Seems some of you like to tell these tales about animals having their hearts shot to pieces, both lungs hit etc. etc. Then you say they just keep going and don't die. I have to call If they have their heart blown to pieces and they don't die soon then there heart was never hit to begin with.
So then you think your 7mag or 280 or 30-06 whatever isn't a big enough rifle to get the job done. So then you go out and buy a 864 wham bam boom tooty fruity magnum shooting 14,000 grain bullets at 7,984fps and you still make bad shots.
Then you have the ones that shoot the elk or whatever with a 270 and I will be damn the bullet just bounces off. had to duck the bullet when it bounced back at me, darn thing hit the tree behind me and still bounced back and hit me in the shoulder. Give me a break. So now you went out and bought a 949 bad mama jamma magnum shoots 18,492gr bullets at 12,641fps.

Jarrod
You've been in quite a mood lately!
First the muzlebreak thread now this......

I must say I agree with you on both topics, next you need to start a "I'm fed up with the only a premium bullet for deer, elk and antelope crowd".
I can't wait!

I agree.....I find it amusing when someone says they blew the heart to pieces but the critter still ran half a mile or a mile. No sir.....that just isn't possible.

Now I will say that deer and other critters can be tough. Hell....if a human gets shot in the heart (especially with a good hunting bullet), usually they would be dead before they had a chance to hit the ground. However, the very first buck I ever shot with my .300 WSM made it farther than I would have expected. I took off the top quarter of his heart and he still managed to run 60 yards, but at a deer's speed.....that's probably only 5 seconds.

Out of all the deer I've killed, that was the one that ran the farthest. About half the deer I've shot have dropped.....and the other half ran less than 50 yards.

Jarrod wrote: "So then you go out and buy a 864 wham bam boom tooty fruity magnum shooting 14,000 grain bullets at 7,984fps and you still make bad shots.
Then you have the ones that shoot the elk or whatever with a 270 and I will be damn the bullet just bounces off."
-----------


Much of my hunting is done with Contenders, and I honestly have little use for those jug-cased, mega-magnums that burn a pound of powder to power two-pound projectiles at 11,000 fps.

I don't have a problem with anyone using them as long as they shoot them well. But for me, if there's a deer or hog I can't kill inside of 250 yards with my 26" 6.5x30-30 AI or 20" 7mm Bullberry Contenders, then I would not have been able to kill it with anything else, either.

And until a recent swap to the TTSX in my 7mm Bullberry, plain old cup-and-core bullets have done the trick for me -- and quite nicely, I might add.

Heck, I just sold my "long range" rifle: an Encore Pro Hunter with a 28" .308 WCF barrel. I am replacing it with another Contender, this time a .309 JDJ. ANd more than likely, the 150 grain Sierra PH spitzer or 150 grain Ballistic Tip will be what that barrel is primarily fed.




And here's the bullet -- the discontinued 130 grain Sierra Single Shot Pistol projectile -- used to take the buck pictured above with. The MV was 2505 fps, and the quartering buck was taken at 108 yards. The bullet entered the right-frontal chest, wrecked the lungs and wound up in the left ham.

Bobby,

I never get tired of looking at that 20" 7mm you've got. I don't own a TC Contender YET.....but I guess I'm gonna have to break down and get one. I just love the way they look and feel.

I'm thinkin' about a .25-06 or maybe a .264 Win.
Hmmm.....decisions, decisions

Eland Slayer-

The Contenders are GREAT. But for a 25-06 or .264 WM, you'll have to go to the beefier Encore format. Still, they handle very well but are a bit heavier than the Contenders.

Here's an Encore in .280 AI with the factory FlexTech stock setup, which really does reduce recoil by a significant margin.

Once you get into the TCs, you'll quickly be addicted. The possibilities are endless, including stock set-ups and custom barrels.

quote:

next you need to start a "I'm fed up with the only a premium bullet for deer, elk and antelope crowd".
I can't wait!

I like this one and agree with you snellstrom I too am sick and tired of hearing elk wont die from "regular bullets"

Jarrod,
Don't sugar coat it, tell us what you really think.

While were bitchin', what really frosts me is guys who do not shoot during the year, never go to the range, don't check their zero or know anything about ballistics, and want to shoot deer or hogs at 300 yds plus and then bitch when they don't kill something, or want you to come help them track an animal they shot in the gut just before dark.
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Eland Slayer-

The Contenders are GREAT. But for a 25-06 or .264 WM, you'll have to go to the beefier Encore format. Still, they handle very well but are a bit heavier than the Contenders.

Here's an Encore in .280 AI with the factory FlexTech stock setup, which really does reduce recoil by a significant margin.

Once you get into the TCs, you'll quickly be addicted. The possibilities are endless, including stock set-ups and custom barrels.

Not to go too far off topic, but I am interested in your endorsement of that stock -- it really works better than a premium pad?

Also sorry I missed that rifle you sold this week...

Just to be on topic, you can lose game with a single lung shot or, on really tough game (Cape Buff, Elephant) even with a better shot than that if you do not have a suitable caliber (not necessarily talking about velocity) and remember to put follow up shots in.

Charles-

I think the FlexTech works about as well as any of the better pads out there, though I have not used them on any heavy kickers . However, I prefer the look and feel of either real wood or a nice laminate.

Also, the calibers I shoot -- even with the volume of powder I burn at times -- really don't need anything other than a standard recoil pad, so I will reserve comment regarding any of the heavy kickers. But for sake of comparison, the .280 and .280 AI Encore barrels, using top-end loads with 140 grain bullets, felt more like a .243 WCF.

Thanks. I like the look of wood with a Pachmayr pad myself, but need to pick up a rifle for daughter No. 2 and am always willing to explore recoil reduction for her.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
Seems some of you like to tell these tales about animals having their hearts shot to pieces, both lungs hit etc. etc. Then you say they just keep going and don't die.

So, who said that? I think I missed that thread. Straw man perhaps?

I only use premium bullets, because it makes no sense to use anything less when the price difference is so small. As for your comments about heart shots, all of the animals that have run the farthest on me over the years were...heart shot.

I also shoot a .300 RUM and have, what I believe are some very good reasons for it. I don't shoot past 300 yards, and I like a round that doesn't require any hold over out to that distance. If I misjudge the distance and the animal is 350, he's still dead. I also like a round that will reliably take an elk from any angle to that distance. In other words I want to maximum my odds of killing an elk when I'm hunting. With a .300 RUM and heavy premium bullets I have no qualms about taking a a shot from just about any angle on the biggest bull I might encounter. I also like a .300 because I am not the kind of guy that owns 20 rifles. I tend to shoot one rifle for years, and as a result I become intimately familiar with it. That being the case I want a rifle that's suitable for any animal in North America, up to and including brown bear.

If you or anyone else doesn't agree, so what? I have been hunting big game for 35 years and have lost 0 animals in that time. I'm obviously doing something right and I'm more proud of that fact that I am of any particular animal I've taken. The few animals that I nearly lost in my youth, were all shot with cheap factory ammo that disintegrated on bone when making quartering shots.

If someone wants to hunt bull elk with a .270 and 130 grn bullets that's great. The simple fact however, is that an ethical hunter with that combo will have to pass on shots that I won't have to pass on.

I would say that anyone who hunts in a way that lowers their odds of getting a killing shot at an animal is just foolish.

So, to your thoughtful words I respond:

Y'all know there's a simple solution? Instead of shooting them in the lungs/heart, shoot them in the shoulders. And if you're lucky, you'll catch the spine.. They drop on the spot. And suddenly you don't have to whine about blood trailing.

Well I have shot them in the shoulders and your right it does stop them a lot better than a lung/ heart shot.
And if there is a chance that my elk can end up in the bottom of some hell hole of a canyon with a two day packing job I still will.
But to be honest I like eating my elk even more than I like looking at them, and I have a dang hard time throwing away the front half because its shot to hell.
So personally if I can I am still going to try and punch him as tight behind the shoulder as I can without ruining too much meat.
If at all possible that is..
And with that said elk are still tough as nails and can run a long damn ways with a vital hit.
And frankly anyone who does not believe that in my opinion has not seen it or shot enough elk.
So yes if you want one down pretty rapido, then a high shoulder shot is good medicine.
But a man is a fool I do believe that does not keep ventilating his bull as long as it is still standing or moving.
Kind of like those famous last words of a safari gone bad,, no need to shoot again you hit him good..

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Jarrod wrote: "So then you go out and buy a 864 wham bam boom tooty fruity magnum shooting 14,000 grain bullets at 7,984fps and you still make bad shots.
Then you have the ones that shoot the elk or whatever with a 270 and I will be damn the bullet just bounces off."
-----------


Much of my hunting is done with Contenders, and I honestly have little use for those jug-cased, mega-magnums that burn a pound of powder to power two-pound projectiles at 11,000 fps.

I don't have a problem with anyone using them as long as they shoot them well. But for me, if there's a deer or hog I can't kill inside of 250 yards with my 26" 6.5x30-30 AI or 20" 7mm Bullberry Contenders, then I would not have been able to kill it with anything else, either.

And until a recent swap to the TTSX in my 7mm Bullberry, plain old cup-and-core bullets have done the trick for me -- and quite nicely, I might add.

Heck, I just sold my "long range" rifle: an Encore Pro Hunter with a 28" .308 WCF barrel. I am replacing it with another Contender, this time a .309 JDJ. ANd more than likely, the 150 grain Sierra PH spitzer or 150 grain Ballistic Tip will be what that barrel is primarily fed.




And here's the bullet -- the discontinued 130 grain Sierra Single Shot Pistol projectile -- used to take the buck pictured above with. The MV was 2505 fps, and the quartering buck was taken at 108 yards. The bullet entered the right-frontal chest, wrecked the lungs and wound up in the left ham.

Bobby and the thing is you show us thread after thread WITH pictures of those critters you kill with that rifle and all those animals look pretty dead to me.

quote:

Originally posted by DC Roxby:

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
Seems some of you like to tell these tales about animals having their hearts shot to pieces, both lungs hit etc. etc. Then you say they just keep going and don't die.

So, who said that? I think I missed that thread. Straw man perhaps?

I only use premium bullets, because it makes no sense to use anything less when the price difference is so small. As for your comments about heart shots, all of the animals that have run the farthest on me over the years were...heart shot.

I also shoot a .300 RUM and have, what I believe are some very good reasons for it. I don't shoot past 300 yards, and I like a round that doesn't require any hold over out to that distance. If I misjudge the distance and the animal is 350, he's still dead. I also like a round that will reliably take an elk from any angle to that distance. In other words I want to maximum my odds of killing an elk when I'm hunting. With a .300 RUM and heavy premium bullets I have no qualms about taking a a shot from just about any angle on the biggest bull I might encounter. I also like a .300 because I am not the kind of guy that owns 20 rifles. I tend to shoot one rifle for years, and as a result I become intimately familiar with it. That being the case I want a rifle that's suitable for any animal in North America, up to and including brown bear.

If you or anyone else doesn't agree, so what? I have been hunting big game for 35 years and have lost 0 animals in that time. I'm obviously doing something right and I'm more proud of that fact that I am of any particular animal I've taken. The few animals that I nearly lost in my youth, were all shot with cheap factory ammo that disintegrated on bone when making quartering shots.

If someone wants to hunt bull elk with a .270 and 130 grn bullets that's great. The simple fact however, is that an ethical hunter with that combo will have to pass on shots that I won't have to pass on.

I would say that anyone who hunts in a way that lowers their odds of getting a killing shot at an animal is just foolish.

So, to your thoughtful words I respond:

DC to be more clear im not against big calibers. Heck I love to hunt as much with big calibers as I do small calibers probably more actually. Besides I like to make big booms and big explosions. What gets me are those people that wound a deer with a 270 or pick a standard caliber here. Then they think their rifle is not up to the task so they go out and get an AT4 or something. They still end up wounding the deer, or elk or caribou or whatever animal. Its not their rifle that's not up to the task, its their marksmanship that is lacking. By the way I had a 300 RUM and I loved it. Didn't matter if you were shooting 165's, 180's, 200's whatever it would put them under 3/4 of an inch at 200yds all day long and some loads 1/2 inch or less. Like a big dummy that I am sold it.
Regarding the heart shots a lot of animals that I've heart shot do about a 40 to 60 yard dash and then that's all she wrote. Or that has been my experience. Heart shot is a great shot. However if im not too worried about a little meat loss and I want the animals to drop right there then I try to shoot through both shoulders (knocking the transfer case out) and that usually results in DRT.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
Jarrod
You've been in quite a mood lately!
First the muzlebreak thread now this......

I must say I agree with you on both topics, next you need to start a "I'm fed up with the only a premium bullet for deer, elk and antelope crowd".
I can't wait!

Snellstorm now you've gone and gave me another idea.


Geedubya
I agree 100% Especially those that go hunting. Put the gun in a corner somewhere for a year. Never shoot it during the year and then grab it opening morning without having verified zero in any way and go hunting. They are like well I zeroed it in a couple years ago.

Jarrod wrote:

quote:

Bobby and the thing is you show us thread after thread WITH pictures of those critters you kill with that rifle and all those animals look pretty dead to me.

I've yet to hear one complain about my caliber choice...

I am not in the 'smithing business, but I do get quite a few guns brought to me each year for sight-ins and minor maladies.

Some of these folks are accomplished shots and bring home the bacon, so to speak, on a regular basis. Others make me wonder why they even attempt to hunt at all.

A couple years ago, one gentleman drove up just as I finished with his rifle, and it was still on the bench. He had complained that it was off -- that it must not have been properly sighted last season. Hmmm.I did the sight-in, and this time, the rig required less than an inch of adjustment, not bad considering it wore a wooden stock and spent much of its life bouncing around in a pickup.

In the past, he had claimed all sort of long range feats, but it was a miss the season before -- a miss witnessed by several other guys -- that apparently got him back here.

So I suggested he try the gun himself and pointed out a full-size paper deer target that my son had set up for himself earlier. The range was 200 yards.

Fumbling and flinching and quite uncomfortable trying to set up the gun, her finally fired a 3-shot group, and not a single bullet impacted the vitals but were instead spewed all over the paper. If I remember correctly, one was in the antlers and two below the belly -- this from a solid bench rest.

I told him where the bullets had impacted, and he became defensive and rather obnoxious -- even suggesting I set him up and that the target must be at least 350 yards away instead of 200. I retrieved my rangefinder and let him do the honors. Then he said he didn't know what I did to his rifle.

I then asked if I could shoot it a couple of times at the same target while he spotted for me. I fired a couple shots in rather rapid succession, without even fully setting up on the bags, and asked "Well???"

He just shook his head and said nothing. WIth minimal effort, both had neatly impacted in the heart/lung region. Suffice to say, he has not been back.

But he is not the only one who needs to spend more time familiarizing with the gun(s) they intend to hunt with.

Another time, I sighted in a .243, and with his handload, I had it impacting app. 1.5 inches high at 100 yards as he told me he wanted a 200 yard zero. I had fired one shot at 200 to confirm the impact but did not save that target for him. He took a look at the 100 yard target, said something about a nice group but then asked me to "bring it down so it's about an inch low at 100. That little bullet is so fast it rises, and I'll shoot too high on a deer out at 200 yards this way."

I tried explaining trajectory but to no avail. I finally showed him by shooting, and I still am not certain he was convinced...

I see folks who don't even know how to properly operate their firearms, who have no clue as to trajectory and others who switch ammo and bullet weights without ever checking the zero.

Others would have a hard time showing you where the vitals actually are located on a given species.

But I'd better step down from this soap box 'lest my blood pressure get even higher...

Recently I had a fellow wanting to show me his "big game bullets" I thought sure why not.
So out comes a box of 444's I thought well sure thats not a bad choice, I have a lot of respect for that caliber and what it can do.
And then comes the kicker,, 'yep it is sighted in dead on at a thousand yards, but it drops like hell after that..

I thought I bet it does..

Bobby
You hit the nail on the head!
Every year here in Colorado I hear the somone on the job telling their story about killing his cow elk at 7 or 800 yards and the cow always weighs 1000 pounds plus. I used to investigate further in these conversations but I no longer do because I get really upset. In the past I would ask "wow at 700 yards how high did you holdover?" the answer was right out of the rookie handbook "holdover?. you don't have to hold over with a 7 Mag! that thing shoots so flat its not even starting to drop at that distance!"
I can feel my temper rising just re telling this stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:

DC to be more clear im not against big calibers. Heck I love to hunt as much with big calibers as I do small calibers probably more actually. Besides I like to make big booms and big explosions. What gets me are those people that wound a deer with a 270 or pick a standard caliber here. Then they think their rifle is not up to the task so they go out and get an AT4 or something. They still end up wounding the deer, or elk or caribou or whatever animal. Its not their rifle that's not up to the task, its their marksmanship that is lacking. By the way I had a 300 RUM and I loved it. Didn't matter if you were shooting 165's, 180's, 200's whatever it would put them under 3/4 of an inch at 200yds all day long and some loads 1/2 inch or less. Like a big dummy that I am sold it.
Regarding the heart shots a lot of animals that I've heart shot do about a 40 to 60 yard dash and then that's all she wrote. Or that has been my experience. Heart shot is a great shot. However if im not too worried about a little meat loss and I want the animals to drop right there then I try to shoot through both shoulders (knocking the transfer case out) and that usually results in DRT.

I got you now now. I am completely with you in regards to people not knowing their guns. I'm also a big fan of high shoulder shots or even neck shots nowadays. I think my record for a heart shot whitetail was a texas buck that ran about 100 yards like a rocket before dying in mid-stride. That was with my .270.

We're surrounded by idiots...

No, no Snellstrom, that's not how a 7MM Mag works. You, of all people, should know that due to the altitude here in Colorado, approximately 10 feet after leaving the muzzle, a 7 MM bullet hooks a 90 degree turn, goes straight down, passes through the center of the earth, hits a lampost somewhere in downtown Shanghai, bounces back up exiting the ground 1500 yards downrange and heading in the opposite direction and then hits that 1000 pound cow between the ears...from behind. That's why it's so effective. They never see or hear it coming. I really love mine.

plainview that wasn't you that told me that story was it?

I actually hold low at 800 yards as my 300 RUM is still rising at that distance.

The only time I've ever needed to hold over one was when I was hunting elk in New Mexico from my front porch in Arizona. It was a 1,200lbs cow elk and even though my shot had destroyed her heart, lungs, and spine, she took off running and I recovered her in Colorado.

Some of these posts remind of a saying an old friend from Ireland has a habit of repeating,often when talking to me. His saying is "a lie, well told will serve as good as the truth, any day". I've another friend that says he does not prevaricate unless he absolutely has to.
GWB

The BS isn't just limited to the hunting forums here at AR!

The internet isn't just for buying stuff, playing video games, and watching porn. Where else can everybody be an expert on everything?

I myself have a several PhD's from my internet experiences. They were all free. However I had to pay for my BS(ing) degree.

quote:

I actually hold low at 800 yards as my 300 RUM is still rising at that distance.

The only time I've ever needed to hold over one was when I was hunting elk in New Mexico from my front porch in Arizona. It was a 1,200lbs cow elk and even though my shot had destroyed her heart, lungs, and spine, she took off running and I recovered her in Colorado.

I have to call on this one. Colorado is north of New Mexico, that shot cow would,ve had to run UPHILL to get to Colorado. Jeeesh, some strory !!

so, what's your point...? Eskimos used to hunt Polar Bear with M70 22 Hornets.
If you can't handle recoil of anything heavier than them peashooter contenders, go ahead and use them. Hunt with what you enjoy hunting with, and allow the rest of us the same privilege without all your blather.


Rich
Big Bore capable
Cape Buffalo Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
so, what's your point...? Eskimos used to hunt Polar Bear with M70 22 Hornets.
If you can't handle recoil of anything heavier than them peashooter contenders, go ahead and use them. Hunt with what you enjoy hunting with, and allow the rest of us the same privilege without all your blather.


Rich
Big Bore capable
Cape Buffalo Killer

Not sure if your post is directed at me. If it is then you did not read my posts' on this thread. if you did then you do not understand my post.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
I actually hold low at 800 yards as my 300 RUM is still rising at that distance.

The only time I've ever needed to hold over one was when I was hunting elk in New Mexico from my front porch in Arizona. It was a 1,200lbs cow elk and even though my shot had destroyed her heart, lungs, and spine, she took off running and I recovered her in Colorado.

Reminds me of the time I killed a coyote with a M119 howitzer. Hard part was sneaking it out the gate. Get funny looks towing it behing a silverado. I tried not to hit any heavy bone. Ended up hitting the coyote in the shoulder. Darn thing didn't penetrate but a couple of inches. Bullet never made it to the vitals and coyote run all the way from Kentucky to Indonesia Shot him at fifty yards was luck as I wasn't sure how much holdover I would need.

I have seen a lot of heart and lung shots run 50-75 yards. I shoot a 7 rem cause I suck at range estimation. Zero at 200 and it will hit vitals from 50-300 yds , verified at the range. I would not use a .223, although alot do. Where I hunt I have had shots, where I could almost club to 300+ yds. Growing up on a farm, we butchered all our own meat, and every hog and steer was taken with a .22 lr at 5-40 yds with one shot to the head. Out of all the animals shot for 4 families I remember 1 pig that took 2 to the brain as the first did not make it through the bone. That does not mean that I will start using a .22, even though I saw it kill 3 steers and 5 pigs for about 15 years!

Idaho Sharpshooter wrote:

quote:

If you can't handle recoil of anything heavier than them peashooter contenders, go ahead and use them.

I guess this post is directed at me since I think I'm the only one to mention Contenders.

If so, let me say this: Those "peashooter Contenders" have put a ton of game on the ground for me. Scratch that: Now that I think about it, it's a heck of a lot more than a ton...

I could are less what anyone hunts with as long as they are proficient with their choice. But unfortunately, some think just becasue they are shooting some super-duper hotshot magnum that they can relax in the accuracy department and put the bullet anywhere. But a 4000 grain missle through the flank is still a wounding shot, as is one from a 40 grain .22 LR.

quote:

I could are less what anyone hunts with as long as they are proficient with their choice. But unfortunately, some think just becasue they are shooting some super-duper hotshot magnum that they can relax in the accuracy department and put the bullet anywhere.

Bobby
My sentiments exactly. Too many people think big gun means quick kill and in my experience I beg to differ. Now don't get me wrong a big gun well shot is a killer for sure but a big gun never will make up for poor shooting.
I see and hear of far too many people that think a big rifle means they can shoot an elk from any angle and put it down when they should have waited for a good angle and done it right. A big rifle does not turn every animal "sighting" into a shot.

aim small.....miss small

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
aim small.....miss small

Great quote!! I've used this ever since I first saw The Patriot.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
Jarrod,
Don't sugar coat it, tell us what you really think.

While were bitchin', what really frosts me is guys who do not shoot during the year, never go to the range, don't check their zero or know anything about ballistics, and want to shoot deer or hogs at 300 yds plus and then bitch when they don't kill something, or want you to come help them track an animal they shot in the gut just before dark.
GWB

Yessir! This one gets me too! This last deer season, it sounded like WWIII errupted on the neighbor's property at first light. Six shots in succession, no deer down, or worse, maybe a wounded deer that had run off somewhere....... Guess they should pick up the rifle, dust it off, and actually practice before opening day........

A ton, that was just under what my Cape Buffalo weighed last month. Add three American Bison, two around 1600lbs, and a big one at nearly 2700lbs; and a combined 800+ pounds for my 2008 Elk and Mule Deer...over 7800lbs in the last five years, and we aren't done counting Elk and Deer yet.

I cannot decide, is this a tongue-in-cheek thread, and you missed my humor; or is it serious and you took me that way?
Let me know when you get time...

Rich
Cape Buffalo Killer

Rich-

It's not my thread, but I certainly did post on it.