normal, and so on and so forth. Contrast that with factory loads, not many factory cartridges get measured by hand with a caliper before they're used. And the most fun part of all is that with handloads, you get accuracy. Where you're "well inside 2" at 100 yards" with factory stuff, that would be not be good enough for most handloaders. You never know when you're gonna need all the accuracy you can get, for a long shot or just one where you pull it a little. "No one but he who has partaken thereof can understand the keen delight of hunting in lonely lands." | |||
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Corax, Keep shooting whatever you feel comfortable with. As for me, a dyed in the wool handloading crank, it never EVER crossed my mind to seek out appropriate factory ammo for my African safari. Why? Because of something I have followed all my life, "If you want something done right, do it yourself." I'd be ashamed of myself if I called myself a handloader, and then when the chips are down, resort to using factory ammo cause I didn't trust my own stuff to do the job. That would make me a two-faced hypocrite, wouldn't it? Besides, am I to assume that a custom ammo maker can make better ammo for my 338-06 Ackley Improved than I can? Where does one go to purchase factory 25-06 Rem ammo with 85gr Barnes X bullets? You'll never know the personal satisfaction of harvesting a big game animal with ammo you assembled with your own two hands. But maybe the means to an end doesn't matter to you; only the end does. | |||
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If for some reason I had to use factory loaded ammo instead of my own handloads it would take something away from the hunt. I can also guarantee that my handloads will have absolutely no problem fitting and firing in the rifle they were loaded for, and even if I don't need the enhanced accuracy of handloads it sure doesn't hurt and only adds confidence. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Factory Ammo or Handloads for Hunting?
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