Continuing to fight whitetail frustration ...

I will describe an area in general terms -- I'm thinking of a specific spot but as you'll see I could be describing a large portion of Virginia and some other neighboring states (and almost all of West Virginia).

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to tell me how you would go about hunting it. I would be interested in your ideas on efficient scouting, but I would be more interested in how you'd hunt it if you were dropped there an hour or so before sunrise with just your gun and the clothes and other essentials on your back.

TOPOGRAPHY: A ridge running from SSW to NNE, about 3.5 miles total length and half as wide, part of a system of similar ridges that runs for, oh, 1000 miles or so. The ridge has two prominent summits, both around 2500 to 2600 feet above sea level, with a saddle between them about 2200. Total climb to the summit, from the roads that surround the ridge, is 1000 to 1500 feet. There is a very small stream in the valley to the west.

VEGETATION: Varies from scrub pine at the summit to ferns on the lower flats to mountain laurel on NW slope, but predominantly oak and similar hardwoods, all at least second or third growth due to past logging and farming operations. Lots of hardwood whips -- sproing, OW! The ground is completely covered in dead hardwood leaves.

WEATHER: Prevailing wind is from the northwest, usually 10 mph +/- 5, but due to eddies in the valleys and thermal updrafts, the prevailing wind at ground level is generally uphill, regardless of direction. The state is in a drought; there has been little recent precipitation and while there is a chance of snow, none is really expected. The winter has been unusually warm but that is changing. Nighttime lows are now in the 'teens and 20s; daytime highs in the mid-30s to low 40s.

HUNTER PRESSURE: This is a public area but it is the late muzzleloader season; the two-week general firearms season closed 3-4 weeks ago. However, fall turkey season (for which both shotguns and rifles are legal) is still open, and so are a number of small game and upland bird seasons. Even though it is a Saturday, you don't see any other hunters or their vehicles but you will hear shots periodically throughout the day. The area is rimmed by small private landholdings.

DEER SIGN: In a flat area of ferns & hardwood regen at the NW base of the ridge, you find a large number of old scrapes & rubs & droppings. There are also tracks and old droppings in a steep section of mountain laurel going up the NW face. There are tracks and old droppings along the summit, and in an open, flat area of oak forest to the SW (adjoining private property and the road) you find a line of VERY enthusiastic scrapes. There are signs of heavy feeding by deer and turkey in various stands of oak throughout the area.

ACCESS: There are paved or unpaved roads in the valleys all around the base of the ridge. However, there are no major trails going up the mountain.

Let me know if you need any more information to answer and I will try to provide it.

If you know the spot I'm talking about, I'll buy you a beer next time I'm out there. If I shoot a deer, I'll buy you a case.

John

Find the best food source.
Try and do some long range scouting with optics. That should tell you, where, when, and what. Figureout how and when you can set up without letting the deer know your comings and goings. Somewhere in that area this place is to be found and that is the tuff part. It is never easy and that is the hook.

Good Luck

HBH

John,

go to www.topozone.com and post a link showing the topo map of the area. I think it will let you do that but to be honest have never tried it myself. I'm sure if we can see a map a lot more things such as water sources and slopes will become more apparent.

I also would hunt the food source this time of year, if there are White Oak accorn left on the ground then a patch of White Oaks would be a good place to start looking. Deer are starting to bunch up now, yesterday I seen 6 does and 3 bucks feeding together and have noticed through the years that once they bunch up in the winter they usually don't go very far from a food source until it's gone.

You would find me between the thickest cover and food source preferably upslope to take advantage of the topo induced thermals.

Well to answer your question "how would I hunt it". I would go to the freshest sign that you or I found and then I would look for the heaviest cover I could find ie: Pine thicket, Mountain Laural thicket, overgrown cut over, etc. You mentioned this is late season, so you can scrap that Jackie Bushmen "food source" non-sence and do some real deer hunting. (we ain't on a deer ranch here) Besides you (and I) are in Virginia, the acorns (wich were not great this year) are gone, and it's not likely that hunting some agriculture field is going to be productive this time of year. Most of the deer in our area are being reduced to browse. Any way, late season to me means two things, first forget the rubs and scrapes as your first priority (most will be nocturnal) First priority will be finding the type of cover I mentioned earlier, then finding the trails in and out of it. Second will be fresh sign ie: tracks, droppings, and sightings near the thicket. Now any scapes, and rubs you find in this area will be more usefull.
Once you find this area "don't trop around through it". Hunt the edges, trails going in and out of the thicket. It's best to keep your back to the thicket but you have to remember the wind. You can't have your scent blowing into them and expect them to come out to you. Also Evening hunts will be more productive.
Hope this helps. Mark

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[This message has been edited by Mark G (edited 12-28-2001).]

Mark, it's late season not late winter, if you can't find a "food source" this time of year you or the deer one have a bad problem. I have spent 2 to 5 hours a day almost every day in the woods for the last 2 winters, my post was based on what I have seen in W.V wich shouldn't be that much different than Virginia.

Thickest cover I saw would probably be the mountain laurel on the NW slope.

However, there were no fresh droppings (that I saw, anyway).

I agree that "starting at the top" is good advice. The practical question is, how would you get to the top of the hill, in the dark, over a bed of dried leaves, without spooking every single critter in the place?

Dark wouldn't be an issue for an evening hunt, obviously. For purposes of discussion, assume you're going to be out there all day -- where would you be morning and evening, and in between?

John

Stand hunt the sadle between the two summits. There should be some trails to watch over and near a popular food source. Deer will cross the ridge at the sadle. I believe I would stay on the northeast side of the sadle looking southwest across the sadle if the wind generally blows from the northwest.

I think this being the late season we are dealing w/educated, mainly nocturnal, post-rut deer? My experience would tell me to scout the area in the valley next to the WATER, (and green grass?) Find a travel route that offers an early morning stand as they make their way back to beds. The wind will dictate where they lay...but knobs, outcroppings, or high vantage points are where deer like to bed. Hunt there early! You didn't indicate which deer we are hunting...bucks or does. Does usually run trails, bucks do not always. Another of the methods I use, is to position myself on escape routes the deer will use when they are bumped/pushed by other hunters using the area's access trails. If the turkey hunters are up on the ridge, do the deer get pushed down to the river bottoms? The private land offer a refuge, or is it also hunted? Is the river bottom thick cover? I'd start focusing on that river bottom as a key component. Sparkman

HeavyVarmint, I didn't say he could not find a food source, I just ment that in late season hunting that is secondary to good cover. I don't know about you but I am not placing my stand in a wide open stand of oaks or on a bean field this time of year. I bow hunt, muzzleload, and centerfire rifle, so Im in the woods a little bit myself. Usually after thanksgiving things get tough, the deer are spooked and the gig is up so to speak. I have been doing surveys for the VDGIF for the last several seasons and this have been my findings/experience.

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Road Hunt!

Daryl

I would try hunting between the water and some private land that had beans or corn.
I'd scout for a major run and then more closely for old rubs or thick impenetrable thickets nearby. I'd wait for a crosswind blowing from the private land to the water and set up where I could slip in close without making any noise. I'd hunt the public side but I'd try to find out who held the private land and check with them.
I'd be constantly looking for large tracks crossing the path in this area.

An area such as this that features security cover, food and water will hold deer. The problem I encounter is late season the deer will not move during daylight hours unless they are nearly stepped on. One must be very careful shooting in dim light, of course. Good Luck.

The "frustration factor" is just part of the fun! Try a .303 British Jungle Carbine to ease the frustration!

Mark G, I agree with what you are saying, in fact I agreed with your first post but took offense to the Jackie Bushmen comment, I doubt very seriosly that many if any of the T.V. hunters actually have any hunting skill. I still stand behind my food source comment though, they will be in thick cover but not far from where ever there feeding so if he can find where and what they are feeding on then he's getting very warm. 2 years ago in late Feb. I watched 7 deer that were holed up in a briar thickit in the bottom of a deep hollow for a week, by the time they left out there was no thicket left. Ol well, it would be hard for anyone to give little more than general information on what to look for without actually scouting the area.

Just a couple more pieces of information in response to the questions you've posed --

1. The water isn't much to write home about -- the stream at the 2 places I crossed it was about 2 feet wide and 6 inches deep. Can't hunt too close to it, anyway, because it's usually within about 20 yds. of the road and crosses private land repeatedly.

2. Most of the private land I saw is heavily posted. (At least it's heavily posted on the side facing the road; on the way out in the afternoon I came down a ravine and found myself basically in someone's backyard. Seems to me if I lived somewhere like that I'd mark the property line all the way around.)

3. I think I forgot to mention that when I came down that ravine I found a fresh, large track in the dirt -- probably spooked him with my cussing when I got tangled up in some thorny stuff.

4. The private land in this area is not agricultural -- way too much of it's vertical. Mostly looks like folks who work somewhere else but like living out there with the birds & bees.

heavy varmint -- I guarantee you that what you see in WV isn't that different from the area I'm talking about, since it's only about 3 miles from the state line.

John

HeavyVarmint, Looking back there was a little "attitude" in my first post that was not nessesary. It was not directed at you but rather my growing observation of hunters making poor stand location choices, this time of year. So I appologize for offending in my post. I also agree with what you are saying. If deer don't eat they don't live, it's just that simple. But they will definitly eat at night (in the obvious food sources) if pressured by hunters, and as you mentioned browse in those thickets until they are gone during the day.
Ps. How are things up there in Beckley,W.V.
A man I knew as a boy lives there, who got me intrested in rifles and such. His name is Cecil Barker, ever run into him?

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Mark G, things here are fine, 25 degrees with a little snow on the ground, bow season is still in but ends tommorow. I guess I'm going to try my hand at coyotees for the first time this winter as they are starting to get plentifull in an area where a friend lives, that should be fun. I agree that spooked deer can be very hard to hunt to, I have some land behind my house that only me and a friend hunt and my dad bought a shell of a log cabin with about 100 acres and we finished the cabin real nice just to have a place to get away and hunt but we didn't know at the time that there was a serious poblem with poaching were his land is, we've stopped alot of it but can't be there all the time, anyway hunting behind my house and hunting at his cabin is like hunting two different kinds of animals were the deer out there have just gotten so weary from all the poaching.

I do know a few Barkers but not Cecil, the ones I know are from around Eccles. I have some family that live just outside of Harrisonburg, that anywhere near you.