I have one...craving the other (don't need...just want ). With appropriate bullets, is one caliber "better" than the other for the stated purpose or is it pretty much a wash?

Personaly Alan I feel it is a wash-if pressed though no doubt I'd go 06 with a good 200.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

ALAN ---- I don't know what .358 you are talking about. I shoot a .358 STA that in my humble opinion is an excellent Elk rifle. A 250 grain North Fork bullet at 3000 fps is nothing to sneeze at, or a 270 grain North Fork at 2950 fps is quite formidable. The later combo got three Elk for my son and myself this year. Good shooting.

Alan
At 200 yards and under,assuming proper bullet placement,the elk won't know the difference.

Personally I like the 338 WM.

Jeff

Thanks for the responses -

The .358 in question is a Browning 81'.

I have used a pre 64 M70 in 358 for Elk with no problem using Sierria 225 grain spitzers. The 06 is more versitile however.

Alan --- By all means buy the one you don't have, and answer your own question. Any excuse for another rifle added to the collection. Your Browning would be in .358 Win. Good shooting.

Phurley, that .358 STA seems like a great cartridge; are there options for those who don't load their own?????

Regards,
Craig

For the stated criteria I like the 358.

I started out with four boxes of various bullets for my STA loaded by Quality Cartridge. It gave me something to break in the barrel with and shoot while learning to reload. Superior Ammo also loads for this. Reloading is the only way to make shooting cost effective and get the most out of the cartridge.
Wow, I've been loading my own for all of about 6 months and sound like an know-it-all. Sorry.

Craig ----- I buy all my brass from Superior Ammo out of Sturgis South Dakota, they also produce the STA loaded ammo with your choice of many different bullets. They sell sample packs of ten cartridges for you to experiment with in determining what your rifle handles best. I have found their brass to be top notch, totally prepped for you to load. Good shooting.

My vote would go to an '06 with a 200 grain Speer or a 220 grain Hornady RN.

Handloading, you can get the 200 grain traveling at 2800 fps plus with a 24 inch barrel, and with a 220 grain RN, 2600 fps is easily obtained.

High sectional densities will penetrate quite a bit.

While I have no experience with the 358 Winchester, I do have quite a bit with the 30/06 and it is definitely up to the task, especially with the 200 and 220 grain bullets.

Both would work well,I have alot of experience with the 35 whelen alittle more potent than the 358.Go with the 358win,Something different is always good and a bigger hole could never be bad.The .358 cal bullets traveling at that speed are potent!No flies on the 06 but everyone has one.

When I saw this thread I thought, "30-06 with a 200 Partition"... my buddy Mark D. beat me to it! The 06 is more versatile than the 358, period. To think that "limiting" yourself to 200 yard shots is reality isn't 300+ yard shots can come and an 06 can handle that situation easier.

BA

There are no fly's on the 358 for versatilily.It would work fine out to 250yds with a 225gr nosler or X bullet started at alittle better than 2500fps!How many hunters practice enough to make precise 300yd hits consistently?Maybe 1 in 100.If you were really concerned with 300yd plus shots take a 300 mag or something like the 340 wby.

The 30-06 with a 200 or 220 gr. bullet at about 2700 FPS give or take is simply a better killer than the 358 Win. IMO and based on using both..

The 358 Win. never really impressed me, sure it will kill a deer or elk, but its range is limited as is its use...the 06 limits all there somewhere I suppose but I have yet to find them or anything that I would not hunt with the 06 and the proper bullet....

Bottom line is the 358 Win is a decent enough gun but its no 30-06 in the hunting fields of the world, its a good brush country deer rifle IMO..

griz, if you can't hit an elk at 300 yards you probably shouldn't be shooting at elk, period. With a decent rest a 300 yard shot just isn't that far... an elk is a darn big animal. I've had the 358 but I honestly can't see limiting myself with its rainbow trajectory. A 30-06 is plenty flat for 300 yard (and beyond) shots.

Brad
Yes I can easily hit an elk at 300yds or moose as I most often hunt.Take alook at the range the next time your their,half of the people I see shoot can't keep their shots inside 4"@100yds.Anyone can hit a elk or moose at 300 but can they place them in the vitals everytime.People are always so concern if a cartridge can drop an elk at 300-500yds,can people no longer stock?Once shots start flying at 300-400yds the chances of a wounded animal skyrocket especially shots from field positions at -10 celcius.I know guys who take all their game with a 45/70 but these guys have their stocking down pat.

griz, all I'm saying is there are plenty of times when an opportunity can arrise up to and beyond 300 yards where stalking closer isn't possible. That's reality. A trained rifleman can take advantage of the situation if condition's favor the shot. I'm not talking about Joe E. Yahoo. If a guy wants to limit himself, fine. Me, I'd rather stack things in my favor as much as possible as opportunities can be hard won besides being few and far between.

Regards,

BA

You gotta love these generous velocities thrown around to prove a point.

If you want 220+ grains then the 35 caliber is better suited. Better bullets available and more efficent. Most 30 cal bullets that heavy are either rn or semi spitzer which isnt going to gain jack over the same weight 358 spitzer in any way.

I expect that 99% of the 30-06 shooters posting here, were they to strike out tommorow morning with their 06, it would be loaded with 165-180's. Which is as it should be.

Fact is there is VERY little difference between this debate and the 06 vs the Whelen. The topic asks about 200 yd Elk, for that Ill take the 358 all day long and twice on sunday..

[ 11-29-2003, 10:27: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

This is not all that complicated when you just look at the facts.

Both the 358 and 30-06 drive a 220 to 225 gr Nosler Partitions 2500 fps and the BC's are so close they make NO difference. Both are 5 inches low at 200, sighted in at 100 yds.

If you want penetration, go with the '06. If you want knock down, go with the 358.

For dangerous game, the argument ends...the 358 Win easily duplicates the 9.3X62 with heavy bullets and the 30-06 does not.

If you want to run some numbers I need the muzzle velocities for each round. The bullet for the .358 Winchester could be the 225 Partition with a Ci of .43 and for the 06 the 200 Partition is logical at .481 for it's coeficient.

Velocities in the Nosler, Sierra, Pacific and Speer manuals seem to show that a .358 Win with a 22" barrel will reach 2400 fps with a 225 gr bullet. There is that one load in Nosler #5 with IMR 4895 at 2528 fps with a 23" barrel. I am going to throw that out of the calculations. But if someone has data on the 225 gr bullet from their 22" barreled .358 Win. Then please step forward.

Next we need to select what numbers count. I used to use kinetic energy but it's no longer popular as a factor in killing effect today.

Since both bullets are big enough perhaps a minimum velocity that would expand each might be a criteria? If that's the decision and 1900 fps is minimum then the .358 Win reaches that velocity at 270 yds and the 30-06 at 440 yds.

The maximum PBR with a 10" circle is 290 yds for the .358 and 315 yds for the 30-06 using these inputs. What do you think?

Wstrn, he's talking about the 358 Win which is quite a different cartridge than the Whelen. I'd sooner have the 200 Partition in the 06' @ 2,650 than anything in the 358 Win. However, a 250 grainer in the Whelen at 2,600 is nothing to sneer at! I still favor a 250 grainer in a 338 WM @ 2,750

Comparing the 358 to the 9.3x62 is ludicrus..there is no comparison...

My 9.3x62 will push a 320 gr. Woodleigh bullet at 2450 FPS, a 286 gr. bullet at 2520 FPS and a 300 gr. Swift bullet at 2500 FPS, and a 250 Barnes X at 2700 plus FPS, with handloads and that are near but not quite max.

The 9.3 is .366 as compared to 358....The 9.3 x 62 is basically a 375 H&H, not a 358 Win. and the 9.3x62 performs on Buffalo accordingly, just like a 375 H&H....

Ray,

Of course the 9.3X62 is more powerful than a .358 Win but the .358 is far more suitable for woods hunting in the USA as it can be made up into a light handy rifle.

I have a couple of .375's and have carried them in the woods. They are a burden due to the bulk and weight. Of course it's fun pretending that a Cape Buffalo will charge but the biggest thing we have around here is some dumb moose that you can take down with a 30-30 if need be.

The number of hunters here who carry either cartridge here is minimal.

In fact how can you say that the 9.3X62 is just right for Africa when you come down on the side of the 404?

It's all fun however.

i am w/ ray on this one.

.358 if u are in the woods, inder 200 yds shots.

.30-.06 if out in the open with a 200 gr. n.p., shoots plenty flat.

one thing that wasn't mentioned is that the .358 will yield a much bigger wound channel. bigger diameter and face. possibily a bigger exit wound. better tracking.

options are broader and better if u handload, i don't.

cold zero

Savage 99,

My 30-06 is as handy as any 358...I have owned a couple to Sav 99s n 358 and found I liked the .308 better, and prefer the 06 to either of them when it gets down to the wire..just my opinnion, no one is required to agree.

I don't understand your comparison to the 404 and the 9.3x62, that makes no since to me as to where you are coming from...

I would and have used a 9.3 on buffalo successfully and said it rates with a 375, certainly not with a 404..

I know that I would not hunt Buffalo with a 358 unless thats all that was handy, in which case I would use a 8x57 with military ball if I had to and have btw....

Ray,

Of course it's you choice vrs mine but the 99 Savage is a really neat woods rifle. As you know when fired the recoil (from a .358 of course ) will cause the lever to push on the fingers and the action will start to open. Thus the rifle with it's short action will repeat shots about as fast as any manual rifle I know of. Plus the 99's carry so well with thier flat sides. I have as many 30-06's as anyone needs including a Ruger 1A and the feeling I get when toting a 99 F in .358 Winchester stands above that of any rifle that I can think of for my neck of the woods.

However my comment on what Ray Atkinson, of all people, would prefer for any African game was a reach and I got called on it.

There is a similarity however on the two rounds when one is in my woods and the 9.3X62 is in Africa. Thats the basis of my comment.

Given the fact that the .30-06 may be one of the most popular big game cartridge in the USA should tell most of us something about it. The .30-06 became one of the top cartridges in Alaska even before the .375 H&H, and nowadays, it is still a popular cartridge next to the .338WM and the .300WM. These three are the most common up here, far ahead of all other cartridges.

We may reload for both the .36-06 and the .358, but one of the most useful options is ammo availability, and the .30-06 is ahead by a very wide margin. Just look at the ballistics pages in the back of the Guns & Ammo Annual where the lists of factory loads for the .30-06 covers two and one-half pages (two and one-half pages of line after line ammo loads!!!).

And don't forget that Federal 180-grain NOS HE produces around 2,880 fps at the muzzle, which translates to about 2,300 fps at 300 yards, and 2,150 foot-pound. Bullet drop with the rifle sighted +1.7" at 100 yards equals to -7.2" at 300 yards. Then there is Light Magnum ammo for the .30-06.

That said, my favorite cartridge is "The Alaskan" which was produced in 1958, and that with a 250-grain bullet has similar bullet trajectory as the "great" .30-06 with a 180-grain bullet.

[ 12-07-2003, 00:28: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

AFTER 40-50 deer, one bear and one moose with a .358 I have LOTS of confidence in them. Have had several different makes and models of rifles in the caliber.

Have taken deer out past 300 with it so it is NOT just a short leg cartridge.

The Speer 250gr spitzer just seems like it was created for the round. In all the game I have ever shot with it I have never recovered a round. All have gone completely through...so is that good or bad bullet performance?

I like BIG bullets for any game more then 100 pounds..just because I do.

THe BLR in .358 I purchased 3 years ago was used exclusively for elk and had 11 of them to it's credit before the owner just got too old to lug it up the mountains any more. He used the same 250 Speer bullet and load I always have. (small world?)

I vote .358 over '06

Lawcop--not to sound like a total pain in the rump-but I am curious about your experience on elk with an 06?

Thanks and have a great day.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

Savage 99,
The best brush deer/elk rifle I ever owned was a Sauer 9.3x62 with a 20" barrel full rib, half oct/half round...I made a nice Obendorf style stock for it with schnable forend and it was a fantastic gun...It had double set triggers and a good trigger pull without the set..I love the set trigger for offhand running shots.

Problem is I took it to Dallas in 2002 for display purposes at DSC and some oil tycoon from La. had to have it, he was happy and I was depressed, but my wallet was much, much thicker...

Yes, I dearly love the M-99 Savages in the EG and F models...I have a couple of them one in a 250 Sav. another 308 that looks like it was dragged through hell and back, but it shoots under and inch every time for 3 shots, so it has a home.....

I have used the 308 quite a bit, the 350 Rem Mag [in a 20" bbl] a little, and a 9,3x74R quite a bit. As much as I like the 308 [which is very close to the 30-06] the 9,3 has proven far superior.
However the 30-06 with quality 200 and 220 grain bullets is very effective. Likewise the 358 with 250gr bullets would be an excellent choice.
Pick the rifle you like the best.
Medium bores with medium velocity do not get much press, which is a shame as I think they may be the best hunting cartridges around.
Based on my experience the last 5 years a 9,3x74R double rifle may be the best of all, subject to some range limitations.