No one is more aware than I regarding the, at times, harsh reality that goes along with Nature and the interactions of her creatures!
Yesterday myself and two friends were passing through Ennis, Montana starting up the pass between there and Virginia City! It was around 5:00 PM and we had come down that pass on our way to the Gunshow in Bozeman, Montana 9 hours earlier. I slowed down on an uphill curve to provide more time to observe the Mule Deer that winter there in a 1/2 mile wide basin on the north side of the highway. We had seen many Mule Deer that morning there and we all had our binocs ready to scan for the Deer and for shed antlers!
Well as I am slowing down I see a large Coyote not 30 feet from the road up ahead of us! I pointed him out to my friends as it ran off and I pulled over on the shoulder to watch him run. The Coyote ran almost directly away from us and ran about 180 yards til it stopped and looked back at us.
We all had him in view when I noticed something moving about 10 feet from the Coyote behind a 15" high sagebrush bush. Then I saw a bloody leg thrashing up from behind this bush. It was the leg of a still alive Mule Deer! There was blood on the inner thigh of this leg! We were all confounded! What a coincidence was my first thought! A wounded Mule Deer and we scared a Coyote into running towards it?
The Coyote darted into the midst of the bush and the Mule Deer and came out with a very boody face several seconds later!
The Coyote held its ground even though I was now outside the VarmintMobile using it to steady my 12x50 Nikon binoculars on this bizarre scene!
The Coyote would alternately dive into the Deer and the bush and then back off and stand broadside glaring at us!
Now to add more bizarreness to this already strange scene I see a herd of 30 Mule Deer APPROACHING the Coyote and the flailing Deer!
These Deer walked right up to within 5 feet of the flailing (and I am assuming) "squealing" (it was windy and no sounds made it to us) Deer!
The Coyote backed off another 10 feet but stood its ground on the opposite side of the flailing Deer from the herd about 15 feet from the herd!
The 3 of us who probably own more than 250 firearms amongst us - but at the time we could only come up with one firearm! It was a Remington 700 Classic in 338 Winchester Magnum! And we had NO munitions for it!
Lesson learned - AGAIN! Never go anywhere in Montana with out a Varmint gun!
As we watched the now stand off situation between the Deer herd and the Coyote I began assessing this situation!
My observations were this! There was only one Coyote in that basin I am 99% sure!
I began pondering if ONE large Coyote could catch and kill a Mule Deer (we never did determine if this Deer was an adult or a yearling - 10 months old). The Deer on the ground was mostly obscured by sage.
I began searching the basin for additional predators and none were seen! I checked the road to see if a Deer/auto collission had occurred. No evidence of that was seen. Then I thought about how a Deer could be hit by a car and make it over the obligatory highway fencing and travel 200 yards up a slight grade to its final position. And at this position it was accosted by this lone Coyote we had spooked.
I discounted this scenario and could only come up with this lone Coyote had brought down the Deer and the rest of the herd had ran him off for a time!
Then when our presence threatened the Coyotes claim on the wounded Deer he returned to it and tried to finish it off. This time of year a Coyote standing its ground less than 200 yards from a car full of humans just doesn't happen very often here in Montana!
I have seen Coyotes taking the fawns of Antelope and Deer for decades now, each spring. Again this is part of Nature. But on open ground (no snow) and in a flat open basin I was amazed that ONE Coyote could critically wound a Mule Deer!
We talked among us about driving to the nearest Rifle and munitions (another 40 miles each way!) and returning to dispatch this bold, large and well furred Coyote.
We decided that my frined that lived closest would return this morning and harvest the Coyote if it was still there! We left the standoff in progress as night was appraoching and we had a long way to go still.
The rest of the way home we talked and mulled over this situation! If a Mt. Lion had taken this Deer down there on the winter range it surely would not have left it for a Coyote - we were sure of that! If other Coyotes had been in on the kill they could not have left without being seen. They probably would not have left without taking their "fill" of the hapless Deer besides. That situation would surely have killed the Deer and no bloody leg would have been seen waving in the air!
The only credible scenario I can come up with in this situation was that indeed this large Coyote had waited in ambush for the feeding Deer and lept upon this Deer and wounded it enough to bring it down. Then the herd had somehow intimidated the Coyote causing it to slink off to the fenceline where I first saw it as we slowed down. And then we scared the Coyote back to its "kill".
I have seen both lone Coyotes and Coyotes in pairs chase down Deer on frozen lakes and kill them but never have I witnessed an adult size Deer on bare ground being killed by a lone Coyote!
Anyone out there ever witness or see evidence of a single Coyote taking an adult Deer down?
What a great day in Montana though! We did a fine gunshow in the morning and then spent the afternoon watching various wintering Elk herds that late afternoon!
In addition to the Mule Deer and Elk we watched we saw tons of Antelope and Whitetailed Deer along with Bald Eagles, Golden Eagles, Ringnecked Pheasants, Hawks, Falcons, Geese, Ducks, Fox and even some Ground Squirrels up Bozeman way!
I am waiting to hear if my friend gets this Coyote (or others that may be frequenting this Mule Deer wintering basin!).
I would appreciate any thoughts on a lone Coyote killing a Mule Deer on open ground though.
Long live Montana!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I am so surprized to think that not one of you had a firearm with ammo. What state do you think you live in New York

Shame Shame Shame Shame.

VarmintGuy:

Although "p dog shooter" thinks that all New Yorkers live in New York City I have a coyote story of my own.

To orient you - northern Westchester County in NY State is about 40 miles or so from NY City. It was rural country but certainly not "wilderness' country. About 25 years ago or so, I was out hunting ruffed grouse in January. There was a light snow on the ground. I was thoroughly familiar with the country for miles around having grown up on the same dirt raod I was walking on. (Determining on where I wanted to turn off and head up a slope to look for ruffs) I spotted tracks of a deer across the road. I also saw coyote tracks. (To be honest, I think I probably recognized the pads and didn't place them) I turned off and started to walk up the slope and came over a rise and came upon about 4 coyotes who had a deer down at about 35 yards. They spotted me, of course, as I came over the rise. I threw up the shotgun and fired into the face of one coyote. He fell away and I thought I had him but he recovered and ran off. The shotgun was a DB and I sent another coyote on his way but no coyote dropped. ( I had a 12 but only using #6's and they were field loads) I put in a written report to the NY State DEC. I was told on official stationary that coyotes did not kill deer. True story.

VG;A couple of years ago I got tired of not haveing the weapon I needed for what ever varmint opportunities came up.Often I wood need a shotgun but had a rifle and vise-versa.So I bought 2 savage 24v,s one 222/20ga. and one 223/20ga and they never come out of my Jeep Wrangler and My Ford S/Duty.It has really paid off.
I dont know what to make of your coyote encounter but interesting none the less.I have seen them hunt and kill antelope fawns on several occasions over the years but not deer.
How was the Bozeman gunshow?I wanted to go but was nursing my border collie who was recovering from some kind of encounter w/poison or whatever really not sure.w/regards

I was in a similar situation the other day in Nebraska and used a .32 H&R mag handgun to dispatch a coyote. I keep in the back of the truck in a case. Handguns make it tricky but are still better than a .338 and no ammo.

Gerry375 wrote: "I shot at a coyote while hunting ruffed grouse in northern Westchester county (up against the Putnam County line) over 20 years ago. (I was using field loads, No.6s and the coyote along with two others had pulled down a late fawn and the range was nearly 45 yards or so -or otherwise I would have had him."

Gerry-I find it odd that someone who publicly denounces the hunting of cougar and wolf would attempt to wound a coyote (anyone who knows his weapon would realize that 45 yards with field loads would not humanely kill, right???).

But then I saw your story changed: from 3 coyotes to 4, from 35 yards to 45...from shooting one to emptying the second barrel at another animal.

Well, anyone who sees your posts will get the picture...

troll...troll...troll...

Forgot to add:

The original post reminds me I need to load a few more 22-250 rounds. My supply is getting a little low at the moment.

Thanks, VarmintGuy!

Hey VG! Welcome back from your travels!

I would guess that something brought down the mule deer (car injury or???) and then for whatever reason the coyote came across the deer still alive. But who knows?

It is really cool to watch how mule deer will band together and try and drive away the predator..... check out some articles by Dr. Susan Lingle when you get a chance. (Search on Google Scholar).....she has done a ton of research on the behavior of coyotes and mule deer.

IV

There's always the possibility that the deer was injured or sick. Besides a car collision, the deer could have had an old bullet wound, been caught in a fence and got out, been old and having difficulty getting enough forage, etc., etc. A healthy adult mule deer is definitely not the easiest meal for a lone coyote, so I'm guessing the coyote saw something that it perceived as a weakness in that particular deer. Or he could have just been damn hungry...an empty belly can be an incentive to risk more. Whatever the reason behind it, sounds like an interesting experience to witness.

several yrs ago eastmans had a photo spread on a single coyote killing a mature doe deer.coyote enveloped the deer snout in its mouth effectivly sufficating it,wasn't a big coyote either. kill a coyote save a deer,kill a "super-sized" coyote just for the sound of the bullet smack

I can think of another possible scenario. Perhaps several Coyotes took down said deer and whatever spooked your yote a little spooked the others a lot. They are very adept at dissapearing.

It would really be something to catch such a stalk on film.

If I would have seen that I would have wanted to examine the deer. Specifically its size and the nature of its wounds.

Ravenr: Thank you for your clarification of what I am pretty sure happened! That Coyote somehow killed that Mule Deer by itself.
My good friend from Wisdom, Montana and his wife were following their trapline on a snowmobile a few years back and they came upon a Cougar killing a full grown Moose! The Cougar had the Moose by the throat and its grip apparently suffocated the Moose and it fell to the ground as they watched. This occurred in deep snow as I recall it being relayed to me, about 18" of snow. But 18" of snow is nothing for a full grown Moose to plod through!
Thanks again.

LongCarbine: There is definitely the possibility of what you describe did occur. I may head over that-away tomorrow and check the carcass myself for broken legs. I WILL have one of my 204's along with me this time!

Yeah I was out on the coast for to long!
The VarmintMother is recovering slowly from her heart surgery and was actually doing pretty well when I left Saturday at 0400 hours! That put me through Colfax/Pullman at 0930 hours and of course I saw several Rooster Pheasants, lots of Deer, a few Turkeys (north of Colfax) and one Coyote (15 miles south of Spokane)!
It was just glorious crossing the scablands and then the Palouse country just after sunrise!
Thanks for the tip on Dr. Lingle's articles. Will do.
I did earn some mad money while there this time.

Bobby Tomek: Yes, I would have given a $50.00 bill for any one of my 22-250's being along "locked and loaded" for dispatching that well furred Coyote!
My bad there!

Vapodog: Now thats a feat of note! Shooting a Coyote with a pistol! Good for you! Many happy returns of that incident.

Gophershooter: The show was great I sold a Remington 700 in 270 Winchester with a 3x9 scope I bought a couple weeks ago and I made $125.00 on it! And then I got a bid for a mint High Standard Supermatic Citation I have had for several months now that would have profitted me $200.00 over what I paid for it! I decided to keep the High Standard though. I was dealing off my back and out of my day pack and I sold a High Standard clip that I paid $10.00 for and made a fat $30.00 on it. Anyway there was lots of stuff there but it was mostly marked pretty high! I wish I would have had more time to wheel and deal there but my "homies" were eager to get into Elk wintering country!
I hope your dog spiffs up real soon! I wonder if it ate some long dead (and frozen) critter that made it ill!
The show was well attended and several folks from my neck of the woods were in attendance. Including two Coyote Hunters from the Centennial Valley country! One pair of Coyote Hunters got 7 Coyotes in one day down that a way recently! And they relayed how the government Hunter (from a plane) got 18 confirmed Coyote kills in one short session a couple of weeks ago!
I bought several small items and some books and a loading manual but no new guns came home with me! Sorry you missed the show.

Gerry375: I have friends in New York and they Hunt Coyotes quite often there! They have even taken them with archery equipment! Again that is tough duty as I have tried it and know that from experience!
My good friend Tom Witkowski killed a beautiful Bobcat (out in Washington State) using Pheasant loads from his 12 gauge a few years back! He was Pheasant Hunting at the time in eastern Washington. My just now call to him went for naught as he is over in eastern Washington Trout fishing and Varmint calling as we speak. That Bobcat is full body mounted in his den! I will get the yardage for you ASAP. My friend Ben here is SW Montana killed a Coyote with his 12 gauge a couple months back (January 14th) as the Coyote was stalking his decoys! I have a call in for him for that yardage as well! I can not remember my having killed a Coyote with a shotgun and bird loads but I may have somewhere down the line - I just don't remember doing it. I would not hesitate shooting a Coyote with a shotgun and Goose loads though!

You are EXACTLY right p dog shooter! The only "excuse" I can offer was that I got home from the west coast at about 8:00 PM Saturday night and only had time to throw together a day pack of stuff to sell at the Gunshow and the two Rifles I did take along were already in the trunk and I had no ammo for each!
I do have in my gun vault a perfectly good T/C pistol (in caliber 223 Remington) with a 14" heavy barrel and a Burris variable scope on it! In the oversize Hunter's pistol rug I keep it in I also have three 20 round MTM boxes of 223 ammo! It was my lazy assed, own fault for not having it along!
My friend has not called me as yet (like he promised he would!) to let me know if he killt that Coyote this morning. Its about 61 miles to that spot from my house - and I may just travel it tomorrow (fully camoed and with my calls and a nifty 204 Ruger Varmint Rifle along) to put an end to that big furry Coyotes predations!
Wish me luck!
About 50 airmiles from this very spot I saw a Wolf chasing a small herd of Antelope 3 Novembers ago! My partner that day and I were Hunting Elk in a remote basin! The Antelope were running along in about 8 inches of snow and I swear they were smirking as they ran! That Wolfs tongue was hanging out and he was laboring to keep even 200 yards behind the Lopes! I hope the Antelope "ran" that Wolf to death! This may have been his first encounter with the huge lunged and able to run forever Antelope!
I searched that basin VERY carefully for other Wolves but none were seen on that occassion. Wolves are known for chasing animals in a circle to come back past "fresh" Wolves to give more chase and tire the prey (Caribou, Elk etc). But these Antelope were not being driven in a circle - they led that Wolf along at a teasing pace and in a straight line clear out of our sight!
Montana is such a splendid place to observe nature! One of the large wintering Elk herds we watched was at the base of a mountain where one of the guys had been Hunting Elk off of horses the previous September. An early snow left 3" on the ground and before it melted he saw 3 different sets of Grizzly tracks! One of the 3 sets was actually 3 Grizzlies ( a sow and two cubs!).
Long live Montana!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

For all the above things you mention.

They are many of things I love coming to Montana for. My wife says you can shoot varmints and catch trout here.

I just tell but we have no mountains.

I most likely well not move there when I retire but I'll spent more tiem catching trout and killing varmints.

I use to spent lots of time on the Madison catching trout. The bear trap and gray cliffs.

Injoy your day.

VG You went to the gun show in bozeman and did not invite me along... Shame on you....

I have seen coyotes take down full size mules before. The way they did it when I saw them was they would run the deer down a very steep hill that had a fence at the bottom. The deer would be so occupied with running from the yote that it would not pay attention to the fence and run full tilt into it. When the deer hit the fence it would either kill it outright or wound it so bad that it was easy for the yote to finish it off. The yotes got pretty good at doing this trick and were mucking over the deer pretty good until we shot a few of the yotes.

By chance was the area you saw this happen steep with a fence at the bottom?

Russ

I was hunting Elk and Sheep in the east Kootneys years ago, I had just finished a 4 hour climb to get above some sheep we had spotted from the valley floor. There was an almost sheer drop to my right and a timbered slope to my left. All of a sudden All hell breaks loose to my left. 3 does and a fawn come sprinting past within 15 yrds of me with a mother coyote and 3 pretty much grown pups right on their tales. I watched as they chased the deer down the vertical slope. I assumed they were trying to get the fawn to falter but the little bugger was too surefooted. Scared the crap out of me as I was trying to get the drop on the Sheep though. None of the sheep were legal but it made for an interesting morning.

I find it moderatly difficult to believe that a Coyote can take down an uninjured deer.

I've seen a road hit deer clear an 8foot fence
after being struck by a truck... my truck as a matter of fact
No, there was no debris or skid marks because I never touched the brakes and I have a push bar on my truck.

Was the deer mortally injured? You betcha!

I went around the end of the fence instead of over it, the deer went more than 250yards before laying up.

If there had been coyotes around it they woulda been on it like flies on a gutpile.

that was deer #7 (I think it was #7 anyway) of 14 deer I've
hit with various vehicles.

The right side shoulder was wasted but what got the deer was it's broken ribs and punctured lungs.

keeping your road kills is legal here by the way.
Saves the highway dept from picking them up

I find it real easy to believe the deer was seriously injured by even a minor contact with a car, made it over the fence then became an irresistable opportunity for the coyote.



Hell, the only difference between me and the coyote is I shoot back at things that shoot at me when I'm picking up roadkill

Unless you personally did a postmortem on the deer don't speculate...
Based on that kind of anecdotal information you might believe that I routinely run down and club whitetails to death with my trusty maglight flashlight, because several people have seen me with a whitetail with only "blunt trauma" injuries.

To poke fun at a well known signature line on this forum;
"Kill a coyote save 100 rabbits"


AllanD

Damn Allan, sounds like you're vehicles are a magnet for deer. Sure you're not hitting them on purpose to scavenge the carcasses? Nothin' like fresh roadkill on the grill!

Check out the size of this road killed mouse.

At my old house, I watched a group of 5 coyotes work a spike elk for two days. They seperated him from the rest of the herd, and pushed him into belly deep snow and just waited. They kept pestering him, one would bite his flanks, the bull would turn, one would bite the side of his neck, the bull would turn back....they just kept after it.

Finally he succumb to exaustion, and they began to feed on his hind quarters while he was still alive. He eventually expired. I guess that means the coyotes killed him. Don't know what it was about the bull that they keyed in on, he didn't appear to be injured, but predators have the amazing ability to identify weaknesses in otherwise healthy looking animals.

Quite often you see this on the elk refuge as well. I've watched coyotes take on monster bulls that were weakened by scabies and the rut. Days later, only a spine and antlered head remain.

MG

Bobby Tomek:

I'm not quite sure why you felt it necessary to post such an insulting post but let me make a few quick points.

An old man's memory fails him sometimes. Whether it was 2-3 or 4 coyotes or whether the range was 35 or 45 yards, I suppose I don't have a real handle on nowadays. The essential facts of the story are true.

Next -as to your jeer at me about it being "humane" to shoot at a coyote with bird loads at such ranges - I thought then (and still do) that coyotes were vermin - to be shot on sight. I freely admit that the sight of coyotes in the process of killing a deer set me off. I didn't think about "humane".

Finally, since you want to insult me by calling me a "troll" because I had stated a position on the shooting of cougars or wolves - I said that I was opposed to SPORT hunting of either. I fully support the right of any rancher, farmer or sheep herder to shoot them on sight. I also don't want them to disappear from the earth - and, yet, that's what could happen if SPORT hunting of them continues. Could I be wrong? Of course!. I HOPE I'm wrong. I suspect that I was hunting long before you were born and in a lot of places. Disagree with me, as you like. I just don't like being insulted in the process.

BTW, no Westerner posted an insult to me and one Westerner sent me a PM that showed that Westerners understood what I was trying to say - even if they disagreed. I wish Texas would also try to understand.

gerry375 wrote:

quote:

I freely admit that the sight of coyotes in the process of killing a deer set me off. I didn't think about "humane".

Those who live among the wolves and watch them decimate deer and elk herds feel the same way. ANd an open season would go a long ways towards balancing the equation. Yet you don't feel westerners should have that right.

quote:

Originally posted by LongCarbine:
Damn Allan, sounds like you're vehicles are a magnet for deer. Sure you're not hitting them on purpose to scavenge the carcasses? Nothin' like fresh roadkill on the grill!

It's called "target rich environment"

I've (knock on wood) had a three year dry spell
And there was one incedent where I got four all at once, came around a blind corner to find eight deer simply standing in the middle of the road...

I am not going to swerve to avoid a deer and hit a tree, utility pole or culvert like stupid people always seem to do....

When I learned to drive I was told that sometimes a collision cannot be avoided and that there was a simple sequence of rules to follow...
1)Never hit somethingmoving towards you when you can hit something stationary
2)Never hit something stationary when you can hit something moving in the same direction
3)Never hit something that won't move when you can hit something that will move.
4)Never hit something heavy when you can hit something light
5)Try to hit something cheap instead of something expensive
6)try to hit something soft rather than something hard.

Deer are preferable to the alternative under rules #3, 4, 5 & 6.

7)Never let someone else's acccident become your own.
8)Try not to make your accident become someone else's

AllanD

We kill them all the time it is unavoidable sometimes.Most of my friends have a brushguard made in Livingston MT called a Deerslayer and he has pictures posted of trucks and animals killed with it,including elk ,moose and bears.I killed three with my last truck.w/regards

Bobby Tomek:

I am not sure if you read me right. You don't live among cougars and wolves. Westerners who do are better qualified to talk about them. (BTW, I never considered Texas a Western state- and neither do real Texans who fought in "The War". From your name you are somebody who perhaps arrived much later?)

quote:

Finally, since you want to insult me by calling me a "troll" because I had stated a position on the shooting of cougars or wolves - I said that I was opposed to SPORT hunting of either. I fully support the right of any rancher, farmer or sheep herder to shoot them on sight. I also don't want them to disappear from the earth - and, yet, that's what could happen if SPORT hunting of them continues. Could I be wrong? Of course!. I HOPE I'm wrong. I suspect that I was hunting long before you were born and in a lot of places. Disagree with me, as you like. I just don't like being insulted in the process.

Gerry375,
Regulated sport hunting is based on having a harvestable surplus of animals to hunt. In other words, not enough critters to sustain a viable population, no hunting season. In WY, we have a quota system for mountain lions and black bears. Hunters have to register their kills, and once those quotas are reached, the season is closed. One assumes that wolves would be handled the same way (in those parts of WY where they would be considered trophy game under the current draft state management plan). In areas of the state besides NW WY they would be considered a "predatory animal" like a coyote and would be subject to harvest at any time. From what I've seen, our G&F has done a good job managing mountain lions and black bears with the quota system, and as long as there are viable populations of these animals, there is no reason we shouldn't have a hunting season on them. Unregulated illegal harvest and habitat loss are much more serious concerns to address, because those are factors that could eventually lead to a season being closed.

Mt Elk Hunter: I apologize for the oversight in not inviting you to the Bozeman Gunshow!
Sorry! Next time I will buy breakfast for you!
I had just pulled in from the west coast the night before and was woozy from driving for 12 hours! Lame excuse I know for not getting hold of you!
Yes in fact there was a fence at the bottom of the slope these creatures were interacting on!
By steep I am guessing a 12 or 15 degree slope.
Predators!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

GERRY375 - I also don't want them to disappear from the earth - and, yet, that's what could happen if SPORT hunting of them continues. Could I be wrong? Of course!. I HOPE I'm wrong.

Yep, Gerry375, as for Mountain lions (cougars), you are dead wrong.

Other than in Kalifornia where the Marxist Socialist inspired bliss ninnies and animal rights idiots got Mountain lion hunting banned FOREVER, and where the Mountain lions now are literaly overrunning the place and decimating the deer herds, the western States all have Mountain lion hunting seasons... and lots of Mountain lions to go along with them.

In no way, shape or form, is "sport hunting" going to exterminate the Mountain lions. They are elusive and very difficult to hunt, even with dogs! (I know: I've been there.)

In Idaho, the Mountain lion season runs from Aug. 31, through the next year, ending March 30. Limit is one, but two in some areas where the lions are in great abundance.

Other States have various seasons on lions, and the take each year barely makes a dent in the populaton.

Your statement about "sport" hunting is very much akin to that of the animal rights/anti-hunting crowd. They damn all "sport" hunting and want it banned, claiming that hunters are not needed to "balance" Nature. Just let the Mountain lions, wolves, bears, coyotes, bobcats, foxes, etc., alone, and THEY will institute the "balance" that Nature intended.

Afterall, they claim (and it's about the only true thing they ever say), virtually NO ONE in the U.S. MUST KILL wild animals for food, or starve. Therefore, the hunters kill for the "sport" of it and "sport hunting" should be banned.

Once you advocate banning "sport" hunting of one or two animals which are well populated, you have automatically fallen into their trap. Ban this one now, ban that one next, then another, and another, ad nauseum.

( Exactly the same with the anti-gun morons. Ban handguns first. No one needs 'em! Then ban those big "sniper .50 rifles. No one needs 'em! Then ban those fast shootin' guns, you know, semi-automatic rifles and shotguns. No one needs 'em! Then ban those evil sniper bolt action things. No one needs 'em! Oh, and those cowboy lever guns shoot mighty fast, so ban them. NO one needs 'em! Pumps? Mighty fast and deadly powerful! Ban them too. No one needs 'em! No different than "Ban those sport hunters from 'sport hunting' lions.")

Without getting into the wolf argument, other than to say they must be managed, I assure you, Mountain lions (cougars) are in no danger from Mankind and his "sport" hunting.

BTW, please spare me the "I was huntin' 'fore you were born," consdescenion. You might have been born before I was (???), but I'll bet you were not hunting before I was born. (I remember Pearl Harbor. Not the movie: the event.)

Just my thoughts on the subject.

L.W.

Madgoat: I try to get to the Elk Refuge every winter and I am constantly amazed at the numbers of Coyotes I see therein and thereabouts!
Last year my younger brother and oldest son got to see some Wolves about 6 miles north of the refuge. They were just trotting along in the foot deep snow! Their "tummies" were real FULL as the image in my spotting scope made clear!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Yesterday (Tuesday March 14th) I got up early and headed for the scene of the Coyote vs Mule Deer incident! I made a stand at the downwind edge of the basin about 300 yards from where the "dying and bloody" Mule Deer was on Sunday (March 12th).
I was unable to raise any "Varmints" with my calls into the now VERY windy basin! Not even Ravens, Magpies or Eagles were seen!
I was amazed at this fact as the flying scavengers really get after the carrion here abouts come late winter!
Once I gave that up I went to the scene of the killing to indeed look into this matter anotomically speaking!
I could not find the Deer!
I could not find blood - I could not find anything in the way of scavenging!
The ground was bare and frozen!
The only thing I can imagine is that a Cougar came along (or was there all the time lurking around the scene and "laying low" because of our presence alongside the two lane road!
No Mule Deer were observed in that basin either giving a slight bit of creedence to my NEW theory!
So off I went to the east enjoying Montana as it should be enjoyed with Rifle and ammo and good optics along!
After I had my fill of shooting Varmints north south and east of Ennis, Montana I headed home. In the exact spot I had searched for the dead (wounded?) Mulie there now fed 12 Mule Deer and they did not even look up as I crept by them not 200 yards away!
I am puzzled as to what would be able to take away (out of that rim rocked surrounded basin!) from that scene a Mule Deer. The Bear are still hibernating and Wolves (of which there are many in the area) would have dined right there! As would Coyotes. The only thing I can think of is a Mt. Lion (of which there are many in the area!) made off with it soon after we left the sceneSunday!
A Montana type "mystery" - to be sure.
Snapper: Boy that sure looks like a couple of Coyotes getting the best of that Deer!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

L.W.

I may or may not respond to your post in detail later - but very definitely I was hunting before you were born - and before Pearl Harbor. (I was shooting chipmunks off a back stone wall with a Savage Model 3, single shot 22 when I was 8 in 1938)

Regards

quote:

L.W.

I may or may not respond to your post in detail later - but very definitely I was hunting before you were born - and before Pearl Harbor. (I was shooting chipmunks off a back stone wall with a Savage Model 3, single shot 22 when I was 8 in 1938)

Regards

Nope, sorry Gerry375. I was born in 1937, so if you were popping 'monks in '38, I was already kicking and screaming by a year.

I started hunting Red Fox squirrels at about the same age as you were when smoking the 'monks. (North Arkansas.) My rifle was an old single shot Winchester bolt .22 with the stock cut down that I had to manually cock before shooting. (My brother still has it.)

L.W.

gerry375 wrote:

quote:

You don't live among cougars and wolves. Westerners who do are better qualified to talk about them.

I couldn't agree more!!! (So why are you spouting off from NEW YORK? Boy, that's really a WESTERN state!)

I have significant ties to the West and therefore feel as though I have a stake in its future and decision-making regarding such things as cougars and wolves -- much unlike some New Yorker making P.E.T.A.-type statements and wanting all sport hunting of wolves and cougars to be banned.

gerry375 wrote:

quote:

You don't live among cougars and wolves

That just goes to show you don't know much about the cougar -- or about Texas for that matter.

There are lots of mountain lion in the state, and from southern Brewster County through the trans-pecos region, the populations are truly thriving. And the sightings in other regions are becoming more common every day.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
<snip>
I went to the scene of the killing to indeed look into this matter anotomically speaking!
I could not find the Deer!
I could not find blood - I could not find anything in the way of scavenging!
The ground was bare and frozen!
The only thing I can imagine is that a Cougar came along (or was there all the time lurking around the scene and "laying low" because of our presence alongside the two lane road!
No Mule Deer were observed in that basin either giving a slight bit of creedence to my NEW theory!
<snip>
I am puzzled as to what would be able to take away (out of that rim rocked surrounded basin!) from that scene a Mule Deer. The Bear are still hibernating and Wolves (of which there are many in the area) would have dined right there! As would Coyotes. The only thing I can think of is a Mt. Lion (of which there are many in the area!) made off with it soon after we left the sceneSunday!
A Montana type "mystery" - to be sure.
Snapper: Boy that sure looks like a couple of Coyotes getting the best of that Deer!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Have you considered or simply discounted the possibility of two legged scavengers cleaning
up the site?

VarmintGuy. I have placed a dead cow 250 yd. from my house with the idea of shooting 'yotes from 'bait' The next morning it was stormy and I didn't expect any action. On the 2nd morning I set up on my deck with a coffee and 240Gibbs. As it got light I couldn't find the carcass. I went to check it out. Cow was gone. Lock,stock and barrel. I followed a drag mark (from hide) about 200 yd. to the creek,finding ribs and leg bone scattered everywhere On the bank were found some strips of hide. That's it from probably 500 lb. old cow. Gone in 2 days. This was the quickest I've had one disappear. They usually last near a week. 'yotes seem to know when the dinner bell is rung and come for miles to cash in. I have seen a single 'yote take down antelope and young deer, usually in the snow. I have shot coyotes chasing deer and eating at fresh kills. Coyotes here can be 70 lb. as they can be on the 'high line' near Culbertson Mt. Here they are bold enough to kill dogs and cats in town. At White City, a small town near here a 'yote took the mitt off a girl on her way to school.
I haven't been out much this winter, back surgery, but most guys are saying they are more skittish this winter. I have only got 16. Normally somewhere between 70 and 100.
I also missed the Bozeman gunshow. Normally we go to our place at Georgetown Lk. with snowmobiles for a couple of weeks and catch the show on the way home. Next year for sure. Mark

Hey Snapper:

I believe that photo was taken a few years ago near Albany, NY. Notice there is no snow, the deer looks real healthy and is an adult.

Further, I seem to remember that deer was killed by those coyotes.

quote:

by VG:
The VarmintMother is recovering slowly from her heart surgery and was actually doing pretty well when I left Saturday...

Hey VG, Best wishes to her for a speedy recovery.

We are blessed to live in a time of amazing medical practices.

35404: I am amazed at your "disappearing" cow story! I have seen Elk carcasses and Deer carcasses disappear quickly (a week) myself but it must have been a team effort to get that carcass "done" and moved in two days!
Come to think of it my carcass (Deer) that I originally posted about was "gone in two days"!
I have another amazing story for you regarding your beautiful lake - Georgetown Lake!
About 10 years ago before I moved to Montana I left Seattle, Washington heading for an Antelope Hunt in far southeastern Montana. I stopped halfway to Alzada (in far SE Montana) at your Georgetown Lake! I intended to do some fishing on the north shore and sleep in the boat launch area near there. I caught several huge Brook Trout and a couple of double chubby Rainbows! I let the Rainbows go and gutted the HUGE Brookies! I was throwing the entrails into the lake and the gulls were making short work of them! One of my throws was errant and the entrails went about 10 yards down the shoreline and a Fox darted out from the rocks and gobbled up the fare! I then intentionally threw towards his nearby position the gills of the fish! He lapped them up and I was so amused by his closeness and his staring at me I cut the tails off of the Brookies and threw them to him! He gulped them up as well! I then was out of "stuff" to throw him but decided to cut the heads off of the Brookies and he ate them as well! I put the Brookies on ice and went to make camp. The fish were intended as a present for my long time rancher friend and his wife who love fresh trout but don't get much of it living there in warm water fish country.
Well one of my Hunting partners that I met over east was travelling in his own rig and when I left him I also gave him my fishing outfit and told him where I caught the HUGE Brookies (near the pump house!) and to watch out for the Fox if he caught any fish!
Much to my surprise when he returned my fishing equipment some weeks later he relayed how he had not only caught many huge trout but the few he did kill and clean the Fox came and ate the entrails out of his HAND!
I am happy when I get 10 Coyotes a year! I get a lot of enjoyment out of taking folks out and calling in Coyotes for them. I have treated folks from New York, Minnesota, Conneticut and California to some Montana style Coyote Calling!
I hope your back heals quickly and completely!
I always make the July opener on Georgetown Lake - I think I caught and released 35 fish
in a half day there last opener! The lightning drove us off the lake around 2:00 PM!
I live 95 miles from Georgetwon Lake. Hope to see you there some day!
Keep an eye out for the "friendly" Fox around your place!
One more Georgetown Lake stoy before I go! I was trolling my fly in Stuart Mill Bay there two years ago and hooked a big Rainbow. I was in my pontoon boat and the wind was pushing me along towards the shallows there. I finally got the big 'Bow caught and released and I heard some splashing behind me! I turned around and looked and the wind had blown me to within 25 yards of a, feeding in the shallows, Bull Moose! His horns were in velvet and he was quite the sight splashing AWAY (thankfully) from me!
Long live Georgetwon Lake!
Keep after the Coyotes!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hotcore: Thank you very much for the well wishes regarding my mom! I just got off the phone with her and she seems upbeat. Her heart operation was a success but the stress and impact on her 80 year old body have taken a toll!
If we can get her fully "re-energized" we are hoping she can enjoy more fully the rest of her life! Her heart had a bad valve resulting in poor oxygenation and circulation of her blood. Things are looking up and your concern and well wishes are greatly appreciated!
Seems hard to believe my mom is 80 (I am 58). She was born on a homesteaded ranch in eastern Oregon. Her whole family enjoyed Mule Deer Hunting and on occassion they harvested Bear as well!
She really prefers Elk meat and I take her some when I or my friends harvest one!
I prefer Mule Deer Hunting and Antelope Hunting but I have now taken 6 Elk and really enjoy sharing my game meat with her!
Thanks again.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

I just got off the phone with her and she seems upbeat.

I think it was unintended, but talk about a clever pun! Godspeed to your Mom.