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Can you really drop a bullet wieght with the TSX?
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted
I have always been a relatievly heavy for caliber bullet guy

6.5 @ 140
270 @ 150
7mm @ 160
308 @ 180

Do you find that the TSXs @ one weight down provide ample penetration?


Mike

Legistine actu? Quid scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10150 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Mike, I've basically been with you on the heavy for caliber bullets like you listed.

I only load TSX bullets in two cartridges: .375 Ultra mag and .300 Wby.

The first time I took my .375 RUM to Africa, I loaded 300 gr TSX's, and they worked great on everything that I shot from bushbuck to buffalo.

The second time I took the .375 RUM to Africa, I loaded it with 270 gr TSX bullets, and they worked just as great on everything that I shot from steenbok to eland, kudu, and gemsbok.

I've worked up loads in my .300 Wby for both 180 gr and 168 gr TSX bullets. I've shot 3 shot MOA groups with both loads.

Not really a fair test, but the only animals that I've shot so far with the .300 Wby were blackbuck, scimitar horned oryx and aoudad in Texas with the 168 gr TSX bullets. All shot at about 100 yds and were practically instant one shot kills with complete broadside penetration.

I plan on using the .300 Wby for elk this year, and don't have any qualms about either bullet. I guess it will be the one that shoots the tightest group when I zero it just before the season opens in October.


NRA Endowment Life Member
 
Posts: 1637 | Location: Boz Angeles, MT | Registered: 14 February 2006Reply With Quote
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its not how heavy its how long. load the tsx that is the same leingth as your most accurate load they function from speed anyway and the only difference is usually an improvement.


VERITAS ODIUM PARIT
 
Posts: 1624 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 04 June 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Do you find that the TSXs @ one weight down provide ample penetration?


Yep. I'll put my 168 TSX/TTSX in the 30.06 up against any 180 grain at any velocity. The 110 TSX/TTSX is the same length as a 130 Nosler solid base in my 270. My bro has put down a lot of deer with that 110...much more than me. I've taken a few head of game with it and always had passthroughs and drops in most with ample blood.

I gave a custom 270 to my bud in Colorado. He asked me what I'd recommend for a do all bullet, even if they hunt elk. I advised the 130 TSX. He has a friend that loads for him using H4831SC. Adam, his wife, kids, his dad, have all used that rifle and combo for their game since he took possession of that rifle in 2007. Not one recovered bullet but all game recovered easily.

I used to be heavy for cal and still am depending on bullet...as example, if Berger, I go heavy. If Barnes, I go lighter. I think my brother told me his longest shot to date with the 110 TSX on a SC whitetail was roughly 330 yards. DRT. It's a "point-n-shoot" rifle with the speed that 110 is going over 4350 powder to about 350 yards. Big Grin


Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns
 
Posts: 7906 | Registered: 05 July 2004Reply With Quote
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Doc,

Don't hold back...tell me how you really feel.


Mike

Legistine actu? Quid scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10150 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Doc,

Don't hold back...tell me how you really feel.


OK....YES DAMMIT! YES!!!!! How was that?


Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns
 
Posts: 7906 | Registered: 05 July 2004Reply With Quote
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I know for sure that I like (and trust) 130 grain TTSXs a lot more than any 180 cup and core in 30-06. I have yet to experience anything other than outstanding performance of any TSX/TTSX bullet going through flesh and could not say I have seen any noticeable difference in wound channels between 85 grain 6mm bullets. What few photos I have seen of 45, 53 and 70 grain TSXs in .224 caliber look for all intents and purposes identical to what I have seen quite a few times now with .308 caliber TSX/TTSxs at 130 or 150 grains.

I have my suspicions that the .243 85 grain TSX or 80 grain TTSX might well be very comparable to the mid range 30 cal cup and cores if not actually better.
 
Posts: 964 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 25 January 2008Reply With Quote
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http://forums.accuratereloadin...681083031#1681083031

I took a 600# nilgai with a 168gr TSX that penetrated 3+'. I use them in everything from 70gr 223 to 180gr 300H&H. I still run heavy because i believe more is better and you can not over pentrate an animal.

Perry
 
Posts: 2249 | Location: South Texas | Registered: 01 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Yes, they certainly do. My sons and I have taken 2 mule deer and 4 elk with the 168gr TTSXs and haven't recovered a single slug. All animals had 100% bullet penetration with shots ranging from 100 to almost 500yds. A good friend just returned from Namibia where he used his 300H&H on plains game. He had a mixture of 168gr and 180gr TTSXs so he could compare...end result was no difference. All bullets sailed right on through the various species he shot. Another man was there hunting with a 375H&H loaded with 270gr TSXs and he had similar results. You don't need to go heavy with this type of bullet.
 
Posts: 1148 | Location: The Hunting Fields | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
I have always been a relatievly heavy for caliber bullet guy


Spot on for cup and core and you want penetration.

quote:
Do you find that the TSXs @ one weight down provide ample penetration?


Yes.

53gr TSX 22-250 over three dozen deer/antelope and haven't recovered one.

110gr TSX 270 WCF probably a dozen deer. Recovered two with 100% weight retention.
Severe quartering away and straight away presentations. On previously shot deer and bullets recovered in neck on mature whitetail bucks.

130gr TSX 270 WCF Quartering to shot presentation. Recovered one from the offside rear ham. Broke femur of a mature buck. I believe that had it not hit the bone after penetrating 2 plus feet, it would have exited. 100% weight retention

Old school 140gr Barnes X 270 WCF Blew through a cow elk, not recovered.

210gr TSX 338-06 on about 1/2 dozen elk never recovered one. One shot was quartering to. Broke front ball socket, penetrated through the vitals and liver, exited behind the ribs.

Still playing with them in my 9.3x64 Brennekes. I have not found a load for the 250gr TSX/banded solid yet. May have to try the 286's.

Will try them in my 404 Jeffery, when I get around to developing loads. But Obviously will not be able to drop a bullet weight since they only make 400gr bullets.

I am planning on shooting 140gr Interlocks out of new sporterized Swede mannlicher carbine with 18" barrel. It wears a peep sight so long distance shooting is not going to happen. I am going to be pushing it to make 2500fps. I can't imagine the Hornady bullet not performing at those moderate velocities.
 
Posts: 2034 | Location: Black Mining Hills of Dakota | Registered: 22 June 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by SDhunter:
quote:
I have always been a relatievly heavy for caliber bullet guy


Spot on for cup and core and you want penetration.


I would agree with that but for the 150 speer bullet from a 270 @ 130 yards on a whitetail buck in MO. No exit with soft tissue hit only. But it did penetrate to the offside skin. And, the 220 corelokt from my friend's 30.06 at a 185 pound black bear at 8 yards...no exit there either but you won't find a more perfectly mushroomed slug either.


Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns
 
Posts: 7906 | Registered: 05 July 2004Reply With Quote
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Ok...I get it...I will drop to the 168 grn STXs in 30 cal rifles


Mike

Legistine actu? Quid scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10150 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Ok...I get it...I will drop to the 168 grn STXs in 30 cal rifles


I think you'll be impressed. I had excellent luck with Reloder 19 and the TTSX. I stuffed the case with more powder than Barnes had listed and no pressure signs evident. 210M primer, seated about 45 off lands. Curiously, the 168 TSX preferred H4350 when I first loaded it in 2004.

I got 2 bears in BC. One fell to the 180 AB, the other to the 168 TTSX. Here is the latter:



Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns
 
Posts: 7906 | Registered: 05 July 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Ok...I get it...I will drop to the 168 grn STXs in 30 cal rifles


Yep TSX, TTSX 168/165gr. No bad choices there.
 
Posts: 2034 | Location: Black Mining Hills of Dakota | Registered: 22 June 2005Reply With Quote
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I have recovered four 250 gr X's launched from a 9.3x62 from eland, kudu, gemsbuck and bushbuck, one 185 gr TSX via a 338-06 from an elk and one 225 gr TSX via 35 Whelen from a moose. Frankly, I was quite surprised to do so given all that I read. That said, all animals dropped quite quickly.
 
Posts: 1577 | Location: Either far north Idaho or Hill Country Texas depending upon the weather | Registered: 26 March 2005Reply With Quote
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Mike,

I generally concur with the advice in many of the posts. To get similar penetration, you can in fact drop down one bullet weight when using TSX bullets.

I load TSX or TTSX bullets for .257 Roberts, .308, .270, 30.06. 300 WSM, 300 Win Mag, 325 WSM, 375 H+H, .416 Rigby, and probably a few others I can't remember right now.

Most western game in the US have been taken with the various 30's and 270. Having always shot 180 grains in the 30's and 150's in the .277 prior to Barnes, I started there, and did in fact drop down a step for each caliber. In most casses, however, I am now back to using the 180's in the 30's, and now the 140 TSX in the 270. After some 100+ head of game with the TSX bullets, I find that yes I do get far better penetration with these bullets than tradional bullets or even Nosler Partitions. Yes, I can improve trajectory and maintain penetration by using a lighter bullet. HOWEVER, I can keep the same trajectory I have become familiar with over the years, and INCREASE penetration and terminal performance by staying with the same weight. In effect, I feel like I get 300 level performance from the 30.06, and nearly .338 levels of performance from the various 300's. Greater penetration and more impact energy from the heavier weights isn't always necessary, but I prefer the increased performance levels.

Just a slightly different conclusion from the same data / observations. Lighter TSX bullets penetrate as well as their conventional style heavier competition.

Bill
 
Posts: 1089 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA | Registered: 19 March 2002Reply With Quote
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If a cup and core bullet of 150 grains keeps 70% weight retention (105 grains), then how can you say that it would have more energy/momentum in game than a bullet that finishes its penetration with a weight of 130grns, no matter how much it weighed before impact? (with mono metal bullets 130grns from the start for the sake of discussion)

It is the final weight of the bullet after it has done it's work that were applying forces to the vitals of the animal.

The cup and core bullets lose their weight upon impact. That is when forces are the highest on the bullet, and from the first 1" of penetration it is slowing down and shedding weight, losing momentum do to the medium it is in, and the weight it is losing through it's travel. With the mono metal bullets, they disrupt, but keep the weight, which allows them to keep the maximum amount of momentum/energy while traveling inside the games vitals. It loses none of its energy do to weight loss, and only loses the energy and speed do to traveling through the medium that it has impacted with. The full weight of the bullet stays with the bullet and the working forces of that weight under speed is not deminished near as much as with the cup and cores that actually lose a percentage of the weight through its travel and/or work.

It is the final weight of the bullet after it has done its work that we should look at for determining how much force was applied to the impact medium or the vitals of the game animal.

If a cup and core finishes its travel though game at a weight of 105 grains after losing a percentage of its mass, then you would lose nothing by starting with a bullet at 105 grains of weight, and keeping all of it mass intact.
 
Posts: 218 | Location: KC MO | Registered: 07 April 2009Reply With Quote
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why the thoughts on dropping to lighter bullets
dependant on style of bullet?
i would be more concerned with how the rifle shot them and what kind of group the rifle would shoot,using them.
if i can't "print" a 1/2" group @100yds under controlled conditions,its not the right
bullet/load for my rifle.
not trying to stir sh#t,trying to learn somthing
 
Posts: 2141 | Location: enjoying my freedom in wyoming | Registered: 13 January 2006Reply With Quote
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Lead is heavier than the mostly copper mono metal bullets. For equal weight, the mono metal bullets are longer than the cup and core bullets.

My 257 cal. 100grn TTSX barnes are .001-.002" longer than Hornady's .257 cal. 117grn spbt.

The .257cal 80grn TTSX is about the same length as cup and core 100grn bullets.

In other words, if your gun shoots a certain weight of cup and core bullet well, pick a barnes of equal length to do the same job, not of equal weight.
 
Posts: 218 | Location: KC MO | Registered: 07 April 2009Reply With Quote
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thanks
 
Posts: 2141 | Location: enjoying my freedom in wyoming | Registered: 13 January 2006Reply With Quote
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I'm so hurt that you just didn't take my word for it Mike. Wink
 
Posts: 2514 | Location: Central Coast of CA | Registered: 10 January 2002Reply With Quote
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I have experience with only one reduced weight TSX. That is the 210 vs the 225 grain TSX in my 338 Win Mag. I believe that this combination is at least as effective as a 225 cup and core and probably as effective as most 250's.
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: Happy Valley, Utah | Registered: 13 October 2006Reply With Quote
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Another cool thing about the 168 vs 180 in the 300wby is the recoil is less severe. I'm not recoil shy, but when a friend of mine encouraged to use the 168tsx after shooting 180's and 200's for yeaes. Wow, made a great gun even better, IMO.

If I go back to Alaska I will load 180 or 200 tsx but down south, 168's will be fine.
 
Posts: 457 | Location: NW Nebraska | Registered: 07 January 2007Reply With Quote
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