Kudu, you need to go to the library (you know, the large square building with all the books) and look up a place called Isle Royale. Have someone read about it to you, and maybe you will get that one brain cell you have left to synapse...and for that moment, have a clear thought for a change (free of the garbage you feed that thing in the mean time).
I can tell you're a regular "good ol boy" who believe that everything with canine teeth and claws is bad, and if it eats furry little critters we should hate it more. I'll be the first to agree that the wolf deal was a bad idea. However, there are many other things that wolves can't hold a candle to in regards to killing wildlife. Hell, there are some places in Wyoming, that cars regularly kill between 500-800 deer a year-in a 10 mile stretch (Nugget Canyon between Sage Jct. and Kemmerer). Look at all the houses and development popping up..mostly on deer and elk winter range. Oil and gas development is royally screwing up our antelope, deer, and elk migration routes...permanently shutting them off.

NOBODY SEEMS TO GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ANY OF THIS!! Predator and prey relationships have been going on since the dawn of time, otherwise when the Mayflower landed the only thing that would have been on this continent would be a wolf.

In my mind, wolves are small potatoes compared to the big picture that you have put the blinders on to.

MG

Yet another end-of-the-road, out-of-state, sociopath has apparently relocated in MT... just what we need.

Island Royal, naturally occuring packs, Wyoming, introduced. Island Royal, an island, Wyoming wide open and no boundries! Unlimited food supply! There is a difference according to the Wy G&F. But with your unlimited cranial, pro wolf, pro liberal domination and ideals, I am sure you doubt them to.

You are not going to stop urbinazation, Wyoming just grew to 506,000 according to the latest census. More people, less land and open places. Less habitat, more unlimited preditors, drought, and increased hunting pressure will mean less opportunity to all of us and your road hunting habits will diminish entirely! Yes prey and preditor relationships have been in place for a millenium, but this is 2004 not 1804. Times change, the wolf is in place to limit hunting and even help end it here in Wyoming. I don't have to like any of it and I will bitch and moan all I want.

Amen.

Tonight on TV they reported that Idaho is the 4th fastest growing state, our neighbor! None of this has any thing to do with the RMEF and B&C. But like the thread started SCREW THEM! And the wolves!

VARMIT GUYS POST UPSETS YOU DOESN"T IT BRAD! He makes good points, true and to the point. You and MADGOAT being liberal democrats hate to be told anything. Take a minute and read Varmitguys post to MADGOAT would you?

You two read between the lines anyway!

Madgoat:

Quote:

---

Look at all the houses and development popping up..mostly on deer and elk winter range.

---

Kudu56:

Quote:

---

You are not going to stop urbinazation, Wyoming just grew to 506,000 according to the latest census. More people, less land and open places. Less habitat, ...

---

From where I sit, it looks like the two of you do "agree" on that issue.

Same can be said for the town I grew up in the country near a town of 1,400 people. Now it is a few either side of 50,000. And EVERY ONE OF THE EXTRA 48,600 people are living on a lot of ground I used to hunt. Seems like a lot of romancing going on that is unlikely to stop.

Now Kudu56, I certainly am not trying to toss gas on the fire when I ask these next questions, just trying to understand.

1. Is it not a good thing the RMEF is doing when they "preserve the habitat" for all of us to use? If not, I'd appreciate your thoughts on how that is bad.

2. Dosn't that "preservation" preclude folks from building on it? (I realize some of it is simply gaining "Trespass Rights".)

No need to go into the "wolf" stuff, I do understand about that.

drab brad: Typical futile, immature and berift of any argument posting you made there!
Why don't you try and act like a mature man for once and refute anything I have posted!
Or do you prefer to make it a habit of acting childlike in the face of serious situations?
Keep sucking your thumb there brad while Hunting opportunities are going out the window (or more correctly "down the gullet" of Wolves)!
Your inability to refute EVEN one thing I have stated grants me credibility over you and your contentions (immature rants!).
You, are contributing nothing what so ever bradlee to this situation! And to trying to solve it for the benefit of Montana and the Elk and Big Game herds therein!
Your immaturity shows nothing except your disrespect for Montana and for the Elk.
This obviously is a more serious situation than you have the maturity to deal with bradlee, so step aside and let real men, real Hunters and those really concerned about Montana and the welfare of Big Game in the Rocky Mountains handle it!
Go back to your room and sulk little buddy!
Thanks for NOTHING rmef!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

madgoat: If I may try to interject some reality into your contention by asking this question?
Do you honestly believe urban sprawl and/or cars are killing more Elk than the recently introduced Wolves?
If (beyond any reason!) your answer is "yes" to that question then how do you explain the sportsmens successful efforts over the last many decades to bring Elk populations to record levels virtually everywhere EXCEPT where the Wolves are dominating?
And, in fact, killed one herd alone off from 19,000 Elk down to 8,000 from 1995 to 2,003???
Did someone build a shit load of houses in that area and the Game biologists are just full of shit with their census numbers and observations?
I think not - I think YOU are wrong! The Wolves are a much more imminent threat to our Game herds than roads and houses! After all the roads have been around since long before 1995 when the decimation of the Elk herd cited began! That herds plummet to less than HALF its original size in less than 8 years WAS caused by Wolves! There is NO doubt in any reasonable persons mind about that!
For you to be correct, in your wild ascertion, then SOMEONE would have to be running over with their cars and killing with their houses 114 Elk a month in that one area, every month of that 8 year period! I don't think that is possible and I am positive it did not happen in that area where the Wolves ARE known to be way over populated!
I emphatically contend that the Wolves are much more likely to have killed off those 11,000 Elk than cars and houses! Remember, again, the roads in that area were there long before 1995 and I doubt the roads all of a sudden became intent on killing 114 Elk a month where they had not been killing any before that!?!?
Are you aware that 70,000 Deer are killed every year by cars in Pennsylvania? This is very much like your irrelevant statement regarding the Deer losses in the 10 mile stretch. The "real threat" facing the Elk like the Deer in that stretch is they are dead. But the Deer are contending with the car losses! The Elk in many areas ARE NOT! Can you grasp that?
I have Hunted Wyoming enough to know that Deer, Antelope, Wild Turkeys, Elk and even the Big Horns in some areas are getting along pretty well with humans as their numbers are increasing - except where the Wolves are killing off the herds! And the Wolves are multiplying way beyond even what your greenie friends even wanted!
That is my irrefutable contention - the Wolves are now and will in the future destroy human Hunting opportunities of many types of Big Game.
Your efforts and focus are more needed to be directed at halting the unwarranted and un-needed explosion of Wolves amongst our Big Game herds!
I have seen no one express the view that all things with fang and claws be exterminated - that is an immature and ineffectual contention on your part. But, the Wolf numbers are now, nearly double what even the greenies wanted!
Do you think that is a good thing for those of us that have worked so hard to grow large and manageable (huntable) Big Game herds! Is it a good thing for the ELK?
It is a moral and economic shame to waste the resource (Elk herds and other Big Game herds) that we have worked so many decades to propogate, down the gullets of over populated, introduced Wolves!
You sir, appear to be very misguided, uninformed and UNFORTUNATELY very, overly - green!
Control the Wolves before we suffer decades of lost Hunting opportunities due to the useless over Wolfization of the Rockies!
I look forward to even ONE credible answer from you of my few questions posed to you!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

. Is it not a good thing the RMEF is doing when they "preserve the habitat" for all of us to use? If not, I'd appreciate your thoughts on how that is bad.

2. Dosn't that "preservation" preclude folks from building on it? (I realize some of it is simply gaining "Trespass Rights".)

I won't argue that the preservation thing is not good. It is "GREAT"

But the bottom line is, the RMEF's mission statement,it is to preserve and protect elk, yet they don't condemn the illegal introdcution of Canadian Grey Wolves. In reality they supported it. We have yet to see the full consequences of this dastardly deed.

It was on the Wyoming news tonight:
Jemenez touting the leveling off of wolf populations in the park. But he said the packs out side the park continue to grow at just over 6%. He also said he is keeping numbers under control by the extermination of 28 wolves in the past year.

You injected something, but it doesn't smell like reality. By your logic elk became extinct hundreds of years ago because the wolves ate them all when wolf populations were uncontrolled. Or maybe you mean only transplanted wolves eat or kill meat, and native born wolves are vegetarian.

You and kudu56 are little-picture-thinkers, and that's not the major threat to elk or other big game (re-read the first paragraph).

Your bitch is you don't like the wolves and I don't think you much care whether they kill one elk or 1,000 elk. You don't like the policy that allowed them to be re-introduced, and you'll argue against common sense and logic, and throw out any numbers that you think justify your position, even if they make no sense.

Looks like this thread has about run its course.

I think what most are trying to relate is that the sprawling urbanization will still provide enough wintering ground for what is left of the elk and deer herds when the wolves get done with them. Go back and look at the elk population numbers when wolves were here before eradication. They were pretty small. I believe around the turn of the century the entire elk population was about 500,000. I would bet 500,000 elk could survive urban sprawl.

Aside from that I would hope Wyoming would come up with a viable plan to manage the wolves so they can be delisted and CONTROLLED! Idaho and Montana have and the longer Wyoming waits the more wolves we aquire. The more wolves the less big game. I know they are hell bent on getting their own plan in action but why not try to change it after they have taken over the wolf control. Once they have been delisted and the population stays above the designated level I would bet the feds will have a harder time slapping Wyomings hand for controlling it their way.

Just my .02

Hot Core, good point! Merry Christmas to you also!

KENSCO, little pictures are, you and the RMEF saying nothing is wrong, the big picture is, my picture, there is some thing wrong and one of those things is the illegal reintorduction of Canadian Grey wolves back into the Yellowstone ecosystem. Bringing about lower numbers of big game species in the Yellowstone area. The park was fine, but when they left the park they should be fair game. Mike Jemenez stated on Wyoming TV, that the wolf has leveled off at a 6% growth rate. I don't call that leveling off, that is pretty good growth by any standard. Six percent more wolves means less big game in this area, wether you hunt it or not. I don't hunt as much as I used to, but I still enjoy watching the elk, deer, moose, and sheep. And speaking of moose those numbers are down so drastically that many hunt areas are being combined with lower quota's and more restrictions. Wolves? Bears? Habitat? All three I am sure.

Go back and bury your head in the sand with Madgoat and Brad, with your thoughts of "it will all take care of itself". Back to your blissful sleep of warm and fuzzy, disney, and when Hillary gets elected all of your worries will be resolved.

Nothing has been said about livestock loss. We all know a calf or lamb is a lot easier to run down than any kind of wildlife.

Every time livestock gets hit, it makes the papers. F&W, G&F, and wolf keepers respond fairly quick with damage payments. They have denied a few payments becuase no proof of wolf kill. From early fall until spring the majority of the livestock do not inhabit the same areas as the wolf and elk. Livestock is moved to winter pastures in lower elevations. Even though during winter the wolves follow, the ones Jemenez got caught tagging on private property were pretty low and in an area that cattle winter. In the desert area west of Worland a pipeline patrolman(flying) reported a small pack feeding on a dead horse last winter. It was confirmed by G&F and as far as anyone knows they went back up when spring rolled around.

HOT CORE - "If any of you are old enough NRA members, you might remember an Exec VP warren cassady. Back when the DEMOCRATS were running totally wild erroding our Rights, cassady felt the correct course of action was to "compromise with the DEMOCRATS". Of course that means "giving up segments of our Rights". cassady supported the DEMOCRATS banning certain firearms because they were semi-autos, eliminate large capacity magazines and on and on."
____________________________________________________________
HOT CORE, you are soooo correct!!!!!

Warren Cassady, that wimpy, woosey, effete smarmy Boston lawyer nearly destroyed the NRA, while being more than happy to sell out our 2nd Amendment Rights.

Did you ever meet that sissified wimp?? What a yo yo!! During the Prop. 15 fight in Calif., in 1982, a proposition that if approved by the voters, would have outlawed eventually all handguns, and then all long guns, in Calif., I was heavily involved in the fight to thwart the Proposition. Warren Cassady had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the fight to use NRA money to fight the communistnazis who had GIGANTIC $$$$, plus all the media in Calif., to throw against us. He wanted to, as you said before, "compromise" with the communistnazis. You know, "Act civilized. Can't we all get along?" etc.

Fortunately, Harlon Carter and Neal Knox, and others, came into the fight, and with the help of the NRA, Calif. Rifle & Pistol Assoc., and thousands of grass roots gun owning activists, we beat the communistnazis, 64%/36%.

I was at the "victory" party thrown at the LAX Airport Hilton the night of the election, and while talking with Carter, Knox, and Cassady, I got the distinct impression that Cassady was kinda disappointed we won.

So... yep, I'm old enough to remember how it was back then with Cassady and the "appeasement" Board of Directors of the NRA. Thankfully, those days are gone... although there are still a few of the "appeasement" Directors on on the Board.

BTW, for those of you who don't know about the Prop 15 fight, aside from NRA help and grass roots donations, Robert Peterson, owner of Peterson Publications at that time (GUNS & AMMO, HANDGUNS, HUNTING magazine) donated $1,000,000 to help us out.) So if you ever run into Bob Peterson, say "Thank you."

FWIW. L.W.

Kensco:
I'm not well informed about the RMEF and the wolf controversy but I think I agree with you about the other organizations whose main function is to raise money to support cushy high paid jobs.. Oh sure, they'll bribe a Senator or Congressman once in a while and then make a big deal out of it in the liberal media.
The first to come to mind is the Holy Grail of gun owners, the (gasp) NRA.
Example: Respond to one of thier requests for donations by sending $5.00. In a couple of weeks they'll up the ante to $15.00 or $20.00. If you take the bait in a few months they are asking for $100.00 and sending you literature on how to set up a cell in your nieghbor hood to get your friends involved.
The next one is SCI, which I don't know much about other than one of thier TV celebrities is a guy named Jim Baker, who used to be head mooch for the NRA. Coincedence?
I would like to see a list of executives and employees of these organizations showing what thier income is including perks. I don't expect that to happen soon.

As you said, Dakota, you are not well informed and you dont know much about those organizations. I agree with you.

DAKOTA - "Oh sure, they'll bribe a Senator or Congressman once in a while and then make a big deal out of it in the liberal media.

The first to come to mind is the Holy Grail of gun owners, the (gasp) NRA."

____________________________________________________________

Dakota, no matter your distaste for the (gasp, Holy Grail) NRA, there is only one reason, and ONE reason alone, that you own your firearms today, LEGALLY! The NRA has fought for years for you to keep your guns.



Yeah, I know it can be sometimes irritating to get those incessant pleas for money from the NRA... but the communistnazis who intend to confiscate YOUR guns, have unlimited gazillions of $$$$$ to throw against us, plus, they control all the mainstream media, other than a few radio talk show hosts... and several of the commentators on Fox News.



Is the NRA perfect? No, but they are still the best we gunowners have, no matter that we sometimes lose a fight.



Your use of the term "cells" to define gun owners who are urged by the NRA to organize to try and fight the communistnazis is pejorative and extremely disingenuous. That is a trem used to describe communist terrorist groups.



If you choose to not support the NRA and castigate it, that is your Right. You will be loved by all the communistnazis from Hollywood to New York, and Seattle to Miami, as their hatred of the NRA and the Bill of Rights is profound and visceral. But, just be aware too that those of us who carry you on our backs, consider you to be a heavy liability if you don't help. You know, like a parasite.



L.W.

Wow, Several new members of the "You Are Ignoring this User" club on account of this thread. I just don't need to waste my time with pissing contests.

Thanks everyone, for reminding me to cut my annual check to RMEF and NRA. I think I'll make them nice fat ones! I'm feeling extra generous today.



'Tis the season!